Experience with long esters? (Nebido)

[Misc]

I hear members here saying more fequent injection intervals are always better, but this depends on the product.

Test e is injected weekly, and this generally keeps fairly stable levels. But as has been said nebido has a much longer ester and as such it would be pointless to administer nebido at a rate similar to that conventionally carried out with test e.

Guys who have been on test e weekly or something equivalent have to open their minds to new advances in medicine and not place nebido in the same class as test e or cyp because frankly it is far superior, and the studys show this to be true.

When i first started studying forums on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), i found guys telling people that nebido was no use because of the 10 wk intervals and that weekly injections were superior. As such this was what i thought and was arguing with my endo in favour of the weekly test e. But upon further reading and studying of the subject i have discovered that i was wrong, and most of the advice regarding weekly injects was coming from the US guys. When speaking to UK guys who have been on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) they have told me it has changed their lives. They get the same treatment and benefits that they had for all of those years on test e or cyp without the hinderance of regular injectionns!

Have a look at this link, and click on "view presentation" to view an informative little slide show on it.

agingmale2006.com/abstracts/abs_sag_nebido_hypogonadal_men.asp

and for this presentation also

agingmale2006.com/transcripts/transcript_sag_long-acting_vs_standard_testosterone.asp

The above shows some good graphs establishing the half life of test undeca, also this is a reasonable study carried out over approx 9 years if my memory serves me correctly.

Some further reading for board members to educate themselfs further if the interest is there are provided below.

Endocrine society journal

jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/11/5429.full

drugs.com/nda/nebido_070828.html

you totally missed the point. if i were taking test suspension i would be taking it every day. if i was taking prop i would be dong it every other day. if i was taking cyp or enanth i would be going every 5 days. with neibido i would probably do every two weeks or every 10 days.

Test is test. the only difference is the ester. neibido is not far superior to the others it just has a longer half life. i don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand.

 

[Artyi]

you totally missed the point. if i were taking test suspension i would be taking it every day. if i was taking prop i would be dong it every other day. if i was taking cyp or enanth i would be going every 5 days. with neibido i would probably do every two weeks or every 10 days.

Test is test. the only difference is the ester. neibido is not far superior to the others it just has a longer half life. i don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand.

It is not hard to understand, but in usage directions it is written to inject every 10-12 weeks. And the loading (second injection) after 6 weeks.

The reason why you have to inject it with such large gaps, because it is sold only by 4ml ampules. Not less... Of course, you can play with it and find your point of injecting it more frequently, but I guess it is a lot of blood work and etc. to determine at which point your Test Serum will decrease.

 

[Misc]

It is not hard to understand, but in usage directions it is written to inject every 10-12 weeks. And the loading (second injection) after 6 weeks.

The reason why you have to inject it with such large gaps, because it is sold only by 4ml ampules. Not less... Of course, you can play with it and find your point of injecting it more frequently, but I guess it is a lot of blood work and etc. to determine at which point your Test Serum will decrease.

why does it matter what kind of amp in comes in. you can buy an empty sterile vile and put it in there after popping open the ampule...

id like to try neibodo if i could. it may help with people not having to take an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) cause of the long ester and if you dosed it more frequest it would be very stable in the blood. read cashouts post on what he did to get off an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). he ended up doing test cyp at every 3 days for more stable levels and got off adex.

First, I am a big believer in not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if that is at all possible while on HRT.

With that said, it requires a little differnt approach to HRT than what I've seen around here over the past few years. That may be a function of the people designing the protocols. Regardless, I know non-AI HRT can be tricky but it can be done and I fiddled around with it for a while when I was on HRT so I know it takes some doing.

I am very estrogen sensitive. So it was a big step for me to move off of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) while I was on HRT.

So here is what I learned and why I suggest not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if you can avoid it.

First, Aromatase inhibitor (AI) use over long term, which HRT is, will skew lipid profiles. That is not good for us guys in the 40+ crowd. That increases our risk for cardiovascular issues.

Next, they seem to have an impact on connective tissue and joints. I have talked with many of you who have expressed issues with joints and convective tissue after significant time using AIs. I, myself, experienced the very same things and I've never had connective tissue or joint problems in my life. After 5 months of using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) I did.

