For the people who think you cannot work part of a muscle

[jcp2]

This is the explanation i have been looking for posted by boldwarrior at irontrbe. This is exactly the thoughts i have had on it for years but never able to state them.



I remember the basics that Arnold says in his massive bood on training. To find out where exactly a muscle is being worked if you dont know, do the following. 20 sets of 20reps of that particular exercise. Then, the following day, sheer pain will tell you exactly where you worked....
And as for, if you exercise a muscle, the whole muscle will contract and get a workout.
What a balls, its more like, a small section of the muscle will contract fully (muscle spindals) and the others will sit and wait basically. so, if you look at say close grip chins, they are getting pulled in a pretty straight line up, so the muscles running along the lats will contract 1st. so, as you are getting fatigued, the spindles that are along that straight plain will get targeted 1st basically. due to the angle of pull, its the lower lat region that will be activated 1st and fatigue 1st. even though the upper region will still get hit, it wont fully activate all muscle spindals in that region unlike the muscle spindals in the region of the lower lats. I guess, techniqually you could do close grip chins till failure and then widen your grip and see if you can do more?? something i might try. also, you could do wide grip chins followed by close grip chins upon failure?? According to Debaser theroy, it should be impossable!!!!
Debaser will you, do the Arnold test?? 20 sets of 20reps. Say close grip lat pull downs. then the following day, let us know where the most sore'st part of your body is!!
The challenge is on......

 

[AngryMuscles]

dang..20 sets of 20 reps...crazy..yet fun!

 

[jcp2]

dang..20 sets of 20 reps...crazy..yet fun!

That wasn't really the point, this is what i have been trying to say all along yet people who are gym teachers and took one anatomy class in 1977 come along with the "the muscle beign worked fires in all the fibers" routine, which is true but doen't really address anything. Once again something that got started on the net that is just fucking repeated over and over again. I did inclnes for the first time in a year the other day and my upper chest was sore, plain and simple.

 

[luquillo78]

Interesting post.
But it's not the same to talk about upper/middle/lower chest that outer/inner chest.

 

[jcp2]

I thought this was interesting too:

--------
Electromyogr Clin Neurophysiol. 1995 Aug-Sep;35(5):301-9. Related Articles, Links


Functional differentiation within latissimus dorsi.

Paton ME, Brown JM.

Department of Biomedical Science, University of Wollongong, Australia.

"Functional differentiation" within skeletal muscle refers to the ability of the Central Nervous System (CNS) to control, with a degree of independence, individual subunits of a muscle during a particular muscle contraction. Essentially, the concept of functional differentiation within skeletal muscle suggests an ability of the CNS to selectively activate those segments of a muscle which have the most appropriate line of action for the task as a means of ensuring the muscles efficient utilisation. The present study was undertaken to determine whether functional differentiation was present within the radiate muscle, Latissimus Dorsi, during a series of isometric muscle contractions. Six surface electrode pairs were placed along the origin of the muscle and electromyographic (EMG) potentials were recorded during isometric contractions in various planes and levels of contraction intensity. The EMG waveforms were integrated (IEMG) and then normalised. The normalised EMG waveforms (nIEMG) were then statistically compared to determine if muscle fibres within the detection area of each electrode pair had varied their contribution to the total activity of the muscle, from one isometric contraction to another. Alterations in the contribution of each site were taken to be indicative of functional differentiation. The results of this study indicated that functional differentiation did occur within Latissimus Dorsi. In essence, the most caudal fibres were utilised preferentially when subjects performed adduction from an abducted position of the shoulder joint. Conversely, activity was distributed over the entire muscle when subjects attempted adduction from the anatomical position. A similar situation was observed when subjects performed horizontal extension from either a flexed or abducted position.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 7498076 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[jcp2]

Interesting post.
But it's not the same to talk about upper/middle/lower chest that outer/inner chest.

Why is that, you have never been sore in your upper chest? Also where did you gain this knowledge, because it is obviously not real world. Which means you read it on another message board.

 

[blackbeard]

hmmmmm
ive always believed that varying an exercise will "hit" one part more than the other but as a whole you cant "isolate"

kinda like many people say i wanna hit my lower pec more..i dont think you can hit "just" your lower pec..
same way i dont think you can just do heavy back work and not doi direct bicep work..i just think you dont need a whole training session devoted to "arms"..i think doing bi's twice a week@ 3-5 sets will be much better than 15 sets once per week

personally as far as chest development is concerned meaning aesthetics i always thought inlcines gave me good pecs..now they are just droopy LOL

 

[jcp2]

hmmmmm
ive always believed that varying an exercise will "hit" one part more than the other but as a whole you cant "isolate"

kinda like many people say i wanna hit my lower pec more..i dont think you can hit "just" your lower pec..
same way i dont think you can just do heavy back work and not doi direct bicep work..i just think you dont need a whole training session devoted to "arms"..i think doing bi's twice a week@ 3-5 sets will be much better than 15 sets once per week

personally as far as chest development is concerned meaning aesthetics i always thought inlcines gave me good pecs..now they are just droopy LOL

yup, i built an upper chest without a fucking doubt. It is gone now though, lol. Obviously you can not hit one part of one muscle without hitting it all, but as i always thought changing the leverages can hit one area more than another.

 

[luquillo78]

Why is that, you have never been sore in your upper chest? Also where did you gain this knowledge, because it is obviously not real world. Which means you read it on another message board.

