Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on htpa

[liftsiron]

posted by Fcontact on atomicalmuscle



Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.

Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.

Administration of the antiestrogen tamoxifen for one month to 12 patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia significantly increased the mean basal testosterone (T) level and the responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) to constant luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) infusion but did not significantly influence the mean oestradiol (E2) levels or the E2 over testosterone ratio. Mean sperm concentration and total sperm output increased by about 70% after a mean treatment period of 5.5 +/- 0.4 months. No statistically significant difference was found between the two subgroups of patients treated with either the lower (5 or 10 mg once daily) or higher dose of tamoxifen (10 mg twice daily) with respect to basal or LHRH stimulated gonadotropin and testosterone response or the E2/T ratio and the effect on sperm density and total sperm output. In both subgroups the sperm motility and morphology remained unchanged. In conclusion higher doses of tamoxifen in this study prove not to be superior to lower doses in improving mean sperm density and total sperm output. The relative small percentage of patients achieving normalisation of only these sperm parameters pleads for further search for more effective selection of patients and other more effective treatment modalities in patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
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[liftsiron]

Selection of oligozoospermic men for tamoxifen treatment by an antiestrogen test.

Schill WB, Schillinger R.

In a retrospective study 46 men with idiopathic normogonadotropic oligozoospermia were treated by 20 mg Tamoxifen daily for a period of 6 months. A significant improvement of sperm count, total sperm output, total and progressive motility as well as sperm morphology was observed. In 25 men before initiation of treatment a short-term antiestrogen test with daily 40 mg Tamoxifen for a period of one week was performed with assessment of serum levels of testosterone, LH and FSH before and afterwards. Considering hormonal response in those patients who showed a more than 50% increase of sperm count (responders), FSH levels after Tamoxifen administration were unaffected. In contrast, a significant increase of the FSH level was observed in the group of the non-responders. Serum testosterone and LH levels increased in both groups, but showed no obvious differences. A similar hormonal pattern was found in father's and nonfather's concerning the response of FSH after Tamoxifen administration. It is concluded that the response of FSH towards Tamoxifen may be of use to predict improvement of semen parameters and therefore seems to be suitable to select patients for Tamoxifen therapy.
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[LAWNSAVER]

Good info!

It just tells us that post cycle therapy (pct) containing N-dex is effective at helping to restart the HPTA.

 

[E-Swift25]

bump

 

[Nelson Montana]

Good info!

It just tells us that post cycle therapy (pct) containing N-dex is effective at helping to restart the HPTA.

WHAT STUDY WERE YOU READING???!

If anything, these conclusions suggest the exact opposite.

In both groups HPTA in severely supressed individuals showed improvement after one to six months. DUH. Take nothing and those levels will improve after that much time.

Notice also that it said "signifcant improvement". What the hell does that mean? I've never seen a legitimate scientific study that didn't state exact numbers.

The resuts (or lack thereof) also showed that regardless of the dosage there no improvement in levels or the duration of suppression. What does that tell you?

And it concluded: Tamoxifim MAY be suitable in SPECIFIC cases.


It just goes to show ya...

Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe.

 

[sifu]

You are reading what you want to believe as well. Real world results on Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) users speak larger volumes than that study. Even then it proves the pint for nolva.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

WHAT STUDY WERE YOU READING???!

If anything, these conclusions suggest the exact opposite.

In both groups HPTA in severely supressed individuals showed improvement after one to six months. DUH. Take nothing and those levels will improve after that much time.

Notice also that it said "signifcant improvement". What the hell does that mean? I've never seen a legitimate scientific study that didn't state exact numbers.

The resuts (or lack thereof) also showed that regardless of the dosage there no improvement in levels or the duration of suppression. What does that tell you?

And it concluded: Tamoxifim MAY be suitable in SPECIFIC cases.


It just goes to show ya...

Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe.

Nelson...just give it up!!

SERMs work...its just that simple!

Go somewhere else with your BS.

I was really commenting on the first study.

Before you reply, I already know what you are going to say, as it sounds like a broken record. Post it somewhere else.

There are to many people who have taken SERMS for their post cycle therapy (pct) with success to be wrong. And again, I know what yu are going to say about that statement. "Well there are many who werent successful"

Well, some people dont respond to viagra. I guess all the hard-ons are a plecebo too!.

You just tire me out.

Go sell some Post Cycle, as you are good at it.

 

[Nelson Montana]

You people are hilarious.

You love using studies to try and prove a point. You don't even read them. Then when you're shown they prove the opposite point your reaction is; "who cares about studies?"

Then when I explain the reasoning behind the misinterpretation you get pissy, try to insult me and disparage my business-- which happens to help support this site.

Experts? Pffft. Children.


I thought this board was about observation, analysis and contributing ideas but apparently LS wants it to be just a confirmation of previously held concepts whether they're right or wrong. .

