Does anyone have any good explanation as to why this is happening.

[tury694]

I feel sick when I cut out carbs. I'm no diet expert but I feel weak and depleted without oats, sweet potatoes, beans, and other complex carbs. I stay away from all the sugar I can, only 1 packet in my coffee.

 

[Roush]

Removing sugars from the blood would be irrelevant if your not consuming carbs. I can understand that.

But, is there any benefit to glycogen storage in muscle tissue? Does it benefit muscular endurance, usable mass, anything that would help performance in any way? Doesn't insulin cause growth to some extent, or signal for growth?

carbs cause growth to some degree -- for example,, if you have cancer cells in your body, and you eat carbs that are then converted to glucose, those cancer cells depend on the glucose for growth.

glycogen stores in your muscles are converted to energy when you train,, your brain uses glycogen for energy as well,, your brain is 2% of your body weight yet uses 25% of the bodies energy stores.

so obviously carbs have benefits for growth (unless feeding cancer cells glucose to thrive on is not worth it),, BUT your body does not need them,, your brain does not need glucose and either do your muscles,, the reason your body is using glucose/carbs for energy is cause it is there and available and its using it up for energy to get RID of it to a degree..
If you get rid of carbs completely,, then your body will convert to it's natural way of using energy and no longer be dependent on carbs

 

[Roush]

I feel sick when I cut out carbs. I'm no diet expert but I feel weak and depleted without oats, sweet potatoes, beans, and other complex carbs. I stay away from all the sugar I can, only 1 packet in my coffee.

a heroin junkie feels like shit when he quits heroin,, same with alcoholics and opiate addicts.. if you stop taking the drug you feel like shit.. all carbs convert to sugar, the brain becomes dependent on it just like it does a drug..

So of course you feel like shit,, you've been sugar/carb dependent your whole life.. no carbs and you'll loose all your glycogen stores and have no energy.. but eventually , just like the heroin addict,, once he gets past the withdrawals and dependency he becomes well and feels much better..

if you were to go without carbs for a month,, then your body would switch energy sources, and feel much better.. you've just never got past the withdrawal phase of the drug

 

[Ghost124]

China produces the vast majority of goods we use. China is also the world's supplier of hormones. China wants to spread to the rest of the world. Docile hypogonadal men offer little resistance to enslavement.



That or all the processed shit we eat in combination with a constant dose of stress and other environmental factors is just nuking our pituitary gland.

Spot on...





Arrived very late to this thread.

My input in all this is: Am I the only one who is noticing that as we proceed into the future, men are getting "soft"? Look at the average man from a 50's movie compared to today. You can CLEARLY see which ones is more manly. Now a days, guys are all emotional, caught up in their feelings and are way more in touch with their feminine side. One of my very close friends is a runway model(childhood best friend, more like a sister). She is one of my closest friends and has MANY hot friends which you know what that means for me . Anyways, she ALWAYS shows me her phone of how guys approach her and try to get at her. After seeing 2-3 years of her showing me and making fun of almost every guy that has got at her, including a bunch of her friends, I am convinced females in some ways are tougher than males. You know how me make fun of females for getting all psycho and attached?? Truth be told, it's guys that do it much more. I am noticing that men get a lot more clingy and all attached and needy than females.

I feel like this ties into the lower T levels thing. I consider myself old school, I would rather get stapled in the balls a few times than admit I miss a chick, that is how I am. IMO dudes should show 3 emotions: Pissed off, Horny, or Happy. All the other ones keep to yourself. But instead now a days dudes are more emotional than females.

Also there is more and more guys coming out it seems like and going gay or turning trans gender.

 

[DinoTexas]

I have eaten this way for five years. I am 41 and my avi is current. My body fat percentage is extremely low.

 

[Roush]

I have eaten this way for five years. I am 41 and my avi is current. My body fat percentage is extremely low.

which way ? very little to no carbs and natural food,, meats, nuts and vegetables ?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

All of this is addressed in the thread Mega linked but whatever - low carb zealots have a habit of spewing their nonsense on everyone else so here we go again

And despite society being on a low fat diet,, yet everyone is fat,, it's clear that fat does not make a person fat (proven biological science),, it's impossible for fat to make a person fat because fat does not raise insulin and insulin is the only hormone in the body that can drive glucose and store fat in fat cells,, glucose comes from carbs and spikes insulin,, only carbs can make you fat,, It's the high carb diet society is on that causes fat,, not fat..

