Advice on second cycle (TestP, trenA, dbol / winny)

[PapaNoel]

I went and did a huge bloodtest which should have all markers related to steriods and overall health.

Sadly I wasnt smart enough todo this before my first cycle so have no reference. Hopefully it wont look like shit but would be very happy to get some input on my values
Aiming to start next cycle first week of september. All depends on the bloodwork ofcourse

 

[PapaNoel]

Reading my own post a few months later I kinda get why most of you considered me crazy lol...

I've changed the cycle and removed winstrol and changed doses.
Will run 75mg test p and 50mg tren daily with dbol for 4 weeks 20-30mg daily.
I'll also run HGH for the full cycle at 2ui twice a day.

Finally got my blood tests back.
I had almost max value of test
Range was 10-35 nmol/L and I had 34

Here is the doctor summary of my blood tests:
No real suprises to be honest. My diet was shit and I did test after a weekend in amsterdam...
Im on 10k dvitamin daily now.
I've changed my diet as well.
I plan on doing another bloodtest before cycle (1st november) and then once a month for 3 months more.

What do you guys think of the blood test and doctor comments?

Your blood value (hemoglobin value) is well.
Your blood lipids are very good but your cholesterol distribution is somewhat disadvantageous, as evidenced by a slightly elevated ApoB / ApoA1 ratio. What is sought for men is a quota of less than 0.7, which can often be affected by dietary change or with increased exercise. In case of uncertainty, discuss this with your healthcare center.
Your solid blood sugar is supposedly elevated, which may be due to insufficient fasting or taking of some medicines before sampling. If, on the other hand, you have been adequately set for the sampling (10 to 12 hours), it may be useful to revise your diet and exercise habits as well as a new test on solid blood sugar at the next blood sampling session.
Your leukocytes (white blood cells) are slightly elevated, which is quite unspecified and the value may be increased in infection / inflammation, drug therapy or physical / mental stress.
Your levels of liver enzymes ALT and AST are just above the upper reference value, which can sometimes be seen in mild liver effects of alcohol consumption or because of the ingestion of some drugs but which may also be a normal variant without association with ill health. This should not cause any concern at the moment, but should be followed up with a new test in 2-3 months to ensure that your values ***8203;***8203;are normalized.
Your Vitamin D is low and is at a level classified as Vitamin D insufficiency (the level rated as optimal is 75-250 nmol / L). Low values ***8203;***8203;may be due to insufficient sun exposure or unilateral diet and can often be corrected with increased sun exposure or dietary supplements containing Vitamin D.
Otherwise, no deviation is observed in your test answers.

 

[scorob777]

Those seem like reasonable doses, and a reasonable plan - assuming you have the AI and PCT sorted out.

Blood test results are nothing very interesting, perhaps some telltale signs of AAS use, like lipid ratio a bit out of whack, slightly elevated ALT and AST.

The vitamin D I find interesting. I always test low, and I'm now taking 10,000 IU per day, 5,000 IU from two different pills - one solid and one gel. Along with vitamin K2. I'm curious to see if 10k works for me on my next doctor's blood test.

And.... a weekend in Amsterdam, I could use one of those.

 

[PapaNoel]

Those seem like reasonable doses, and a reasonable plan - assuming you have the AI and PCT sorted out.

Blood test results are nothing very interesting, perhaps some telltale signs of AAS use, like lipid ratio a bit out of whack, slightly elevated ALT and AST.

The vitamin D I find interesting. I always test low, and I'm now taking 10,000 IU per day, 5,000 IU from two different pills - one solid and one gel. Along with vitamin K2. I'm curious to see if 10k works for me on my next doctor's blood test.

And.... a weekend in Amsterdam, I could use one of those.

I've been getting so conflicting answers about running an AI for my cycle.
Some claim I must due to water retention from dbol.
Some say my doses are to low and i'll get sides instead.

What would you recommend ?
Armidex 1mg, every other day while on dbol ?

My PCT is 4.5 weeks. Week 11, 12, 13 is just clomid 50mg. Sounds resonable ?

week 9----------------------------
PCT
Will wait 3 days from last injection so androgen blood levels go down.
HGH 4iu / 2 times ED
Clomid 200mg first day (2 doses) / After 100mg / day on 1 doses.
Nolva 40mg first day (2 doses) / After 20mg / day on 1 doses.

week 10----------------------------
HGH 4iu / 2 times ED
Clomid 100mg on 1 dose
Nolva 20mg on 1 dose

Thanks for your time m8. Means a lot !