I've been sore in my upper chest many times, but never just in my inner or outer chest. That's what I meant by saying it's not the same.
I understand you can work more upper, middle or lower fibres but I can't understand how you can work just a part of a fibre...
My knowledge quiet poor but comes from my experience and not from another message board. Understand that I agree with the thing of upper or lower chest but never experienced that with inner or outer chest.

 

[jcp2]

I've been sore in my upper chest many times, but never just in my inner or outer chest. That's what I meant by saying it's not the same.
I understand you can work more upper, middle or lower fibres but I can't understand how you can work just a part of a fibre...
My knowledge quiet poor but comes from my experience and not from another message board. Understand that I agree with the thing of upper or lower chest but never experienced that with inner or outer chest.

I am no expert on any of this, but i have heard way too many people talk about bringing up areas for it not to have some merit. It always made sense to me that even if all muscle fibers fired when doing a lift, that when put in certain positions more work would be asked of certain areas of the muscle, thus increasing hypertrophy in the area. I am not even sure if i am explaining this correct, but it seems that one of the study up thier kind of says the same thing.

 

[Mudge]

This came from Vince Gironda, not Arnold.

 

[pretty ricky]

i definately feel soreness diferently when i change an exercise or angle or hand postion any little change can make it feel diferently.lf thats what yall sayin i dont know fuck it i just lift the damn bar!

 

[iamcdn]

i think i remember reading over at Lyles board:

"Anyhow, DOMS appears to be more related to inflammation of connective tissue, not muscle anyhow. It has no real relevance to growth, nor does it indicate per se what muscle got the greatest training effect."

so by doign 20x20, the next days pain (DOMS) could be inflammation of connective tissue

 

[gator_mclusky]

Yea, I started the thread about targeting the lower lats and all hell broke loose. It got pretty heated. Debaser blew a nut trying to tell me you cant target specific parts.

Great post by Boldwarrior.

Gator

 

[jack720]

Hello Mates. This is my first post in this forum. I've been working out for quite a bit now, it's been almost a year of extremely intensive training for all bodyparts (biting my teeth from the pain the entire time), and I must say I am satisfied with my progression. The thing is that I have suffered since I was a little kid from spondylitis, which is a degenerative disease that is described by the attack of inflamation on the spinal coloumn, which in long term if not taken care of, could leave you disabled and with a deformed spine. And still even if you pay maximum attention to it, there is yet no medication to stop the it's progression (no cure). By medication one could just slow it down. In this context it is extremely important that one who is undergoing this medical condition keep the back muscles strong to keep the spine well protected from injuries and keep it moving for daily activity. That's why I worship bodybuilding as my life-saver.

As I wrote above, I have developed a good upper back and lats. The problem for me stands in the spinal erectors which are poorly developed (barely visible, and very poorly developed from what can be seen in the lower back region). I have excessive fatigue in this area during the day at work. I am currently doing a 3 day on - 4 day off weekly training (once every 2 days, with saturday and sunday off). For the back on the 1st day, I'm doing hyperextensions and weighed hyperextensions for warmup along with the stretching and all, and I'm concentrating on deadlifting 4 sets of max reps, bent over barbell rows 3 sets of max reps, and wide grip lat pullups 2 - 3 sets max reps, for one hour of training in total. Also in the days off I do mild exercises to keep my back in shape and moving (which is very important for my condition). And I must say that I'm feeling much better with my condition since I started training. I move more, I started playing impact sports, etc. Maybe I could post some pictures of my progression so that you give me your expert advices based on what you see. But I'm leaving this for later.

Also I'm not using any suplements, but could consider later.
I'd like to ask luquillo78 what is your back workout routine mate? Could you also give some tips that you follow during different exercises.

Regards
Jack

 

[Annonomous432]

being that this thread was started in 2005 his routine might have changed since then. Or he might not even be posting anymore

 

[AngryMuscles]

i still want to know arnold's best lifts on bench/squat/deads

 

[Skarhead1]

being that this thread was started in 2005 his routine might have changed since then. Or he might not even be posting anymore

i think jcp still believes in this

 

[pineapple]

This is the explanation i have been looking for posted by boldwarrior at irontrbe. This is exactly the thoughts i have had on it for years but never able to state them.



I remember the basics that Arnold says in his massive bood on training. To find out where exactly a muscle is being worked if you dont know, do the following. 20 sets of 20reps of that particular exercise. Then, the following day, sheer pain will tell you exactly where you worked....
And as for, if you exercise a muscle, the whole muscle will contract and get a workout.
What a balls, its more like, a small section of the muscle will contract fully (muscle spindals) and the others will sit and wait basically. so, if you look at say close grip chins, they are getting pulled in a pretty straight line up, so the muscles running along the lats will contract 1st. so, as you are getting fatigued, the spindles that are along that straight plain will get targeted 1st basically. due to the angle of pull, its the lower lat region that will be activated 1st and fatigue 1st. even though the upper region will still get hit, it wont fully activate all muscle spindals in that region unlike the muscle spindals in the region of the lower lats. I guess, techniqually you could do close grip chins till failure and then widen your grip and see if you can do more?? something i might try. also, you could do wide grip chins followed by close grip chins upon failure?? According to Debaser theroy, it should be impossable!!!!
Debaser will you, do the Arnold test?? 20 sets of 20reps. Say close grip lat pull downs. then the following day, let us know where the most sore'st part of your body is!!
The challenge is on......

Good info.