Help lowering estrogen. ADVICE NEEDED

[Sobot]

Post finasteride syndrome- testicular atrophy - high estrogen

I am in similar position as Colin. I quit finasteride years ago. Had an initial testicular shrinkage and penis shortening and desensitization.

Last 6 months i have progressed to a more rapid testicular shrinkage. I have been loosing steadily 2 ml of testicle tissue per week some times i feel stinging pains around my genitals and into my veins some times i feel pains around prostate lately feeling also stinging pains and itchy nipples.

My tests are

Testo 460 mg/dl (300-1000)
Estradiol 55 pg/ml (<30 )
Estrone 53 pg/ml
Androstanediol Glucuronide 1.28 mg/dl (3.5 - 18)
LH 4.5 mIU
FSH 2.8 mIU
Progesterone 1.4 ng/dl (0.1-1)
Cholesterol 113 mg/dl
Free testo very high dont remember numbers
SHBG 18

I was ok till about 6 months ago as i said. Then i started having a bit more sex, a bit more alcohol and i saw my estradiol levels rapidly skyrocketing. It was around 30-35 last year and i had fewer episodes of testicular shrinkage (like once every 3 or 4 months). Now its a daily process. Some times i wake in pains. I suspected this and visited a clinic in Belgium and dr. Hertoghe and he told me in order to stop at least the inflammation rub T gel on my testicles to get dht back into my system and jump on arimidex.

Arimidex is strong for me, i get headaches. I tried aromasin for 4 days at 12.5 mg on its own, without any other SERM but think that it wasn't enough to see any results (i am inexperienced with all this)

Today visited the professor of endocrinology in our un. hospital. He don't believe estrogen is the cause of my shrinkage so i ask what is ??

I told him that we (post finasteride users) convert very little T to dht while on the same time aromatese activity is very high and this is toxic to our testicles but he said he couldn't accept a drug could to this after so many years.

Who cares. I just want to reserve and reverse the size of my testicles.

I am thinking of HcG too and possibly HmG too to give the testes the needed testicle and motive to increase and rise their endoggenous T levels to convert to dht and at the same time some aromasin but don't know of proper protocols.

Humididdly logic is very good and i would like him to expand more into his thinking as this cycling theory starts coinciding with what i also think that is happening in our bodies.

Very little 5-ar II activity to reduce T to dht and combat aromatase activity = high estradiol values, low dht and testicular atrophy

Offcourse this don't manifest in my body as complete HPTA shutdown but i see a very potent testicular atrophy which i cannot possibly explain OTHERWISE. I have no other disease to explain this shit. NONE. The only thing i find in my is the post-finasteride problem. I never used steroids. Never done other serious drugs. So what the fuck

I will also go for auto-immune testing to rule out some "autoimmune orchitis" theory which is very very rare case since it would also show up in the ultrasound.

Also, i would like to ask. My testicles have been in shits for years now, only decreasing in size, my libido is affected seriously, is it possible that i can reverse my testicles with this protocol of HcG (high doses) some serm (toremiphene) and aromasin???

Is a serm needed ?? I was thinking of going the lighter path using some 6-oxo to bring down estrogen and at the same time boost T. Would that work?? Or do i need the heavier shit for PCT???

Humididdly pls repeat your theory about HcG supplementation to give a cycle of T to convert to dht. I have a question though, because some say that HcG will also produce higher aromatase activity. How much is known abou that??

 

[Sobot]

Is that a good thing? Do you think proviron is a good idea then?


Also, you say i need testosterone for DHT conversion? But I do have a good testosterone level already and I had hoped that the anti-aromatase drugs will help increase it more (as aromasin is shown to do). Why is that, in your eyes, no sufficient? Is it because, in your opinion, the additional free testosterone (resulting from less e2 conversion) won't, in your opinion, result in DHT conversion, quickly enough naturally, to stimulate recovery? Or am i misconstruing what you mean?

As you said, you can only give me the information. I greatly appreciate that. I just want to understand exactly what you mean before deciding on things

Colin the good Testo levels you and I are both having is not enough probably to boost into dht because its a fake Testo level. If our 5-ar II activity was normal then this T level would probably be no more than 50% of what we have now. But since there is no conversion to DhT our T levels explode and some is converted into E2. So we either find a way to depress E2, which i tried with 4 days of aromasin but stopped since i didn't find any even slight improvement (willing to restart along with some serm) or we increase T somehow - i liked humididdly suggestion to increase HcG (even if our LH/FSH seem normal - fsh is the valid one, lh is fluctuating a lot - not very valid) plus using some serm and some AI.