 

[scorob777]

I've been getting so conflicting answers about running an AI for my cycle. -- At the end of the day you need to decide for yourself. Nobody giving you advice is a doctor, and even if they were this AAS cycling is always going to be more bro science that actual, due to lack of clinical trials, legal status, etc.

Some claim I must due to water retention from dbol. ---- I personally don't give a shit about water retention, but I do care about elevated blood pressure, breaking out in zits all over my back, and having any kind of negative impacts to sex life.

Some say my doses are to low and i'll get sides instead. --- 75 mg/day test is roughly 500 mg/wk. Pretty standard, and definitely effective. 50 mg/day tren is a fucking sledge hammer, if this isn't effective you should probably give up. 20-30 mg/day dbol is a bit low.

What would you recommend ? --- Based on 525 mg/wk Test P alone 0.25 mg adex EOD
Armidex 1mg, every other day while on dbol ? --- I honestly don't know how much dbol aromatizes compared to test. If I assume same as test, and 30 mg/day adex dose goes to 0.45 mg EOD (close enough to 0.5 mg EOD)

My PCT is 4.5 weeks. Week 11, 12, 13 is just clomid 50mg. Sounds reasonable ? The reason for a large clomid dose at the start of PCT is in case you still have high levels of AAS in your system. In your case with the short esters you won't for very long, so you could think of reducing the clomid dose to 1st week 100 mg/d and 2-4 50 mg/day. Nolva why not run 40 mg/day for weeks 1 & 2, then drop to 20mg/d 3 & 4?

 

[PapaNoel]

Fair enough. I try to research and listen so much to everything that i get overwhelmed with all the info and often confuse myself AND others lol.. It really feels like the more i learn the less i actually know.
It doesn't help everyone i know IRL seems to be a self proclaimed guru and "his way" is always the right one ;(

So that would explain the insane pump headaches i got mid cycle. Sex life wasnt affected at all, on the contrary haha. I got some backzits 2nd week into clomid that lasted for about a month after i stopped PCT. Nobody i asked knew why and my PT just said hormonal imbalance post cycle.
I'll follow your advice and ill run 0.25mg EOD. Its 10000% worth it if i dont get those headaches again. (My PT did bloodpressure tests and said it was due to blood pressure. I tried all "home remedies" i could find but nothing helped.)
That headache was always there but manageable except for leg day which became almost impossible bcuz of it. Never got it outside training.

Do you think 50mg tren is to much ?
My PT said 25mg would be "ideal" for me so I just went 20, 30, 30, 30. (only running dbol week 1-4).
Is 30, 40, 40, 40 better ?

I followed my PT's advice on PCT but more and more im realizing his glory days was 10 years ago and A LOT have changed since then...
Yours sound alot smarter and based on facts tho so ill follow that. Thanks

Again m8, i really appreicate your time and input. So tired of my "sources" IRL and "general internet".
So excited for this cycle i feel like a kid all over again waiting for christmas lol

 

[oldmusclemike]

There are man sides of High n low (E2) Estradiol see below some of them. :

Low Estrogen Side Effects:

Osteoporosis (weakened bones) ; (long-term low levels)
- Poor sex drive
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Skin quality diminishes
- Depression
- Poor sense of wellbeing & poor quality of life

High Estrogen Side Effects:

- Gynecomastia is not the only one.
- Anxiety & panic attacks
- Depression
- Erectile dysfunction
- Water retention
- High blood pressure
- Loss of balance/instability/dizziness
- Respiratory related concerns
- Irritability
- Low libido
- Insomnia
- Prostate related issues
- Crying like a little girl and being emotional all the time

It is the control of your Estrogen that is the reason for an AI. It is preventative medicine. SO don't listen to Bro-science. This is one reason we get BW and pay attention when we now the sides , to our body and listen to it. Yes a low type dose of Test but you should try a low dose AI and check bloods.