Wrong - and lol at you claiming that this is "proven biological science".

Even with ZERO insulin you can gain fat due to something called acylation stimulating protein (ASP).
ASP is an adipocyte autocrine that is increased in response to many things including the presence of fat in the bloodstream WITHOUT an increase in insulin and fat cell metabolism is still affected = fat gain all due to ASP:

********* response of Acylation Stimulating Protein to an oral fat load. - PubMed - NCBI

Eat only fat and if your in a caloric surplus you will gain fat even with zero insulin response.
In the future don't make claims like like "proven biological science" when you don't know what biological science is actually saying.

As for studies that prove that carbs cause health problems , instead of me posting all of them which do prove this.. I'll point you to search for yourself and look into the research of.

Dr. Tim Noakes
Dr. Eric Westman
Scientific researcher : Gary Taubes
And on a slightly different angle, studies showing gluten is a poison to most of us and that gluten is not just found in wheats and grains but pretty much all carbs
Dr. Peter Osborne

And as far as FAD diets go,, The biggest fad diet ever is the one that is currently promoted by the us govt and the current food pyramid,, the low fat, high carb with plenty of grains and fruits.. Is supposedly healthy.. That's a fad diet that does nothing but make people unfit and sick.

The LOW carb diet is far from a fad,, been around for several million years

Your point about insulin resistance is true but you forget that the MAIN cause of insulin resistance is obesity and the EASIEST way to reverse it is through fat loss.
The leaner you get, the more insulin sensitive you become.

And every single guy you listed is a low carb zealot that cherry picks data - go read the studies yourself rather than relying on people who sell a bunch of books and get media attention. And yes - I'm going to show you VERY strong evidence regarding this later on in this post...

And low carb IS a fad diet - no one in modern society can stay on a low carb/keto diet LONG TERM.
In fact the studies show that longetivity of such diets is extremely poor and if you cant stick to a diet long term then what is it? Answer: A short term fad diet.

"Good calories Bad calories" by Gary Taubes

Not all calories are created equal,, calorie in vs calorie out is what has been taught for years.. New research is showing that calories are not that important,, throwing counting calories out the window completely .

Example diet -
100 G protein = 400 cal
300 g carbs = 1200 cal
50 g fat = 450 cal

= 2050 calories -- 1200 of which raise insulin and thus fat storage

Example diet
80 G protein = 320 cal
20 g carbs = 80 cal
184 g fat = 1656 cal

= 2056 calories -- Essentially no insulin spikes with that low of carb and thus no fat storage,,

Even if your calorie requirement is 1900 a day,, In example one,, excess calories will most definitely be stored as fat,, because insulin is constantly present ,, In example two it won't/can't because of the lack of insulin

I'm grateful you posted this because I already dissected his bullshit book in another thread so here is a copy and paste of my post:

"Gary Taubes wrote a book called "good calories, bad calories" where he hypothesized (zero evidence) that calories don't matter and its all about controlling insulin - something this idiot agrees with because he doesn't know any better.

What he doesn't realize is the "cherry-picking" he accuses me of is EXACTLY what Gary did & he relied on self-reported food intakes to make his conclusions (notoriously inaccurate).
He also doesn't realise that Gary's book is based on a model of fat cell metabolism create in the 1950s that hasn't been valid for a long, long time now.

For example, protein raises insulin and yet your conveniently ignoring that hmm?
In fact, in Type 2 diabetics, protein raises insulin as much as carbs- yet protein is good for fat loss while while carbs are bad hmm?

Even more important is the fact that your body can store fat even with ZERO insulin due to something called acylation stimulating protein (ASP).
ASP is an adipocyte autocrine that is increased in response to many things including the presence of fat in the bloodstream WITHOUT an increase in insulin and fat cell metabolism is still affected = fat gain all due to ASP.