My only problem is that i cannot use SeRMs (nolva and clomid) cause me very bad headaches coz finasteride fucked my whole stress system and adrenals somehow. So i am looking into something lighter, thought of doing some 6-oxo and lately thinking of running some steroid and then trying the 6-oxo.

End point is that our 5-ar II activity is VERY FUKCING LOW, so we need to give some Testo to boost this shit. I have worries about what HcG quantities to use but i guess with proper Aromatase inhibitor (AI) it will help to drive T into DhT.

Other route is gel T rubbed on testicles i did this but makes me very fatigued.

We need to recover as naturally as possible.

Pls guys give us all the help you can, we are very inexperienced and very badly affected people here and need special understanding since our health deteriorated all of a sudden and NO FUCKING DOC does anything or knows anything about it.

I also have slightly high progesterone and high prolactin levels but need to recheck and see if i need dostinex. Lately however i guess my penile sensitivity depressed completely so i suspect either the high E2 feedforwarding prolactin and increasing its effects on my negligible sensitivity or a Direct prolactin effect. Who knows, end point is if i can bring down e2 effectively and bring T up enough to get dht into my system properly.

What about a long run of a good steroid and then a pct?? Wouldn't a steroid bring up 5ar II activity???

Fuck my testicles hurt and shrink day in and out

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

well Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and HMG SHOULD bring back some size the to the testicles. Here is the thing though I wonder how long it will last. I wonder if as soon as your done with those two will the atrophy set back in? Now that you have explained a little more of what finasteride can do to the body I am starting to wonder if it has induced secondary hypogonadism.

Remember the SERM will not help testicular size that much, the use is to restore natural FSH and LH levels. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will mimic LH and actually suppress your natural LH. HMG should mimc both FSH and LH.

Aromasin has a very short half-life and should ALWAYS be dosed ED.

Im wondering if this issue can only properly be corrected with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) ? HUM..................

 

[Colin297]

Sobot, thanks for the note on the testosterone levels, i never realised this.

I do feel the need to differetiate myself from your case somewhat mate. I mean, my test levels are high range whilst yours are mid. And remember that aromasin can increase testosterone up to like 50% so surely that would compensate for what you're talking about. In my case anyway. I still really need Hum's opinion on this, I'm not sure he realised my T levels are already high.

well Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and HMG SHOULD bring back some size the to the testicles. Here is the thing though I wonder how long it will last. I wonder if as soon as your done with those two will the atrophy set back in? Now that you have explained a little more of what finasteride can do to the body I am starting to wonder if it has induced secondary hypogonadism.

Remember the SERM will not help testicular size that much, the use is to restore natural FSH and LH levels. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will mimic LH and actually suppress your natural LH. HMG should mimc both FSH and LH.

Aromasin has a very short half-life and should ALWAYS be dosed ED.

Im wondering if this issue can only properly be corrected with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) ? HUM..................

Alot of people suffering from "Post Finasteride Syndrome" (PFS) do develop secondary hypogonadism. Some guys believe in these more extreme cases people develop androgen resistence for instance. It's complicated.

I'm hoping my case is more simple. My hormone levels seem to indicate so, anyway. My hair is still diffusing into nothing and my beard still grows at the same rate. Sobot, does yours?


Hum, we need you buddy

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

LOL, you say you're not gifted in the communication department but after that wonderful analogy i beg to differ!

My misunderstand lies with the fact that, on paper, my Testosterone levels are high.


Serum Testosterone 32.6 nmol/L (10-34)

They actually read as 33.8 in the previous test. So, im pretty much top of the range.

You think i need to supplement more, though, anyway? Between it being top range and the offset increase ill get from an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), won't that be alot of T...

Sorry to drag this out..

High T levels... in that case slam the letro hard at 2.5mg ED. You are obviously not experiencing HPTA shutdown. Very peculiar, but a good Aromatase inhibitor (AI) should fix the situation.

 

[Sobot]

Anti-estrogens are not the answer. They tend to depress estrogen but also the whole HPTA some how in us. I get more testicular atrophy and exploding pains after incorporating anti-estrogens. Tried arimidex and aromasin and the rate of atrophy was faster. I think it is mandatory we use something to raise testosterone conversion into DHT or/and depress estrogen at same time as raising DHT. Also exogenous DHT supplementation is useless.

Also HcG supplementation fears me because most is converted into estradiol usually, let alone in us who are lacking a functional 5-ar II.

Steroid usage would be thoughtful since steroids tend to push t into dht but who dares do that with already broken testes??

My only concern is whether this serious testicular atrophy can reverse or is it permanent direct estrogen toxicity to the testicles??

I have a question. When AAS users develop painful nipples and their testicles start shrinking how long can someone remain in this situation and hope for a comeback with HcG / SERM? Is it possible to regain some testicle mass after say some months without treatment??