Also 3 weeks of Winstrol if I have that right is pissing in the north wind. All you need it not for a show is the Tren all the way. The Winstrol will not do much in that short of interval. NO less then 4 -6 weeks

 

[PapaNoel]

There are man sides of High n low (E2) Estradiol see below some of them. :
High Estrogen Side Effects:
- Water retention
- High blood pressure
- dizziness (only in relation to high BP / end of sets)
- Irritability (very mild, not sure if it counted. Im always irritated lol)
- Insomnia
- Crying like a little girl and being emotional all the time

It is the control of your Estrogen that is the reason for an AI. It is preventative medicine. SO don't listen to Bro-science. This is one reason we get BW and pay attention when we now the sides , to our body and listen to it. Yes a low type dose of Test but you should try a low dose AI and check bloods.
Also 3 weeks of Winstrol if I have that right is pissing in the north wind. All you need it not for a show is the Tren all the way. The Winstrol will not do much in that short of interval. NO less then 4 -6 weeks

Thanks for the reply

I did not suffer from low estrogen effects at all but I did nail some of the high estrogen side effects. (I edited out the ones i did not have/experience)
I didn't cry like a little girl haha but i did feel more emotional then usual (I'm kinda "numb" when it comes to empathy in general)

After talking with both my PT and supplier I/We have decided to NOT run winstrol this cycle and instead focus on bulking now and optionally doing a "cutting cycle" for summer, maybe with test + winny only.
Because of "life" my cycle got postponed but I will start second week of jan 2018

I will get another BW done before I start cycle. Then once every month until cycle is done. I know its bit overkill but im curious to see how my body reacts and feels without having to guess

Thanks for all the tips and advice. Really appriecate it!
This is my final plan (subject to small changes based on advice from here!)


week 1----------------------------
Day 1 0.5mg Adex / EOD
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
dbol 30mg / 3 times / day
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

week 2----------------------------
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
dbol 40mg / 3 times / day
0.5mg Adex / EOD
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

week 3----------------------------
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
dbol 40mg / 3 times / day
0.5mg Adex / EOD
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

week 4----------------------------
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
dbol 40mg / 3 times / day
0.5mg Adex / EOD
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

week 5----------------------------
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
dbol 30mg / 3 times / day
0.5mg Adex / EOD
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

week 6----------------------------
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
0.25mg Adex / EOD
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

week 7----------------------------
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
0.25mg Adex / EOD
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

week 8----------------------------
Test p 80mg / ED
tren a 40mg / ED
0.25mg Adex / EOD
HCG 250iu / Monday/Thursdays

----------------------------------
PCT PCT PCT PCT PCT PCT PCT PCT PCT
week 9----------------------------
HCG 1000iu / ED (3 days total. Ending on PCT start.)
Will wait 3 days from last injection so androgen blood levels go down.
Clomid 100mg / ED
Nolva 40mg / ED

week 10----------------------------
Clomid 50mg / ED
Nolva 40mg / ED

week 11----------------------------
Clomid 50mg / ED
Nolva 20mg / ED

week 12----------------------------
Clomid 50mg / ED
Nolva 20mg / ED

week 13----------------------------
Clomid 50mg / ED
Nolva 20mg / ED

 

[PapaNoel]

On everyone's unanimous advice i'm gonna add HCG to my cycle at 250 iu twice a week (Mon/Thurs) for week 1-7.5

Is there anything else I've missed, neglected, should think about or just plain thinking/doing it wrong ?
Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

 

[PapaNoel]

Tried to research my supplements.

Does this look good, or I'm i missing something crucial ?

Training supplements:
BCAA powder
AMINO tabs
Endless supply of whey protein.
Creatine
Glutamine
Glukosamin
Vitargo (special carb PWO)
L-Lysine
Beta-Alanin

Vitamin/Mineral suppelments:
Omega3
Magnisium/Zink
Kalcium/Kalium
Mangan
D-vitamin
B-vitamin komplex
B-3 vitamin (niacin)

What would you recommend for:
Healthy heart/BP / COQ10/Hawthorn berry ?
Healthy liver / Liv52 / Milkthistle powder ?
Or something else ?

Lots of questions but I'm starting soon so want to make everything "perfect" this time.
My last cycle feels like a complete failure compared to the planning and research done this time while still having the feeling I have no fucking clue what im doing lol... ;(

Thanks for your time and input!

 

[PapaNoel]

I'm aware this will probably be considered a very stupid question around here but I cant find a real answer to it

I've seen a lot of people mention you can only put on about 4-5 lbs of LMM / year, with or without AAS.
So my question is this... If you cant go over your natural genetic "muscle production", why even bother taking steroids to begin with ?
I was under the impression you could push past your genetic abilities so to speak ?