Lastly, long term Aromatase inhibitor (AI) use also contributes to a reduction in naturally produced GH. There is research that indicates that to be plausible and I experienced it first had as have some of you all.

So, what do we do to avoid using an AI?

Well, I think the most important thing to do is taper your Test dosages up very very slowly and monitor the blood changes including estrogen.

I, like a lot of guys on here, started my HRT with a 200 mg per week of test cyp dosage. Many of you guys are 200 mgs every 5 days.

What starts to happen on these type of dosage is we see significant peeks in total test in the 30-48 after injections that are well beyond normal physiological ranges. It would happened to me. I take my weekly 200 mg shot and BANG my levels would rocket up to 2000+ ng/dl and fall back to 1000 ng/dl over the course of the week. By drawing my blood work throughout the week and watching it, my estrogen would spike shortly after my test peeked and it too would drop back down to over the course of the week until my next weekly injection. So, being estrogen sensitive, I started to have issues. I assumed like many of us, "Hey, I need an AI!" So, I got on one and things got better. Sure after 5 months my joints were starting to hurt and my lipids were shifting but my estrogen was staying near 20 so I was all good.

Then I started to think. If I eliminate the test peeks that were cause the estrogen issues, I could quite the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and my joints might feel better. So, I started injecting smaller dosages more frequently. First on a 2 day a week schedule, then on a 3 day a week schedule. Guess what? It worked. My total test number peeks got smoother and smoother and my estrogen started to drop into the low single digits so I started to taper out the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) altogether. As i did that my estrogen returned to a comfortable level of 24 and and it stayed fairly stable there even though I was still using 200 mgs over the course of 7 days. I eliminated the peeks and the problem.

So, what took me months and months of trial and error to fix could have been handled on the front end if I had spread my injections out over multiple smaller applications during the week.

Of course, 3-4 injects during the week could actually present significant pains in the butt - really. So, that is why I switched to pinning with insulin needles. If I needed to, I could pin 25 mg of test cyp every day with an insulin pin and never have any discomfort at all.


So, there is my 2 cents on AIs. For long term HRT guys, I think we should work toward the goal of not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if at all possible. I've mentioned how I worked toward that objective.

I know some will always need Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and that is fine, but I'd suggest try to go without or as little as possible. No need to put another drug in the body when some proper protocol management techniques can eliminate the need for it.

 

[Artyi]

I have few questions on the last reply.

After 4 months being on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) my estrogen levels are low and I don't need a Aromatase inhibitor (AI) right now.
But It seems, from the arguments above, with the time it can change? And at some point, after a half year or a year, I will need it?

The Case

Ok, so let us imagine a situation with taking "Nebido". If it goes in an ampule of 4ml, which has to be shot every 10-12 weeks.
So if we want a more stable test, we would shoot it by 1ml every 2.5 weeks?

In my case after 3.5 months of using Test Enan.: 250mg/week, my Test Serum on the 4th day is 750 [Range: 300-1000].

What could be a scenario?

 

[Senechal]

My nebido experience

First off, a huge thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. It's been extremely informative, and it sounds like there are quite a few folks here that are a good deal more knowledgable than my MD.

I have been on Nebido for about 6 months (I was not on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) prior to Nebido) and I thought I'd chime in with my experience:

The first 4 weeks were fantastic in so many ways. I was back on my game athletically, professionally, sexually, creatively...basically everything rocked. I was a big fan. By the end of my 6 week loading phase, I was already back to having zero libido and being low on energy.

The second injection was good, but not great. I had mild prostate swelling and dull pain occasionally. Libido was decent but seemed to come and go. Still, my workouts were great and my energy level remained consistently improved.

Now I'm on my fourth injection and I have to say there's been a steady decline in the positive effects with each injection. It's completely clear to me that despite the manufacturer's claims of 10-14 week sustained release, the effects seem to collapse pretty significantly after 5-6 weeks. This has been a brutal roller coaster as my MD refuses to give me another shot inside the 10 week period -- which leaves me with 4 weeks of low-T hell.

I've been self-medicating with Andriol Testocaps to see me through the low-T phase until my next injection. And I stop the Andriol a few days before my bloodwork because I'm afraid my MD will see my levels and hold off on the nebido.