 

[Colin297]

Anti-estrogens are not the answer. They tend to depress estrogen but also the whole HPTA some how in us. I get more testicular atrophy and exploding pains after incorporating anti-estrogens. Tried arimidex and aromasin and the rate of atrophy was faster. I think it is mandatory we use something to raise testosterone conversion into DHT or/and depress estrogen at same time as raising DHT. Also exogenous DHT supplementation is useless.

Also HcG supplementation fears me because most is converted into estradiol usually, let alone in us who are lacking a functional 5-ar II.

Steroid usage would be thoughtful since steroids tend to push t into dht but who dares do that with already broken testes??

My only concern is whether this serious testicular atrophy can reverse or is it permanent direct estrogen toxicity to the testicles??

I have a question. When AAS users develop painful nipples and their testicles start shrinking how long can someone remain in this situation and hope for a comeback with HcG / SERM? Is it possible to regain some testicle mass after say some months without treatment??

Sobot, please don't make sweeping statements like this. Arimidex has cured a few people. Proviron has helped some people also. The whole thing that is wrong with propeciahelp forum is that everyone uses their own experience to define other peoples'. Every case is somewhat different. You have HPTA shutdown, many don't. Humdiddy said himself that in the cae of shutdown you need HcG or something.

You're right though, we need something to promote DHT conversion. I told you before 25g of creatine a day for a week and then 5g daily after that for a few weeks was said to increase DHT levels dramatically. There's a study on it. You should try this. Couldn't do any harm

Ultimately, you need to increase you T levels AND your DHT conversion levels. hcG and proviron and maybe an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as well.

Have you tried consistent levels of high intensity work outs?

 

[Sobot]

Man i swear, its like my testicles have locked in a condition where every single little slight increase in anything that affects Testosterone makes Estradiol superSPIKE. And this in hours depletes my testicles in size even more.

So even taking arimidex or aromasin is a huge toll on the HPTA. Unfortunately aromasin doesn't work alone it affects the whole homeostasis so as long as T dont convert to dht then aromasin will just keep on trying to lower estrogen but the rise in T levels causes more estrogen to be produced.

I want to try HcG. I think however that the best results will be with some steroid that will increase our T to DHT pathway.

Creatine doesn't do anything. This raises the dht levels in healthy people not post finasteride users. I ve tried it but didn't see any results

Plus i see lately that my hormonal issues have immune parameteres too. Its impossible that i have every day inflammation in my testicles, i can't believe estrogen causes this long lasting inflammation. Or is it due to low dht??

WTF.

Colin did you notice any testicular pain/shrinkage??

I m off to sweden in a couple of days to get more tests done.

 

[Colin297]

Man i swear, its like my testicles have locked in a condition where every single little slight increase in anything that affects Testosterone makes Estradiol superSPIKE. And this in hours depletes my testicles in size even more.

So even taking arimidex or aromasin is a huge toll on the HPTA. Unfortunately aromasin doesn't work alone it affects the whole homeostasis so as long as T dont convert to dht then aromasin will just keep on trying to lower estrogen but the rise in T levels causes more estrogen to be produced.

I want to try HcG. I think however that the best results will be with some steroid that will increase our T to DHT pathway.

Creatine doesn't do anything. This raises the dht levels in healthy people not post finasteride users. I ve tried it but didn't see any results

Plus i see lately that my hormonal issues have immune parameteres too. Its impossible that i have every day inflammation in my testicles, i can't believe estrogen causes this long lasting inflammation. Or is it due to low dht??

WTF.

Colin did you notice any testicular pain/shrinkage??

I m off to sweden in a couple of days to get more tests done.

No my LH is decent, testosterone level high and testicles are normal size. I get the odd ache though. Its penile pain/ shinkage that i've experienced.

Let me know how your tests in Sweden go mate.

You have ridiculously low 3-Adiol-G so your T to DHT conversion is in the gutter. You need find something to stimulate this. Your high e2 is simply a natural result of your low DHT levels. An Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is clearly not the answer - you only have high e2 as a result of something else. In milder cases (i hope im in this category) a simple redressing of T/E ratio can give a chance for DHT levels to normalise which ive seen happen in a few cases.

Regarding your quote, I don't know. We'll see if aromasin works for me (assuming my endo lets me take it. I see him on Thursday!!). I've no reason to doubt that my T to DHT conversion is systematically impaired just yet.

My hair and beard etc still grows, by the sounds of what you're saying you're the opposite??

 

[Colin297]

Sobot, i just read from the other forum your DHT levels are in range. Very, very strange.