If insulin was the only problem then we could all eat as much fat as we want (since fat doesn't increase insulin) and not worry about fat gain at all - yet we all know this is bullshit. "

Gary taubes is full of shit - as the studies I'm about to post (that he conveniently ignores) are going show....

Removing sugars from the blood would be irrelevant if your not consuming carbs. I can understand that.

But, is there any benefit to glycogen storage in muscle tissue? Does it benefit muscular endurance, usable mass, anything that would help performance in any way? Doesn't insulin cause growth to some extent, or signal for growth?

Muscle glycogen is EXTREMELY useful to all aspects of high level performance - even athletes who run keto diets during training have MASSIVE carb loads before an event because the fact is that carbs enhance performance.
Insulin also helps partition nutrients to your muscles AND has well known anti-catabolic benefits - something all low carb zealots ignore.

glycogen stores in your muscles are converted to energy when you train,, your brain uses glycogen for energy as well,, your brain is 2% of your body weight yet uses 25% of the bodies energy stores.

so obviously carbs have benefits for growth (unless feeding cancer cells glucose to thrive on is not worth it),, BUT your body does not need them,, your brain does not need glucose and either do your muscles,, the reason your body is using glucose/carbs for energy is cause it is there and available and its using it up for energy to get RID of it to a degree..
If you get rid of carbs completely,, then your body will convert to it's natural way of using energy and no longer be dependent on carbs

Complete and utter nonsense - again.

First of all, during resistance training or any other high intensity exercise your using glycogen almost EXCLUSIVELY for energy - fat plays no role in this whatsoever.
This is why keto dieting with a caloric deficit and low protein intake is a recipe for muscle loss without drugs - fat intake does NOTHING to preserve muscle.
You can adapt to keto all you want - fat will not be the main source of energy during training.

Also, your basing what your body "needs" on average, sedentary individuals - "need" is context dependent.
Someone who trains hard needs some carbs otherwise they will NOT be able to train as well. I have had the pleasure of actually watching coaches train athletes and even the ones who do keto diets (in order to create a super compensatory effect for glycogen come show time) ALWAYS carb load before a big event.
Why? Because it enhances performance.

Now as for the studies I kept talking about....

Here is a META-ANALYSIS (strongest scientific evidence possible) showing that low-fat vs low-carb was the same with regards to weight and fat loss regardless of what insulin is doing:

Comparison of weight loss among named diet programs in overweight and obese adults: a meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

Here is a DOUBLE BLIND PLACEBO CONTROLLED study where 2 groups were put on a caloric deficit BUT one was given a drug (diazoxide) to inhibit insulin secretion in people who secrete too much of it (hyperinsulinaemic) while the other was given a placebo.
They found no difference in weight or fat loss and concluded that inhibiting insulin secretion was a poor method to induce fat loss. In other words, a caloric deficit makes insulin spikes completely and utterly irrelevant:

No effect of inhibition of insulin secretion by diazoxide on weight loss in hyperinsulinaemic obese subjects during an 8-week weight-loss diet. - PubMed - NCBI

Here is a study showing NO meta-bolic advantage to keto diets and concluding that non-keto diets (40% of calories from carbs) are EQUALLY as effective at treating insulin resistance.
They also found that people on keto diets had severe psychological side effects unlike the non-keto group:

Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no ********* advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. - PubMed - NCBI

And finally my favourite study on this topic of what causes obesity, low test, diabetes, etc...

Low carbohydrate versus isoenergetic balanced diets for reducing weight and cardiovascular risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

This is a systematic review and meta-analysis, so no one can accuse me of cherry picking anything (unlike Taubes, etc)....

Conclusion:"Trials show weight loss in the short-term irrespective of whether the diet is low CHO or balanced. There is probably little or no difference in weight loss and changes in cardiovascular risk factors up to two years of follow-up when overweight and obese adults, with or without type 2 diabetes, are randomised to low CHO diets and isoenergetic balanced weight loss diets.

In other words, caloric deficits improve basic health parameters regardless of macros.
AKA - eating too much food in general is causing all the health problems we are seeing in our society.


As I said earlier: There is NO evidence that low carb diets have any advantage to curing obesity or diabetes or whatever other healthy issues compared to simply eating less food in general.