Sorry if its a lot of questions but I'm starting soon and I want this cycle to be "perfect".
Everytime i think about my first cycle i cringe a lil inside knowing both how unprepared, stupid and not realizing just how much work and effort you really need to put into it all.
I hear people call it a lifestyle...i call it a second job lol ;D

 

[PapaNoel]

Easy to recognize high Prolactin both by ED ad then the hinder of orgasm.

I saw you write this in another thread and I had this side/symptom as well.
Pretty much my whole PCT I couldn't ejaculate at all, no matter what i did/tried/time.
Was probably the best side I have ever had minus the health effects LOL...

Do you mind going into a bit more detail/techincal side as to why this happens ?
I'm no minute man but fucking for 30-60 min straight kinda made me feel superman and ehm...who wouldn't like that ability ?

 

[PapaNoel]

Last question for tonight.

Last cycle i used 21g draw and 23g needles for pinning.
No matter "where" I pinned in my delts I had pain for 1-3 days. Making it impossible to train shoulders the same day.
This time i bought, 21g, 23g, 25g, 27g needles and will mostly use 25g/27g for all pinning.

But im curious what I could have done wrong. I still got this pain when my PT injected for me, just less pain.
Any ideas why ? Never had any pain in butt/quads what so ever.

With ED pinning I'll be rotating, both ass checks, quads and delts. So about 1 area per week (I'll rotate and use butt 3 times per week i guess)
Sounds reasonable ?

Sorry for the spam tonight but its getting close and im super excited and really wanna do it right this time.
My fuckup last cycle was not listening to everyone with actual experience. (yes, yes i know, hindsight is 20/20.. )

 

[Milton]

lots of good questions, hcg for sure bro and milk thistle for the liver.
about the pip, it could be the carrier oil.

 

[PapaNoel]

Can delete this post.

 

[Old Duffer]

LOTS of questions! Good! Shows you are a planner. Good.

Couple thoughts: your pip is not the pins. It's what you were using. Could be the blend, carrier, sensitivity to something in there

Why pin ed. You'd be fine eod

Liv52 & milk thistle for me

If you're made of money then hgh, but it's gonna take some time to do its thing. A lot longer than this cycle is what I hear.

I run hcg. It's cheap enough n saves my berries

Tren should have prolactin control on have. Some folks just run a bit just to be save. Others keep E2 low and just have it on hand. Just in case

I'm guilty of way too many shakes. Get as much real protein as possible. Meat!!!

OTC supps is really up to you. I like a preworkout cuz it keeps my heart rate down a bit but kinda beats up my stomach too so :-/ I do a multi mostly for the minerals. I do D cuz it's winter here

That's a few of my opinions

 

[scorob777]

I'll second the notion on lots of questions - it is clear you are trying hard to make the best of this. This is getting down to personal opinions, so if you want mine then here they are:

Test at 560 mg/wk should be great, and with prop it will hit you fast.

Tren at 350 mg/wk is a lot. Especially for a second cycle. Be wary of sides like high blood pressure, agression that effects your relationships, and soaking the bed sheets at night. With ace you can dial it down quickly if needed. If you can hack it for 8 weeks this should be super effective.

Dbol in combination with tren - I would closely watch blood pressure and be prepared to drop it if needed. Take milk thistle and NAC for sure, tudca optional. I don't know about liv52 but cannot hurt.

AI looks good for with dbol, and without.

Tren at 350 mg/wk I don't think will need prolactin control, especially if you keep estrogen clamped down like what you laid out. But if you want you could have some caber on hand in case you see signs of ED, or cannot orgasm.

HCG is a must, cheap and effective.

HGH is a matter of opinion. The cost you described was highway robbery, I can PM you something good at a fraction of the price. The test and tren are super powerful and quickly effective, you will see big changes in 8 weeks. With HGH you *might* see a little better skin, better sleep, appetite, and maybe some fat reduction in three months, but it will be tame to non existent compared to the test and tren. Run at least 6 months for effects, and don't expect much compared to the test & tren.

For your pinning locations, again personal opinion. I hate quads and delts. Plenty of room on the old arse, though daily will get a bit bothersome. I prefer to inject with 25g.

 

[PapaNoel]

LOTS of questions! Good! Shows you are a planner. Good.

Couple thoughts: your pip is not the pins. It's what you were using. Could be the blend, carrier, sensitivity to something in there
Why pin ed. You'd be fine eod
If you're made of money then hgh, but it's gonna take some time to do its thing. A lot longer than this cycle is what I hear.

