gyno?

[lwilder]

I think i overread about the gyno-problem, and now im starting to belive i have it And im barely on gear!

I was just curious how you know you got gyno, its not like you wake up one morning and bam! some Double D's hit you in the face?

There ought to be some symptoms like pain in the nipples and such?

 

[GymLift]

I've never used Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) but I have gyno. I do not remember how I got it.

Pretty common to get gyno during adolescence.

 

[lwilder]

hehe.

Well, ok.. im on deca @ 400mg a week, i have been for on for two weeks,
and i feel that my nipple is a bit sore, especially after reading all that about gyno, i were just wondering what the sympthoms for gyno where.
thats all

 

[GymLift]

Well, ok.. im on deca @ 400mg a week, i have been for on for two weeks,
and i feel that my nipple is a bit sore, especially after reading all that about gyno, i were just wondering what the sympthoms for gyno where.
thats all

The first signs are usually increased sensitivity or puffiness.

Are you on doing your first cycle? deca only?

 

[lwilder]

The first signs are usually increased sensitivity or puffiness.

Are you on doing your first cycle? deca only?

its my 2nd cycle, had one about 5 months ago, and it was great.
The reason for deca only is that i feel the effects are good enought.

Its not more sensitive, it just hurts a little, and its only the right one.

Im waiting for tomax right now.

It could be me just reading all to much about gyno
Thats why i where wondering about symptoms.

 

[GymLift]

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) isn't likely to help much for gyno from deca (prolactin gyno).

 

[lwilder]

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) isn't likely to help much for gyno from deca (prolactin gyno).

lets not be hasty here, im dont belive i have gyno, im just a little bit sore.
What would you recommend to be safe?

 

[GymLift]

I just thought you should know.

Deca is a progestin. Progestin's stimulate prolactin. Prolactin stimulates gyno and lactation.

You're right: you're probably fine. But if you do start to lactate, then vitamin B6 might be the easy fix. Start out at 600-800mg/day until symptoms subside and then decrease to 200mg/day. But vitamin B6 doesn't work for everyone. Bromo and Dostinex lower prolactin, but they come with side effects are are certainly more difficult to get. In the USA, they are prescription only medications that aren't currently available from research companies.

 

[Bruce Banner]

Progestin's stimulate prolactin.

Is this true?

I have never seen anything that supposts that.

/Bruce

 

[GymLift]

Is this true?

I have never seen anything that supposts that.

/Bruce

I have found tremendous anecdotal evidence of such. You can find it at:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4

I reject the claim that gyno from deca or tren is due simply to the ratio of E to T+DHT because estrogen induced gynecomastia doesn't come with lactation. Furthermore, the problem typically resolves with administration of vitamin B6, Bromo or Dostinex. Thus, I am confident that prolactin is high.

It would be very interesting to see a blood test for:
prolactin
estradiol for men
total estrogens

From one of these guys taking only deca or tren but that is lactating. But I haven't seen such as of yet, so oh well.

Can prolactin gyno occur without the prescence of estrogen? Probably not, but I do think that it can and does occur in the presence of normal levels of estradiol.

Now, with all of that said, I certainly can not say with much certainty how the deca and trenbolone cause an increase in prolactin, so perhaps I went too far in my statement. I, like others, have speculated that their progestin activity somehow stimulates the prolactin release. But perhaps there is an action unknown, such as stimulating the prolactin receptors (?) directly.

In searching through google, it seems like there might be evidence that, at least in the case of pregenant women, progesterone goes up which stimulates prolactin which is necessary to get the milk going for the baby. But I haven't done enough research. I apparently haven't found very good keywords to find the best articles.

One problem we have is that there aren't a lot of studies on men using deca or trenbolone.

 

[MuffDyver]

after my 4th shot of test i thought i had gyno of some sort. i woke up and my nipple hurt real bad and it had a lump below it. was also red underneath but it went away the next day.

 

[Bruce Banner]

I have found tremendous anecdotal evidence of such. You can find it at:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4

I reject the claim that gyno from deca or tren is due simply to the ratio of E to T+DHT because estrogen induced gynecomastia doesn't come with lactation. Furthermore, the problem typically resolves with administration of vitamin B6, Bromo or Dostinex. Thus, I am confident that prolactin is high.

It would be very interesting to see a blood test for:
prolactin
estradiol for men
total estrogens

From one of these guys taking only deca or tren but that is lactating. But I haven't seen such as of yet, so oh well.

Can prolactin gyno occur without the prescence of estrogen? Probably not, but I do think that it can and does occur in the presence of normal levels of estradiol.

Now, with all of that said, I certainly can not say with much certainty how the deca and trenbolone cause an increase in prolactin, so perhaps I went too far in my statement. I, like others, have speculated that their progestin activity somehow stimulates the prolactin release. But perhaps there is an action unknown, such as stimulating the prolactin receptors (?) directly.

In searching through google, it seems like there might be evidence that, at least in the case of pregenant women, progesterone goes up which stimulates prolactin which is necessary to get the milk going for the baby. But I haven't done enough research. I apparently haven't found very good keywords to find the best articles.

