Anyone have some insight on this.....

needsize

Community Veteran
Someone, I think lawnsaver, posted about how if you shoot say 500iu 2x a week during a cycle, that it will keep you from being shut down completely. I happen to have lots of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) lying around and am starting a cycle in a few days so was thinking of incorporating this?
Thoughts??? Will this work or not?
 
The goal is to try to prevent LH receptor downregulation /testicular atrophy by using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout the cycle - 500 IU's (or less) 2 -3 times per week which should enable you to recover faster after you come off...
 
hhajdo said:
The goal is to try to prevent LH receptor downregulation /testicular atrophy by using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout the cycle - 500 IU's (or less) 2 -3 times per week which should enable you to recover faster after you come off...

Is this a theory or is there any proof to back it up? I dont know a whole lot about this stuff, so I really have no idea
 
I like the sound of it if it works, especially since the way it works out this cycle might not end till the fall, so I think I'll give it a try
 
There are no studies from which we can conclude which protocol/dosing is ideal...

As LS already said the standard 2 week protocol at the end of the cycle works fine for most, but throughout the cycle may be superior, especially if you plan to stay on very long...
Low doses are definitely the way to go...



http://physiol.annualreviews.org/cgi/content/full/60/1/461?ijkey=6GsNUBGIkSk22


Pulsatile endogenous LH secretion or exogenous pulsatile or single low-dose treatment with LH or hCG maintains LHR levels and steroidogenic enzymes in the adult Leydig cell. However, experimental or endogenous elevations of hCG secretion (e.g. as in patients with choriocarcinoma), major increases in LH levels, or administration of a single pharmacological dose of LH or hCG can cause down-regulation of the LHR and desensitization to the hormonal signal (13, 22).


In this study the effect of single high dose was compared to the effect of divided small dose..




J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Feb;58(2):327-31 Related Articles, Links


Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)



EOD or E3D may be a better option than ED:



J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1979 Jul;49(1):12-4

Leydig cell responsiveness to single and repeated human chorionic gonadotropin administration.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

A single im injection of 1500 IU hCG significantly increased plasma testosterone levels for at least 96--120 h in normal men (n = 7), patients with isolated gonadotropin deficiency (n = 6), and boys with delayed puberty (n = 7); the maximum values [1315 +/- 309, 370 +/- 177, and 963 +/- 249 ng/100 ml (mean +/- SD), respectively] were achieved after 72 h in each group. Repeated daily injections of 1500 IU hCG for 3 days increased plasma testosterone levels in the same subjects at 72 h after the start to levels (1342 +/- 412, 407 +/- 199, and 1052 +/- 449 ng/100 ml, respectively) similar to those found in the single dose experiment. The levels achieved at 24 and 48 h also did not differ significantly in the two experiments. The data indicate the lack of additional leydig cell stimulation by repeated hCG injections given within 48 h after a single dose.
 
I believ it was SWALES protocol for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use, wether on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) or A Athlete Cycling AAS.
 
he also said that depending on results, you may have to bump it to 750 or 1000 IU 2x a week. not an official study, but based on results from his clients.

I don't see a reason not to do it. You end up using about the same amount vs larger doses at the end, and prevent atrophy in the first place...
 
I remember reading that post a while back. I think he shoots 500IU's every Saturday and Sunday throughout the cycle.
 
This is something LAWNSAVER wrote in this post http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3952&highlight=hcg


WRITTEN BY LAWNSAVER

Yes...good basic info.

This is where they didnt clarify. You should take the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) while the steroids are still present in your system. Why? Because the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will only prolong the recovery process. Also, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will revert the atrophy while a synthetic androgen is still present.

Now we have to speak about something that happens 5% of the time. Sometimes the atrophy wont revert. This is bad. I have one testicle that didnt respond to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) treatment.

Now, how can we make sure this doesnt happen??

Take small doses( 500ius-1000ius) twice a week throughout the entire cycle. This will keep the LH signal to the testicles going, which will keep the testicles from going into atrophy. This dosing schedule would have saved the testicle I lost.

Although take 500-1000ius Ed for the last 2 weeks of a cycle to revert the atrophy works 95% of the time, sometimes it doesnt. This dosing schedule I talked about above will make sure no atrophy will set in.

Now I will still take 500ius ED for the last 7-10 days too. This will make sure the testicles are back to full size and this will leave the job that the clomid has to do easier, which will allow a much better recovery of the HPTA.

I hope this helps clear things up a little more!
 
IMO it would be better not to inject it 2 days in a row since it usually takes 48 hrs for test levels to peak after a single injection, and because repeated injections don't provide additional leydig cell stimulation....
 
hhajdo said:
IMO it would be better not to inject it 2 days in a row since it usually takes 48 hrs for test levels to peak after a single injection, and because repeated injections don't provide additional leydig cell stimulation....


So let's say you're taking test enan. on Mon and Thursday.
Would you just add the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) with the test; or do separate Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) injections on Wed/Sat., etc...
 
im doing that right now. i also got the ideal from LS, and it seems to be working. IM only on week 5. so we'll see.
 
What about this statment from the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) profile on anabolic review:
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) should only be taken for a few weeks. If Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function.
 
I am going to have to disagree with you guys on this one. I dont see how using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mid cycle would do anything but cause more harm than good. If there is no LH going to the testes then its going to be a constant battle of keeping the testes from shrinking. This seems pointless to me if there is no LH coming into the testes. Besides cant Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) cause a desititization to the testes?
 
Wartime100 said:
What about this statment from the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) profile on anabolic review:
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) should only be taken for a few weeks. If Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function.

Looks like they're talking about "fertility" type doses which can be 2,500 or 5,000 IU 3x a week, or even higher (and that is what some old cycles used isn't it?). I believe Swale said that 250 was what they would normally get, and what he uses for Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) people. Those doses are 10x higher than the 500 IU x2.

I *really* don't understand why getting the LH signal from Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) vs "naturally" would make any difference to the testes, or how that could make the testes stop responding to the signal. Isn't that what controls production every day anyway?

I've never seen the basis for this claim, and would like to if it could actually happen.
 
Back
Top