dbol and toxicity

^you're mostly proving my point. As i just stated in that paragraph that there is proof through bloodwork that liver toxicity is over stated. I also mentioned that is THEIR blood work and it would be wise to get your own done to see for yourself how toxic 17aas for

as for the newbie thing, no. you could flame 75% of the opinions given on this steroid forum about giving newbies the wrong idea. and i rather tell newbies the truth instead of falsified info so the myth that you can only take orals for 4 fuckin weeks doesnt continue anymore. If they can't do the research of cycling safely that's not on me or anyone else saying that the toxicity of 17aas are over rated. and i would tell a newbie that any day, theres nothing wrong with telling the truth.
 
skarhead1 said:
there is proof through bloodwork that liver toxicity is over stated.
Not mine. I have had blood work done pre and during use of 17-aa drugs. Liver enzymes were significantly raised after 6 weeks of 50mg Winstrol used. Your stating something as fact when it indeed is not.
 
Hence, why i stated myself and OTHERS bloodwork and tahts a fact.i also stated it would be wise to get yourss done as a cautionary measure... In all likelihood your liver is fine now and went back to normal values. also, did your doc consider the fact you train with weights? if you train with weights your liver values are going to be high as it is...

update: bleach took a 17aa for 12 weeks with fine liver values... theres more proof that 17aas arent that liver toxic whereas people spewing you can only take it for 4 weeks are talking out of their asses.
 
skarhead1 said:
Hence, why i stated myself and OTHERS bloodwork and tahts a fact.i also stated it would be wise to get yourss done as a cautionary measure... In all likelihood your liver is fine now and went back to normal values. also, did your doc consider the fact you train with weights? if you train with weights your liver values are going to be high as it is...

update: bleach took a 17aa for 12 weeks with fine liver values... theres more proof that 17aas arent that liver toxic whereas people spewing you can only take it for 4 weeks are talking out of their asses.
I realize what you are saying and I do agree to a point that people saying 4-6 weeks have no real science to back it up. BUT, I also believe it is important to know the dangers of 17-aa drugs and realize that they do effect the liver.

There was a guy on these boards cant remember his board name but he used alot of orals, A-bombs, dbol, Winstrol (winny), and so on for years off and on for 15 or so years. He was diagnosed with kidney failure and severe liver damage. He passed away, a few years back. Now, im not saying that 17-aa drugs were the sole cause of his problems but one has to believe that they played a role. Alcohals effect on the liver may be overstated to but tell that to the people sitting in the hospitol or dead from acute liver failure. These are extreme examples, I realize that. If these people would have had blood work they would have seen there was problems well before it got so bad. My whole point is that 17-aa drugs are dangerous and people need to be smart about it.
 
THE BOUNCER said:
I realize what you are saying and I do agree to a point that people saying 4-6 weeks have no real science to back it up. BUT, I also believe it is important to know the dangers of 17-aa drugs and realize that they do effect the liver.


Sure , I agree with this too

That person you're talking about was Mass with class and i believe it was the tren that he didnt cycle off either was causing the kidney problems.
 
If you tell someone the speedlimit is 70mph then everyone goes 80-90mph tell them it is 90mph and everyone will go 110mph....by giving advise that it's safe to go longer then 4-6weeks then people will set the benchmark as 10-12wks...

Your liver might be as tuff as old boots but just like a alcholics liver your body adjusts..let them start low and build up homeostasis to such substances, throw a 12week dbol cycle at a fresh liver and it ain't going to like it....

Everyone gets what your saying on this thread! Yeah orals arn't as toxic as everyone makes out but don't go advising 12wk dbol cycles to newbies as that's bad advise!
 
just because some people say be careful using orals, especially for the first time and to use liver protectants, doesn't mean we are saying do not ever take orals for more than 4 weeks or they will destroy your liver as some have tried to point out. i think the point is clear that some of us think that since we only have one liver and one life that maybe it would't hurt to be careful.
 
skarhead1 said:
Sure , I agree with this too

That person you're talking about was Mass with class and i believe it was the tren that he didnt cycle off either was causing the kidney problems.
yep, thats who it was.
 
here is that interview with masswithclass. thought it might be important for some of the new guys that dont take this seriously.



"Alot of you people know me, but for those who don't I'm a 2 time state middleweight Pa State champion in the NPC. I also took it to the next level 2 times competing at Nationals for the allmighty PRO card. I recently was diagnosed with Renal Kidney Failure, that means basically my kidneys are shutting down. I need dialysis 3 times a week for 4 hours a session to stay alive. Kidney problems do not run in my family, nobody in my family has ever had a kidney related issue.
You have to realize there are consequences to your actions with AAS, do not think that you are invinsible. I was recently prepping for the state championships, I figured this is my year for the overall state title Mr Pennsyvania and it was balls to the wall. About 6 weeks out I started throwing up every day sometimes 2 times a day, my ankles were holding water and my skin was turning very pale and I was so fatigued but I pushed on anyway thinking I was being a pussy. Finally it got so bad I could barely breathe and was truly afraid that something very serious was wrong. I went to the doctor for blood work, he sent it out state. The next thing I know he called me and wanted me in the hospital NOW. I went to intensive care where they gave me 4 units of blood and blood pressure meds, turns out my kidneys were shutting down and have been doing so for some time now. I went from prepping for a state title to having a doctor sitting in front of me telling me "you need a transplant". If I would have had blood work and paid attention to it I would more than likey not been in this grim position. Nobody talks about the bad side of steroids on these boards, so I just wanted you to know what you are getting into. I don't mean to lecture, I was asked to write this piece to make people realize there is a bad side about steroids that most people are in denial about. Thank you for listening and hopefully I can help some of you from being in the same position as me some day.