One problem we have is that there aren't a lot of studies on men using deca or trenbolone.

Well, I follow you but disagree strongly.

And SERMS can be used to lower prolactin. Progestins can uppgrade the ER, and make things worse.
---------------------------------------------------
Gut. 1982 Apr;23(4):276-9.
Progesterone, prolactin, and gynaecomastia in men with liver disease.
Farthing MJ, Green JR, Edwards CR, Dawson AM.

" Plasma progesterone was raised in 36 of 50 (72%) men with liver disease compared with 20 healthy male control subjects. Plasma progesterone was significantly higher in men with non-alcoholic cirrhosis with gynaecomastia than those without, but no similar relationship was found in men with alcoholic fatty change and alcoholic cirrhosis. Hyperprolactinaemia was found in 14% of men with liver disease but levels were unrelated to the presence of gynaecomastia. Increased circulating levels of progesterone and prolactin alone do not explain the development of gynaecomastia in patients with liver disease, but progesterone may be an additional factor acting in association with the known disturbances of other sex steroids."

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2.
High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.
Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K.

"Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism."

/Bruce

 

[lwilder]

The only thing i got out of that is that there is not likly to get gyno with deca only?

and going on nolva wouldnt solve anything?


ill look up that vitamin b6 just to be safe, and the pain in my nipple is gone now, i may think i overread about gyno earlier.

 

[GymLift]

Bruce: How do you explain the lactating? Lactating doesn't happen just from estrogen/estradiol.

 

[Bruce Banner]

Bruce: How do you explain the lactating? Lactating doesn't happen just from estrogen/estradiol.

I do not have the knowledge exactly how and what mecanisms that induce lactating in men. But I do not high levels of estrogen can lead to high levels of Prolactin. And that high levels of progesteron leads to low prolactin levels, at least in women. Prolactin is a fat bruning hormone, progesteron is the opposite.

I do not know if prolactin is necessary for lactating in men, is it?

/Bruce

 

[Bruce Banner]

The only thing i got out of that is that there is not likly to get gyno with deca only?

and going on nolva wouldnt solve anything?


ill look up that vitamin b6 just to be safe, and the pain in my nipple is gone now, i may think i overread about gyno earlier.

No it's not very likely thay you get gyno from a Deca cycle. And Nolvadex certanly CAN solve the problem, but it's not 100% (what is really?).

/Bruce

 

[lwilder]

No it's not very likely thay you get gyno from a Deca cycle. And Nolvadex certanly CAN solve the problem, but it's not 100% (what is really?).

/Bruce

ah, thanks
Calmed me down a bit anyway!

 

[GymLift]

I do not have the knowledge exactly how and what mecanisms that induce lactating in men. But I do not high levels of estrogen can lead to high levels of Prolactin. And that high levels of progesteron leads to low prolactin levels, at least in women. Prolactin is a fat bruning hormone, progesteron is the opposite.

Yes, elevated estrogens seem to promote prolactin release, but I believe estrogens must be grossly elevated to do so, because:
1) I have seen lab results from men with elevated total estrogens and elevated estradiol but perfectly normal prolactin.
2) We see guys that get gyno from estrogen all the time: this is clearly the case with gyno from testosterone only cycles. But, in these cases, we never see lactation.

I do not know if prolactin is necessary for lactating in men, is it?

I do know that sufficiently elevated prolactin will cause a man to lactate. Is it possible that something other than prolactin can stimulate lactation? Perhaps. But I do not believe that estrogen can stimulate lactation.

To simplify all of this logic, take a guy that is only taking deca and/or tren but has new symptoms of gyno and lactation. Give him Bromo or Dostinex, which lowers prolactin, and the symptoms go away.

Incase anyone want a quick rundown on prolactin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin

 

[GymLift]

No it's not very likely thay you get gyno from a Deca cycle. And Nolvadex certanly CAN solve the problem, but it's not 100% (what is really?).

/Bruce

Based on my observations of others, more often than not, Nolvadex seems to not work in a scenerio like that. But in the case of gyno from a testosterone only cycle (which increases estrogens), it seems to work the vast majority of the time.

 

[Bruce Banner]

Based on my observations of others, more often than not, Nolvadex seems to not work in a scenerio like that. But in the case of gyno from a testosterone only cycle (which increases estrogens), it seems to work the vast majority of the time.

That is not my experience and I belive it's a "truth" that has grown in the intenet forums without any real substance at all. It has gone so far that guys claming other possible reasons than raised prolactin get attacked for no reason as I see it.

I know a number of cases where Dostinex and Bromo did not do shit in the gyno department for guys using Deca and/or trenbolone. I have hade some problems with gyno in Deca cycles and testosteron, Nolvadex did the job just fine. To bee really honest, a number of factors can contribute to gyno but estrogen must be present and should be the first action taken with a SERM.

Seriously, how many have had lactating problems when doing Deca or trenbolone cycles ONLY?

/Bruce