 

[LAWNSAVER]

You people are hilarious.

You love using studies to try and prove a point. You don't even read them. Then when you're shown they prove the opposite point your reaction is; "who cares about studies?"

Then when I explain the reasoning behind the misinterpretation you get pissy, try to insult me and disparage my business-- which happens to help support this site.

Experts? Pffft. Children.


I thought this board was about observation, analysis and contributing ideas but apparently LS wants it to be just a confirmation of previously held concepts whether they're right or wrong. .

Nelson, Its not just this article, it about 1000 that you dismiss! I am just tired of you trying to disprove something just to boost your ego and the profits of your product.

I dont profit from the sales of SERMs, but you profit from the sales of your products.

Believe me, I care about this site and I am greatful for our sponsors, but I will not let a sponsor influence our new members into buying an OTC supplement that doesn not take the place of a tried and true substance that has helped thousands. And no you didnt plug your product this time, but I am sure it was coming. You probably would PM the poor guy anyway...I'm sorry, I shouldnt have said that.

I will say that your products are a solid addition, but they dont help the HPTA restart.

SERMs have been proven to have properties that influence the stimulation of LH, FSH, and natural test production.

I have personal blood work that backs up this phenomenom, which is how you put it. A plecebo...LOL

SERMs work! Your porducts are a good addtition to PCT, but don't come here and just dismiss SERMs, because it is confusing to the new members who are trying to learn.

 

[arby]

Notice also that it said "signifcant improvement". What the hell does that mean? I've never seen a legitimate scientific study that didn't state exact numbers.

Have you even read the study? Or just the abstract?

(And thank you LS for saying what's on everyone's mind.)

RB

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson, Its not just this article, it about 1000 that you dismiss! I am just tired of you trying to disprove something just to boost your ego and the profits of your product.

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OKAY, NOW YOU'RE LYING. I DID NOT MENTION MY PRODUCTS ONCE. AND THERE ARE'NT THOUSANDS OF STUDIES ON THIS. THERE AREN'T HUNDREDS. I DON'T EVEN THINK THERE'S A DOZEN. AND WHATEVER THERE IS IS UNDER VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH OFTEN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT PEOPLE HERE ARE DOING. THAT'S A FACT. OR DO YOU NOT WANT THE FACTS TO BE KNOWN?




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I dont profit from the sales of SERMs, but you profit from the sales of your products.


......................................


THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. I WAS RESPONDING TO A POST, JUST AS I HAVE RESPONDED TO MANY OTHERS. IT IS YOU WHO ARE MAKING ACCUSATIONS TOWARD ME FOR NO OTHER REASON OTHER THAN YOU DISAGREE WITH ME.




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Believe me, I care about this site and I am greatful for our sponsors, but I will not let a sponsor influence our new members into buying an OTC supplement that doesn not take the place of a tried and true substance that has helped thousands.


......................................


IF IT'S SO TRIED AND TRUE, HOW COME SOME PEOPLE STILL GET GYNO? HOW COME SOME PEOPLE EXPERIENCE HORRIBLE SIDE EFFECTS? HOW COME SOME PEOPLE EXPERIENCE A SEVERE DROP IN LIBIDO? HOW COME SOME PEOPLE TAKE MONTHS TO RECOVER? HOW COME SOME PEOPLE NEVER RECOVER AND MUST GO ON Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)? YOU'RE WRONG ON THIS ONE LS.



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And no you didnt plug your product this time, but I am sure it was coming. You probably would PM the poor guy anyway...I'm sorry, I shouldnt have said that.

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THERE'S A BUTTON ON YOUR KEYBOARD THAT SAYS "DELETE."


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I will say that your products are a solid addition, but they dont help the HPTA restart.


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WELL, THANK YOU. BUT THAT ISN'T THE TOPIC HERE -- OR AT LEAST IT WASN'T UNTIL YOU MADE IT ONE THEN STARTED RANTING AGAINST IT.


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SERMs have been proven to have properties that influence the stimulation of LH, FSH, and natural test production.


......................................



WELL, THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES THAT SHOWS CLOMID TO LOWER FSH AND RAISE SHBG. IN THE STUDY POSTED A HGHER DOSAGE DID NOTHING. I FIN THAT VERY INTERESTING.

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I have personal blood work that backs up this phenomenom, which is how you put it. A plecebo...LOL


......................................



I HAVE BLOOD WORK DONE TOO. WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

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SERMs work! Your porducts are a good addtition to PCT, but don't come here and just dismiss SERMs, because it is confusing to the new members who are trying to learn.

......................................


I'M SORRY IF YOU CONSIDER ADDITIONAL DATA "CONFUSING."