I run hcg. It's cheap enough n saves my berries

How come i only got pip in my delts and nowhere else ? I couldn't even feel it in other areas. Small shoulders ? Pinning to low ? Or just the blend/carrier oil being more noticeable in less fatty areas ?
I read ED is recommended for tren ace to avoid sides assoicated with insomnia, night sweats, aggression etc, since I'm using test prop figured I might aswell mix both in one syringe and do it ED. Also its easier for me to remember doing it ED.
I was also under the assumption ED was best for prop/ace to keep my blood levels most stable ?
From my research a lot of sleep issues and tren sides come from pinning EOD instead of ED. Any truth to that ?
Or have i misunderstood everything once again ?

Will buy HCG and skip HGH. Thanks

Im also guilty of to many shakes
My training plan is 2.5 hrs / day (15/15 min cardio/stretch) 6 days a week while also doing 90 min boxing 4 days /week.
My eating plan is 3 "proper/bulkier" meals + 2-3 smaller (meat/salad) and 2 shakes (3 on boxing nights) because of the boxing training overlaps by just 1.5-2 hours from gym and don't wanna puke during training
My appetite has always been super low(off or on) and when i just cant stomach more food, i can always luckily chug one shake down.

Thanks for your advice. Really helpful

 

[PapaNoel]

I'll second the notion on lots of questions - it is clear you are trying hard to make the best of this. This is getting down to personal opinions, so if you want mine then here they are:

Test at 560 mg/wk should be great, and with prop it will hit you fast.
Tren at 350 mg/wk is a lot. Especially for a second cycle. Be wary of sides like high blood pressure, agression that effects your relationships, and soaking the bed sheets at night. With ace you can dial it down quickly if needed. If you can hack it for 8 weeks this should be super effective.
Dbol in combination with tren - I would closely watch blood pressure and be prepared to drop it if needed. Take milk thistle and NAC for sure, tudca optional. I don't know about liv52 but cannot hurt.

AI looks good for with dbol, and without.
Tren at 350 mg/wk I don't think will need prolactin control, especially if you keep estrogen clamped down like what you laid out. But if you want you could have some caber on hand in case you see signs of ED, or cannot orgasm.

HCG is a must, cheap and effective.
HGH is a matter of opinion. The cost you described was highway robbery, I can PM you something good at a fraction of the price. The test and tren are super powerful and quickly effective, you will see big changes in 8 weeks. With HGH you *might* see a little better skin, better sleep, appetite, and maybe some fat reduction in three months, but it will be tame to non existent compared to the test and tren. Run at least 6 months for effects, and don't expect much compared to the test & tren.

For your pinning locations, again personal opinion. I hate quads and delts. Plenty of room on the old arse, though daily will get a bit bothersome. I prefer to inject with 25g.

I dropped tren to 40mg/ED for a total of 280/wk. I'd rather avoid some sides, specially high blood pressure so i'll follow your advice, you've mentioned dose is high twice now!
I could even lower dbol dosage as well if you think its wise. Dbol dosages is based on what my PT recommended, originally he wanted me to "pyramid-dose" it up and down with peaks 50 mg ED.
My initial own was 4 weeks dbol(30mg ED for 4 weeks) but PT insisted on 6 weeks so compromised with 5 weeks.(My own concern is liver damage and "safety of oral steriods in general".)
I also added HCG 250iu to be taken mondays/thursdays.

What do you think, adjust dbol dose/lenght too ? Thanks

Blood pressure is high on my prio list to combat and be preemptive about. I did not use AI last time but high BP was a problem for sure, so really wanna avoid it as it affected my training performance. Especially leg day. The "pump-headaches" were insane.
Think i'll skip HGH this time around but still tempted.

Really appreciate your input, opinions and just all the advice's and "fact checking" my constant ramble back and forth. Really, thanks man!

I'm trying my best on all levels this time. I really couldn't fathom just how much work is required before my first cycle... It insane and I'm not even trying to go on stage lol.
Gonna dedicate 3 months to just training, eating, training, sleeping, repeat.
Even taking some vacation days to be able to super focus on everything

 

[PapaNoel]

I have 5 vials(test prop) 100 mg/ml (10 ml)
My proposed plan will use 4480/5000 mg.
Should i up my last week to 100mg or will it just screw my blood levels up ?
Or any extra beneficial week to up dosage abit ?
I don't mind wasting it but couldn't find an answer for it.

Thanks!