 

[DinoTexas]

My diet is paleo but not as strict as some in that I allow legumes and sweet potatoes in to my diet. The fruits I consume are low on the glycemic index, I eat zero desserts or sugar of any kind. I do enjoy a drink or two of wine with my wife most nights, which we all know contains sugar. But given my diet, even with that, I keep very little fat. All fats are from meats (albeit lean ones for the most part but not exclusively), nuts, avocado, salmon? coconut, olive oil from cooking, and that's really it. I am totally in control of my weight and have been for five years. I was a low fat eater for probably ten years prior to switching to this way of eating. And I was very disciplined. There is no comparison between my body from age 25-35, and my body now at 41. I have also had greater energy, slept better, and have been sick less frequently. That picture was TRT only so no meaningful chemical support, just very disciplined diet

which way ? very little to no carbs and natural food,, meats, nuts and vegetables ?

 

[tury694]

View attachment 561657
I'm going on the Heath diet!

 

[Megatron28]

It would be difficult to eat 12000 calories a day if you were to only eat meat and fat with no carbs,, you would have to force yourself to do that because you don't have carbs in the diet stimulating appetite ..


Not sure why you took my comment and turned it into eating 12k calories a day though,, I simply said that they could keep the ground beef in the diet, which is perfectly healthy,, and drop the starchy carbs with the ground beef and they would be better off

I am trying to exaggerate your point to highlight its fallacy. In other words take it to the extreme.

Look, I like ketogenic diets as much as the next guy -- probably more actually. I have been on one for over 6 months now. But I don't view it as a lifelong diet. It is an ends to a means. A tool. In the end, it may provide certain advantages for certain people that results in their being able to eat fewer calories daily. It is the lower calories while eating sufficient protein that result in fat loss.

 

[Megatron28]

That's about the 'pallet' more then the brains chemical response with appetite.. If I eat peanut butter it will make my taste buds hungry for something salty..

I used to eat 6 meals a day plus snacks,, when I was eating plenty of carbs,, I was hungry constantly.

I've been without carbs for ten days now,, I have to force myself to eat 3 meals a day,, I'm really only hungry for breakfast.. Why this sudden change ? Cause Carbs are not manipulating my brains appetite any longer and I'm in my natural state

Not true. Trust me, your body/brain will adapt with some time you will learn how to eat more calories on a ketogenic diet. You adapt.

 

[DinoTexas]

I agree Maga. I'm not preaching its the only way, just that it works well for me personally. I also agree that you can adjust substantially from how I eat and still look and feel fantastic. I don't think you can eat a thousand beef patties and not gain weight or explode your heart, so somewhere in the middle we meet. Having said that, I think the principal of insulin spikes caused by carbs and sugars, leading to weight gain, is a real thing...some people just respond better than others regardless of which side of the equation you are on

 

[Megatron28]

carbs cause growth to some degree -- for example,, if you have cancer cells in your body, and you eat carbs that are then converted to glucose, those cancer cells depend on the glucose for growth.

glycogen stores in your muscles are converted to energy when you train,, your brain uses glycogen for energy as well,, your brain is 2% of your body weight yet uses 25% of the bodies energy stores.

so obviously carbs have benefits for growth (unless feeding cancer cells glucose to thrive on is not worth it),, BUT your body does not need them,, your brain does not need glucose and either do your muscles,, the reason your body is using glucose/carbs for energy is cause it is there and available and its using it up for energy to get RID of it to a degree..
If you get rid of carbs completely,, then your body will convert to it's natural way of using energy and no longer be dependent on carbs

Why would your body have developed/evolved such an efficient and beautiful way of storing energy (glycogen) if it isn't natural? Why would your body produce insulin if it isn't natural/beneficial for it to use it? Your body runs better on glucose than it does on ketones. Give the body a choice and it will burn glucose first. Glucose is the preferred fuel source -- that didn't happen through evolution over millions of years by accident.

 

[Megatron28]

a heroin junkie feels like shit when he quits heroin,, same with alcoholics and opiate addicts.. if you stop taking the drug you feel like shit.. all carbs convert to sugar, the brain becomes dependent on it just like it does a drug..