AND AS FOR ARBY: SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

 

[liftsiron]

Nelson

 

[sifu]

Nelson for gods sake, real world results speak larger than studies. And sorry to bust your post cycle bubble. But I know far to many people that nolva and clomid have worked for. I have yet to hear anyone rave about your product.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson for gods sake, real world results speak larger than studies. And sorry to bust your post cycle bubble. But I know far to many people that nolva and clomid have worked for. I have yet to hear anyone rave about your product.

Just because you may be ignorant of certain information doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I agree wholehardedly that real world results speak larger than studies. But whenever I've said that, I get shit from people saying they want to see studies. You can't have it both ways. And as far as real world results go, I see a lot of instances where Clomid and Nolva don't work very well.

There are plenty of raves about my products. They haven't been out long but those who have tried them like them. There are some mentions on this board, on others and you can always go to www.proteinfactory.com and read the reviews. Or you can choose to remain ignorant.

 

[sifu]

You are the only one being ignorant nelson. SO are you telling me that all Vida texts are lies? How about other medical jounals? So you are going to try and say that your product works better than nolva or clomid?

Obviously I am not the only one calling bullshit, mods are as well.

 

[jcp2]

Do serms work, yes, to some degree in most of us. Do they not work in some, sure. Do Nelson's products work, they definately made my recovery easier last cycle on less clomid than i usually use, and for a shorter time. But he does have a point, you guys blast him about not reading studies, and then you turn around and speak of real world results, which i will say makes up the majority of all his preachings. I DO NOT agree with all he says, but i will discuss it, and i do not agree with the entirety of what most poeple say. I will say this, most of you bashing him are on a bandwagon and really have no basis to say anything accept it is the popular stand at the moment. And i have seen people not recover on clomid, and i have seen people recover, including myself pretty easily wth nothing.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

Do serms work, yes, to some degree in most of us. Do they not work in some, sure. Do Nelson's products work, they definately made my recovery easier last cycle on less clomid than i usually use, and for a shorter time. But he does have a point, you guys blast him about not reading studies, and then you turn around and speak of real world results, which i will say makes up the majority of all his preachings. I DO NOT agree with all he says, but i will discuss it, and i do not agree with the entirety of what most poeple say. I will say this, most of you bashing him are on a bandwagon and really have no basis to say anything accept it is the popular stand at the moment. And i have seen people not recover on clomid, and i have seen people recover, including myself pretty easily wth nothing.

JCP2, don't get me wrong, it was not meant to bash Nelson, but he leaves us no choice.

I will always make a comment when debating with him and say that his products help, but he never budges when it comes to SERMs.

Although it doesnt work in some, it works a hell of a lot more than it doesnt. The newbies need to know this. SERMs are cheap and easy to get.

My own endocrinologist prescibed me clomid when I had low test levels and was trying to have a baby. He didnt know I used steroids, so there must be trials and studies that show that SERMs have a positive effect on LH, FSH, and natural test, or he couldnt prescibe it to me.

I understand that SERMs dont work well for some, but that just justify the dismissal of the drug. I mean viagra doesnt work for some, but that doesnt mean it doesnt work altogether.

Do you see where I am going with this?

 

[Nelson Montana]

You are the only one being ignorant nelson. SO are you telling me that all Vida texts are lies? How about other medical jounals? So you are going to try and say that your product works better than nolva or clomid?

Obviously I am not the only one calling bullshit, mods are as well.

Your argument is invalid in every way.

I never said all Vida texts are lies.

I never said anything about any other medical journals.

I never said my products were better, or a substitute, for Clomid or Nolva.


As far as calling bullshit -- call it. What did I say that was bullshit? I brought up the study in question. You made a personal attack. Do you see the difference?





LS: Don't put words in my mouth. I was discussing the post that said a higher dosage of Nolva did no good. You can make a stronger point by sticking to the facts.

Doctors prescribe lots of things that sometimes work, sometimes don't.


I NEVER told a newbie not to take precautions. But I believe the precautions should be with proper dosages -- something that is woefully ignored at times. And if anti e's are needed I recommend A-dex and have done so many, many, times. So your accusations are off base and ill directed.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

Nelson, in every debate we have ever had, you have never told someone to use a SERM. To me that means you think they dont work. You have told me many times that their effects were a plecebo.

Look we are beating a dead horse. Lets just agree to disagree!

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson, in every debate we have ever had, you have never told someone to use a SERM. To me that means you think they dont work. You have told me many times that their effects were a plecebo.

Look we are beating a dead horse. Lets just agree to disagree!

Fine. But I'm not going to agree to be misquoted.

Two quick corrections: I do believe AT TIMES, the effects of Clomid are inert and people simply recover over time.

Plus; I have recommened A-dex. Again, the fact that you are unaware of it, does not mean it isn't so.

NOW, we can agree to disagree.