I have to agree with the posters above who say nebido's half-life is shorter than advertised. I would say it's MUCH shorter. As I said, 6 weeks in and the effects seem to be gone completely.

Fortunately I live in a country where Andriol is pretty much over-the-counter (Thailand) so I can "top up" when I crash off the Nebido. But I'm considering using a different short-term ester because I'd prefer a smoother ride.

 

[Megatron28]

First off, a huge thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. It's been extremely informative, and it sounds like there are quite a few folks here that are a good deal more knowledgable than my MD.

I have been on Nebido for about 6 months (I was not on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) prior to Nebido) and I thought I'd chime in with my experience:

The first 4 weeks were fantastic in so many ways. I was back on my game athletically, professionally, sexually, creatively...basically everything rocked. I was a big fan. By the end of my 6 week loading phase, I was already back to having zero libido and being low on energy.

The second injection was good, but not great. I had mild prostate swelling and dull pain occasionally. Libido was decent but seemed to come and go. Still, my workouts were great and my energy level remained consistently improved.

Now I'm on my fourth injection and I have to say there's been a steady decline in the positive effects with each injection. It's completely clear to me that despite the manufacturer's claims of 10-14 week sustained release, the effects seem to collapse pretty significantly after 5-6 weeks. This has been a brutal roller coaster as my MD refuses to give me another shot inside the 10 week period -- which leaves me with 4 weeks of low-T hell.

I've been self-medicating with Andriol Testocaps to see me through the low-T phase until my next injection. And I stop the Andriol a few days before my bloodwork because I'm afraid my MD will see my levels and hold off on the nebido.

I have to agree with the posters above who say nebido's half-life is shorter than advertised. I would say it's MUCH shorter. As I said, 6 weeks in and the effects seem to be gone completely.

Fortunately I live in a country where Andriol is pretty much over-the-counter (Thailand) so I can "top up" when I crash off the Nebido. But I'm considering using a different short-term ester because I'd prefer a smoother ride.

1) Try injecting smaller doses more frequently.
2) check your estradiol levels. They may be getting too high.
3) Check your trough Total Test levels to see where you are bottoming out to.

Good luck!

 

[GrandpaHulk]

Hate to bump such an old thread in my first post too... But this is one of the best threads on Nebido I found, and I spend the past 2 weeks looking at every page I could find.

A few comments. TU half-life does indeed vary on the ester. In Castor Oil as used in the current Nebido formulation, it's very long, so by the time the 2nd (loading) shot comes and thereafter with subsequent scheduled-shots, levels do build up to a nice stable foundation level (for TRT) even at trough. Also, the product is marketed for TRT, not specifically for gains in the gym. Keep that in mind, if it means slightly more frequent injections for piling on the beef, so be it.

My blood test T level before TRT was 2.0 Yes 2.0 Boy George would kick sand in my face. Got a blood test again in about 3 months, my Doc is pretty keen to help in any way.

Gains after 6 weeks are around 18 pounds commensurate with size & strength gains that are blowing my mind, and I'm still just eating to lose bodyfat right now, minimal calories. Eg typical meal is half a lettuce with a tin of tuna in water, or a chicken breast with steamed broccoli - very atypical for building muscle I know. But, I grow.

Will keep posting if any interest.

 

[scorob777]

So what is your injection dosage and frequency? Are they doing the 4mls at 12 weeks routine?

 

[GrandpaHulk]

So what is your injection dosage and frequency? Are they doing the 4mls at 12 weeks routine?

Doc happy to go with a 'see how you feel' approach to the shots, the 2nd (loading) one is this week. I do feel a sense of wellness I can't remember for decades.


edit

I forgot to add, I been on a very well-maintained ketogenic food intake over the past 16 months. Keeping carbs to under 30 grams a day and again, feel very well on it. There isn't the same 'pump' you get from training with a carb rich diet, but on the other hand, I can definitely get more reps going through the lactic acid 'burn' barrier - Or maybe my pain barrier is simply higher being older, I don't know.

My T levels were extraordinary low, and no doubt as a result, I was very blood anaemic too for more years than I remember. The Doc could never fix it, even with iron supplements. Always tired, lots of brain fog and indecisiveness.

Not now ;-)