Curious thing about TT and injection amount

[swilk]

40 years old. 5'10" 180lbs. Originally diagnosed with low T without finding the actual cause .... original T value of 287.

I have been on TRT for just over a year and have progressed through the protocols trying to figure out what works best for me ....

All sub-q injections.

All blood work was done Tuesday mornings roughly 25 hours after the last injection.

I was originally taking 60mg of test C at 3.5 day intervals. Nothing else. TT of 769. Free T 31.45. E Sensitive 34

I changed to taking 70mg of test C at 3.5 day intervals. Nothing else. TT of 737. Free T 36.56. E Sensitive 47

I changed to taking 80mg of test C at 3.5 day intervals and 1/4mg of arimidex the day of the shot. TT 886. Free T 35.35. E Sensitive 9

Most recently I have been taking 90mg of test C at 3.5 day intervals and 1/4mg of arimidex the day of the shot. I tried it with 1/8mg of arimidex for about 12 weeks and started to get a touch of back and face acne so I changed my dosage back to 1/4mg the day of the shot without first having blood work done to determine exactly where 1/8mg put me. TT 808. Free T 39.92. E Sensitive 9

All values are labcorp (348-1197 and 5-21)

I have read in a few places that when doing sub-q injections the test is absorbed differently than intramuscular with some reporting much, much lower TT levels than when they take it intra ....

I "feel" good. Workouts are good. Strength is good. Sex drive is good.

Im chasing "great" instead of good but the way the numbers are reacting has me baffled. I am not going solely by numbers as I make protocol changes and then after a period of time evaluate how I feel and then have blood work done to see if how I feel jives with what the numbers tell me. I have felt "good" the entire journey even though my test intake has increased by 50%.

I realize my E sensitive is on the low side of things and need to figure out a way to get it up a little without letting the pendulum swing to far the other way.

I work a block from a Labcorp and my workplace now has its own clinic so I should be able to get blood work done just about whenever I want without having to pay for it ..... I am contemplating switching to intramuscular injections, lowering the dose back down to 60mg every 3.5 days and running through the same series of experiments to see how I respond to intra vs sub-q.

Any thoughts?

 

[jomamma007]

A few quick things bud.
Considering how high your free T is, above range, with a 700 total t hints at low SHBG.
Guys with low SHBG often find it hard to feel good on TRT. Doing more frequent injections, say EoD does seem to help.

But purely based of blood work I'd go back to your original dosage, if not 50mgs E3.5days. You can already see that increasing it only leads to you chasing your estrogen and that is not a fun game to play.

Less is more in this game. Your Free T is almost double the range... Total T isn't as important.

Test your SHBG next time you can as it seems that you can have blood work done fairly easily.

 

[Jimstigator]

I don't have a concrete answer for you other than maybe bloodwork timing? On my current protocol, I see a peak of like 760 and a trough of 600. This leads me into my other thought - maybe you are like me and less is more.

The more T I take, the worse I feel. And I don't have the issue of chasing estrogen... mine is always pretty low. I have been charting all sorts of stuff for almost a year now and I have had more back to back "good" days since dropping to 50 E3.5D than ever before. I've tried virtually every protocol imaginable (ED, EOD, E3D, E3.5D, E5D, E7D, three times a week) and for whatever reason this one is playing out nicely right now. I've run TT as high as 1500 and not felt good. Down in the 600-700 range, I seem to feel better... at least right now.

Also, I have low-normal SHBG, whereas alot of the guys around here are normal to normal-high and need higher TT levels to get the same effect.

If I was you - I would do 50 E3.5D, which is basically the most standard TRT regimen that exists. Stop Arimidex, and test after 4-5 weeks. As for injection, you could always use the same pin, which I imagine is an insulin syringe, and go into the delts. For most guys, this would be shallow IM. Although I do full on subq in my upper glutes, my Dr always tells me he prefers the delts with a 29g 1/2 syringe.

You might also just not feel great because of low estrogen. You could always cut the pill further to take a smaller dose. I have heard of guys dissolving them into small amounts of vodka and using a dropper to get the proper dose.

-Jim

 

[swilk]

I tried 1/8mg of adex....that was fun cutting them that small.... And had what I perceived to be high E sides although I didn't test.

Also, I use 2 spots on front of each thigh for my injection spots rotating each enjection to the next spot.

 

[Jimstigator]

I tried 1/8mg of adex....that was fun cutting them that small.... And had what I perceived to be high E sides although I didn't test.

Also, I use 2 spots on front of each thigh for my injection spots rotating each enjection to the next spot.

With the exception of gyno for high estrogen and joint pain for low estrogen, the sides are very similar. Where you inject... you are probably doing shallow IM unless you have chub on the legs. I am no expert, but I consider going into a pinch of fat to be subq, whereas using short (1/2, 5/8) syringes into low fat areas such as delts or thighs to be shallow IM.

-Jim

 

[swilk]

No chub on the thigh...I use a 8mm 30g syringe and pinch a fold of skin and inject into the fold.

 

[Megatron28]

I think your issue is that your E2 is too low right now. If you are going to keep doing subq injections I recommend going to every other day. And stop taking the AI. See where that puts you at.

Nice job keeping track of everything. It helps figure out what is going on.

 

[Chiefy]

I think your issue is that your E2 is too low right now. If you are going to keep doing subq injections I recommend going to every other day. And stop taking the AI. See where that puts you at.