 

[georgewbush]

from what i understand finasteride interferes with dht conversion to 3-adiol. i dont really know the specifics but from what i remember, taking supplemental hormones will only mask the problem and may not even help or make things worse. waiting for the body to eventually recover seems to be the only remedy that i'm aware of but if anyone knows someone or reads about a study that is to the contrary i would be really interested in reading about it

 

[Colin297]

from what i understand finasteride interferes with dht conversion to 3-adiol. i dont really know the specifics but from what i remember, taking supplemental hormones will only mask the problem and may not even help or make things worse. waiting for the body to eventually recover seems to be the only remedy that i'm aware of but if anyone knows someone or reads about a study that is to the contrary i would be really interested in reading about it

Not exactly. Have a look on propeciahelp.com there is a myriad of articles but you'll probably soon realise how profound some of it is. There are some extremely damaged individuals on the forums.

 

[Colin297]

Mr Humdiddy or Oak

Do you know much about Dermacrine?

Supposedly increases 3-adiol-G

 

[Sobot]

Ok what to do here??

I talked to an anti-aging doc today and he told me to get back to Aromasin 12.5 mg a day to bring down the nipple sensitivity and see in two weeks time if i can stop the continuous TESTICULAR ATROPHY that is killing my psychologically.

Yet, he also mentioned the fact that progesterone is quite high in me 1.4 mg/dl (normai is 0.1-1) and at the level of 1 he sais its also not normal and many people feel weird.

Could the combined high estradiol and high progesterone cause my testicular shrinkage??

How to bring down progesterone?? Would aromasin work or i need a new AI??

Could i take some cabergoline to treat it ?? at what dosages ??

 

[Sobot]

Coliin do you also have high estradiol/high progesterone levels??

 

[Colin297]

Coliin do you also have high estradiol/high progesterone levels??

High e2, yeah. Progesterone, i've no idea.

Will probably be trying aromasin early Jan. Got things lined up with my endo now so we can do weekly bloods etc.

Im also getting my MRI done, costisol levels etc checked. So hopefully we'll get somewhere.

 

[Colin297]

UPDATE

okay guys, still havnt started treated but i should be very very soon. Im awaiting a few blood tests (DHT etc) to come through. I got most through already... here they are:


Testosterone 34.9 nmol/L (10-5 - 30.0) . GOOD
Serum Oestradiol - 173 pmol/L (<150 pmol/L)

FSH - 1.6 (1.5-9.0) A little lower!
LH - 5.3 (1.5 - 8.0)
Prolactin - 229 (<400)
TSH - 1.4 (fine)
Serum androstenedione 5.1 nmol/L (3-15)

17-OH Prog - 7.6 nmol/L (2.0-10.6)
DHEA-S - 7.1umol/L (1.2- 17.3)


SHBG - 53 nmol/L (10-40) [Number there is various ranges for SHBG. Another one is 15-48.5 and 13.3 - 89.5)
Total testosterone - 28.6 nmol/L (anyone got a good range??)

FAI ("Free Androgen Index") = 54.00 (14.8 - 94.8) and (50-140)


Iron levels have normalised!!

Total beta hCG < 1.2 (0.0-5.0)

Morning Cortisol - 179nmol/L (119 - 618)

Vitamin D: 348 nmol/L (50-100 = NORMAL) LOL! So much for the Vit D deficiency thing.



Interpretation?

Testosterone remains promising. FAI is acceptable but this is only due to high Total testosterone levels. SHBG is definately high regardless of which range i look.

High E2 and High SHBG = Estrogenic dominance. No wonder my sexual function has been compromised (im surprised its not worse!!)

Hopefully aromasin can take care of both (Clomid might be needed to help FSH although i reckon the persistent high E2 and SHBG is the reason my FSH has been pushed down and id be hopeful it would normalised over time.) Aromasin decreases E2 and SHBG.

I await my DHT levels. These should be interesting. I still lose my hair but watery semen can indicate DHT deficiency (or just low FSH, perhaps). The high SHBG probably indicates it lower than it was before propecia regardless.

The other thing is cortisol. It's on the low end as was my aldosterone on my previous test. I'm sure people have read my talking about the cortisol production line being downregulated by finasteride. Well, this seems to be the case for me. I might look into preg supplement when i get my preg/prog results.


Overall, im happy with my testosterone levels remaining very good. I'm actually happen SHBG is on the high side - it shows what i need to do to fix this.





What you guys think? Endo is prepared to start aromasin at a low dose but not too fussed on clomid concurrently. I might take it additionally on my on accord, i really need opinions on that??

 

[Colin297]

bump

 

[Colin297]

DEK, Mr Humdiddy, ANYONE?


SHBG???