So of course you feel like shit,, you've been sugar/carb dependent your whole life.. no carbs and you'll loose all your glycogen stores and have no energy.. but eventually , just like the heroin addict,, once he gets past the withdrawals and dependency he becomes well and feels much better..

if you were to go without carbs for a month,, then your body would switch energy sources, and feel much better.. you've just never got past the withdrawal phase of the drug

Of course your brain and body are dependent on food for survival. Take away water and see how your brain and body react to not having that "drug". Take away air.

 

[DinoTexas]

This s a fact, you do adapt. I eat a mountain of clean food every day. And I feel like I am always hungry. I just never gain unwanted fat unless I want to.

Not true. Trust me, your body/brain will adapt with some time you will learn how to eat more calories on a ketogenic diet. You adapt.

 

[tury694]

I still feel that a well balanced diet with complex carbs, quality protein, and good fats is best for growth. I lift around predominantly Hispanic people and some of them are absurdly shredded and they all eat rice, beans and plantains along with loads of protein. Not all bodies are created the same but a balanced diet just feels right and I'm not going to fight what my body tells me. Simple carbs are a no go for me.

 

[Roush]

Muscle glycogen is EXTREMELY useful to all aspects of high level performance - even athletes who run keto diets during training have MASSIVE carb loads before an event because the fact is that carbs enhance performance.

hmm.. tell that to Ben Greenfield .. top level Triathlete,, who's two best times at the Hawaiian and Canadian triathlons came when he was in Ketosis,, he had ZERO CARBS,, he used MCT oil (pure saturated fat) during the race to 're-fuel'-- seems like pretty good performance to me.. if your best times come when you've had zero carbs,, then you can't say that carbs are essential for performance,, it obviously was not need for Ben.. also,, the greatest female triathlete of all time was on a very low carb high fat diet during all her years of competing.. worked well for her.


plenty of top levels athletes perform just fine without carb loading.. but hey, we are all different,, some perform better with Carbs,, maybe they don't have a degree of insulin resistance , where as athletes that perform well with no carbs do. but again,, plenty of athletes at the top level are beginning to compete in a state of Ketosis without carbs,, so you can't say they are essential to performance (for some people they are for some they are not)

Your point about insulin resistance is true but you forget that the MAIN cause of insulin resistance is obesity and the EASIEST way to reverse it is through fat loss.
The leaner you get, the more insulin sensitive you become.

hmm.. what came first,, the chicken or the egg.

did they get fat because they were genetically pre-disposed and had a degree of insulin resistance from the start, or did they make themselves this way by getting over weight ?

the former seems more plausible to me,, especially because both sides of my family have a history of diabetes yet neither side has obesity issues,, we are all naturally lean***8230;

if I was to bet,, if you took a 30 year old man who was obese, took him back in time to infancy,, then never fed that person a carb as long as he lived,, when he hit 30 he would not be fat.

 

[Roush]

Even with ZERO insulin you can gain fat due to something called acylation stimulating protein (ASP).
ASP is an adipocyte autocrine that is increased in response to many things including the presence of fat in the bloodstream WITHOUT an increase in insulin and fat cell metabolism is still affected = fat gain all due to ASP

So your saying that the fat cell can take in and store glucose.. without the presence of insulin ?

don't think that is in the human biology and medical text books we have available to us.. quoting a study that talks about how ASP is present in the blood and how consumption of oral fat intake essentially raises triglyceride-rich lipoproteins,, does not explain how the FAT is actually stored or how fat cells can intake glucose without the presence of insulin..

So,, you've clearly read the whole study, how does fat cells take in glucose without the presence of insulin,, and instead this ASP in the blood stream makes you store fat ?

 

[Megatron28]

Dude: why don't you just take out your pancreas. Problem solved.

 

[Roush]

In the future don't make claims like like "proven biological science" when you don't know what biological science is actually saying.

proven biological science is that ONLY insulin can store glucose in fat cells,, nothing else. that's what the med texts books tell us.

so,, if something else in our body besides insulin can do this,, please prove this and enlighten us all, and I will agree that I don't know what the biological science tells us (and I'll agree that the biological text books should be re-written.. and preferably by you)