Nice job keeping track of everything. It helps figure out what is going on.

I agree with this, great post.

OP I think you're doing the right thing going back to your original protocol.

To be honest, I think you'd be fine dropping to 50mg e3.5d. Your free T is slightly above range on 60mg e3.5d, so you've got a little room for that to come down without having any major effect on how you feel. Total T may take a slight hit, but it's all about the free T, which would likely still stay close to the top of the range. It would certainly bring your E2 down a bit, which seems to be the goal.

 

[swilk]

The nice thing about having access to easy blood work is the ability to fine tune things and actually see what is happening.

I decided to circle back to the beginning and repeat almost exactly as I did the first time with the exception that I changed to IM injections instead of SQ. I noticed with the SQ that I would get a lump under the skin that would last for several days ..... common sense tells me that had to effect the absorption rate of the Test.

Its also nice that I feel "good" across all of the tried protocols. Its not like I am struggling with anything. Im 40 years old. Stronger than Ive ever been. Sex drive is great. Got the erections lined out without needing Cialas or anything else. Training to run in a half marathon in May.

Given where I am and the resources available I dont see any harm in chasing feeling "great" as long as i can do it in a way that is not detrimental to my health in any way.

Also ... I neglected to mention in my first post .... I was also injecting HCG at 300iu the day before the test injection on my 70mg and 80mg test protocols. I didnt really notice any difference while on it and havnet really noticed any difference since being off with the exception of slight testicular atrophy. I will not be including the HCG this time around.

 

[TRTnooby]

The nice thing about having access to easy blood work is the ability to fine tune things and actually see what is happening.

I decided to circle back to the beginning and repeat almost exactly as I did the first time with the exception that I changed to IM injections instead of SQ. I noticed with the SQ that I would get a lump under the skin that would last for several days ..... common sense tells me that had to effect the absorption rate of the Test.

Its also nice that I feel "good" across all of the tried protocols. Its not like I am struggling with anything. Im 40 years old. Stronger than Ive ever been. Sex drive is great. Got the erections lined out without needing Cialas or anything else. Training to run in a half marathon in May.

Given where I am and the resources available I dont see any harm in chasing feeling "great" as long as i can do it in a way that is not detrimental to my health in any way.

Also ... I neglected to mention in my first post .... I was also injecting HCG at 300iu the day before the test injection on my 70mg and 80mg test protocols. I didnt really notice any difference while on it and havnet really noticed any difference since being off with the exception of slight testicular atrophy. I will not be including the HCG this time around.

Perhaps there is more to feeling great for you than a a few hundred points of TT? Honestly I don't notice much of a difference in the way I feel once I'm over 750. 750 feels great, 1000 feels great too, but I can't really tell the difference between the two.

 

[swilk]

Very possible.

I am curious as to why TT only climbed from 769 to 886 even though the Test dose was increased 50% .... perhaps sub-q injections just arent for me and the absorption rate and process is doing funky things.

If I run through the protocols while doing IM instead of sub-q and the numbers stay consistent and I continue to feel "good" then at least I will know that maybe "great" is simply a unicorn that TRT alone cannot get me to. If the numbers greatly change and the way I feel also changes I might be able to conclusively say there is a difference between sub-q and IM for me.

 

[TRTnooby]

When you went from hypogonadal levels to where you are at now you probably tripled, even quadrupled the amount of testosterone in your system, that extra couple of hundred ng/dl that you are chasing are barely a 25% increase.

 

[swilk]

Im not necessarily chasing a number .... I am more chasing a feeling. Evaluating the feeling comes first and then I have a look at the actual numbers.

It is waaaaaay to early to tell .... and Im sure its just a placebo effect ..... but I seem to feel better after the two single IM shots I have taken back at a lower level (60mg each). Time will tell.

 

[Un1baller]

I just started TRT and I am doing 50 mb E3D sub-q injections. I am curious to see your results. I am loving the sub-q shots so far. Very easy.

 

[IMT staff]

Might wanna try switching to once a week injections. A little swing in the pendulum can be beneficial.

 

[swilk]

Been doing IM injections for a couple of weeks now and I can say I like them better. I changed to a 29g .5cc 1/2" syringe and am injecting two spots on each thigh .... Still doing injections every 3.5 days.

No lumps. No injection pain. No post injection soreness.

 

[Alpin]

Might wanna try switching to once a week injections. A little swing in the pendulum can be beneficial.

How and why?
interested to know

 

[Jimstigator]

Been doing IM injections for a couple of weeks now and I can say I like them better. I changed to a 29g .5cc 1/2" syringe and am injecting two spots on each thigh .... Still doing injections every 3.5 days.

No lumps. No injection pain. No post injection soreness.

What do you like better? It get you closer to "great"? Have any bloodwork since switching?

-Jim

 

[swilk]

What do you like better? It get you closer to "great"? Have any bloodwork since switching?

-Jim

I like the IM injections better...I have circled back to the beginning and am doing 60mg twice a week. No AI.

Will have blood work done toward the end of this month...need a few more weeks for things to stabilize.

I feel every bit as good and possibly better than ever before but it might just be a placebo effect of spring weather and some other variables.

 

[cybrsage]

I heard that the pendulum swing mimics real life test levels more - but I found myself hating it. I was initially on a two week injection cycle and by the time my next shot rolled around I was hating life again. I prefer the even keel of good.