Q: If you don't mind me asking how long have you been on Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and which compound in particular did they attribute to kidney failure?

MWC: I personally loved the 17-alpha alkylated pills, anadrol, d-bol, Winstrol (winny), halo and I also believe trenbolone played a role. I would like to add that I did pop anti inflamatories when sore and also did the eca stack since 1991. As far as Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) I have been doing it since 1996 with little time off.

Q: Do you feel diuretics played a role?

MWC: i believe it was all of the above. This entire thing started after i went 21 hours before a show without water and used wine and lasix to dry me out. After the show I had so much liquid and such a bad rebound I believe that was the straw that broke the camels back. I continued to juice and figured it would go away. You can only put so much toxic shit in your body before it says enough. We never think it will happen to us. I just want to tell you guys that it does happen for real and to be careful as hell. My bodybuilding days are over and I will never step on a national stage again, but hey I'm lucky to be alive. I thank the nurses at dialysis everytime I go, because in a sense they are keeping me alive.
 
tman55 said:
good point. i can't tolerate dbol or even tren. my values went sky high when i took those...that said i can do test and deca and never get gyno.
Liver values high on Tren? What?
 
Lucky13 said:
If you tell someone the speedlimit is 70mph then everyone goes 80-90mph tell them it is 90mph and everyone will go 110mph....by giving advise that it's safe to go longer then 4-6weeks then people will set the benchmark as 10-12wks...
You're theory is unproven and is false. People will only go so fast.
 
THE BOUNCER said:
here is that interview with masswithclass. thought it might be important for some of the new guys that dont take this seriously.



"Alot of you people know me, but for those who don't I'm a 2 time state middleweight Pa State champion in the NPC. I also took it to the next level 2 times competing at Nationals for the allmighty PRO card. I recently was diagnosed with Renal Kidney Failure, that means basically my kidneys are shutting down. I need dialysis 3 times a week for 4 hours a session to stay alive. Kidney problems do not run in my family, nobody in my family has ever had a kidney related issue.
You have to realize there are consequences to your actions with AAS, do not think that you are invinsible. I was recently prepping for the state championships, I figured this is my year for the overall state title Mr Pennsyvania and it was balls to the wall. About 6 weeks out I started throwing up every day sometimes 2 times a day, my ankles were holding water and my skin was turning very pale and I was so fatigued but I pushed on anyway thinking I was being a pussy. Finally it got so bad I could barely breathe and was truly afraid that something very serious was wrong. I went to the doctor for blood work, he sent it out state. The next thing I know he called me and wanted me in the hospital NOW. I went to intensive care where they gave me 4 units of blood and blood pressure meds, turns out my kidneys were shutting down and have been doing so for some time now. I went from prepping for a state title to having a doctor sitting in front of me telling me "you need a transplant". If I would have had blood work and paid attention to it I would more than likey not been in this grim position. Nobody talks about the bad side of steroids on these boards, so I just wanted you to know what you are getting into. I don't mean to lecture, I was asked to write this piece to make people realize there is a bad side about steroids that most people are in denial about. Thank you for listening and hopefully I can help some of you from being in the same position as me some day.

Q: If you don't mind me asking how long have you been on Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and which compound in particular did they attribute to kidney failure?

MWC: I personally loved the 17-alpha alkylated pills, anadrol, d-bol, Winstrol (winny), halo and I also believe trenbolone played a role. I would like to add that I did pop anti inflamatories when sore and also did the eca stack since 1991. As far as Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) I have been doing it since 1996 with little time off.

Q: Do you feel diuretics played a role?

MWC: i believe it was all of the above. This entire thing started after i went 21 hours before a show without water and used wine and lasix to dry me out. After the show I had so much liquid and such a bad rebound I believe that was the straw that broke the camels back. I continued to juice and figured it would go away. You can only put so much toxic shit in your body before it says enough. We never think it will happen to us. I just want to tell you guys that it does happen for real and to be careful as hell. My bodybuilding days are over and I will never step on a national stage again, but hey I'm lucky to be alive. I thank the nurses at dialysis everytime I go, because in a sense they are keeping me alive.
Dont forget that high blood pressure could also destroy kidneys.
 
The 4-6 weeks is just a safe guideline. The rare individual will perhaps have problems in his first week, while I can imagine most can do a 10 week cycle without mentionable problems. I'm sure that there are people able to do it year-round and be ok. I think 4-6 is a sensible guideline, and everybody should find his own way based on that, depending on his own reactions and bloodwork. There is no way to pinpoint safety to a single duration for all.
 
pineapple said:
You're theory is unproven and is false. People will only go so fast.
Not necessarly. In Germany there is no speed limit on a freeway. While most people behave sensibly, there is always the occasional freak that buys a new ferrari (cycle) and goes to the extreme, just to see his limits. And he wouldn't do it if there were rules against it.
 
pineapple said:
Liver values high on Tren? What?

Yes, this can easily happen with any steroid, oral or injectable.
It all has to pass through the liver. The difference is that orals pass through the stomach wall then are taken directly to your liver then recirculated to your liver through the blood stream. two passes for orals, one pass for injectables.

Tylenol and similar drugs can elevate liver toxicity. I used to not worry about it, but now I take it seriously.
 
mustanged77 said:
Yes, this can easily happen with any steroid, oral or injectable.
It all has to pass through the liver. The difference is that orals pass through the stomach wall then are taken directly to your liver then recirculated to your liver through the blood stream. two passes for orals, one pass for injectables.

Tylenol and similar drugs can elevate liver toxicity. I used to not worry about it, but now I take it seriously.
First time hearing about Tren affecting the liver. Thought it was about the kidneys instead. Any backup on this? Tren and high liver values?
 
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