HPTA Shutdown please help

[Average_Joe]

So I here I am, just got done cutting and I am ready to start bulking for 2011. I have maintained a fair amount of muscle mass and have lost about 13% bodyfat so I'm feeling pretty good. So good that I decide this year I will begin my first cycle of AAS.

Stats:

Age - 23
Height - 5'8.5"
Weight - 174 lbs.
Bodyfat - 15%

I had chosen Test E for my first cycle and had post cycle therapy (pct) and everything planned Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout cycle, Clomid+Nolva for post cycle therapy (pct) with Arimidex on hand. So I go to get my bloodwork done so I can get baselines established and low and behold my Testosterone comes out to 133 ng/dl!! I don't have any Testicular Shrinkage but I have noticed over the past couple of months that my erections have been weeker and my libido quite lowered.

I immediately called and set up an appointment with my doctor because i was so shocked by the results of the test. I then started wondering what could've caused this at my young age and then it hit me. In October last year on the advice of a dumb friend I stupidly did a 4 week cycle of Superdrol at 30mg ed with post cycle therapy (pct) as my "friend" advised me post cycle therapy (pct) wasn't needed for PH and I stupidly complied. After doing a lil research on this site and others I have come to the conclusion that my HPTA must be shutdown due to the Superdrol.

My questions are:

Is my doctor most likely going to first opt for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) even at my young age?

Do you think testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is avoidable? Through use of HCG,Clomiphene, and Tamoxifen combo perhaps?

What would you do? Honestly.


Sorry for the long post I am just VERY disappointed by this as low T is not good for building muscle mass. It's just wierd to me because I haven't really had trouble maintaining gains and I don't have any Testicular Atrophy.

 

[hatefulONE]

Testicular atrophy is often a very poor way to determine shutdown, the leydig cells make up around 10% of the total testicular mass, and when shutdown occurs they are what shrinks typically. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in high doses, around 2500iu or so weekly may give you a jump start, or doing an extensive post cycle therapy (pct) type cycle, I would add a serm of your choice as well as some resveratrol, personally I like sustain alpha by primordial performance. Do not take Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and a serm at the same time, it would be counterproductive and cause more harm than any proposed brologic good. There are lots of good articles and threads on here, just search Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and you should find a plan that works well for you. Good luck bro.

 

[Average_Joe]

Thanks for the quick reply! So I may not already be testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) bound?

Ok I will try Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and SERMs but not at the same time. From what I gather a proper course might look something like this perhaps?

HCG - 1000 i.u. EOD Weeks 1-2
Tamoxifen - 40/40/20/20 Weeks 3-6
Clomiphene - 100/100/50/50 Weeks 3-6

And hope for the best?

I am sorry for my lack of knowledge it's what got me here in the forst place. But i do want to learn and understand so if someone could critique these doses I would very grateful.

 

[hatefulONE]

With that high a dose I would do every 4 days or so with the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), try it for 4 weeks, then do a post cycle therapy (pct), not really sure about doses of nolva and clomid for this kind of application, but those are a good starting point, maximize your diet as well with a proper balance of fats, lift heavy and hard, get plenty of rest. Hopefully all of those will help.

 

[Average_Joe]

Ok every 4 days sounds a lot better. lol Thanks again for the response. I've poked around a lot more and ran across this post stating:

hCG for post cycle therapy (pct) involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA
functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to
be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind.
Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.
After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level
is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to 'push' the testicles with
hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate
LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed
agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-
pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative
feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis.

Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)
Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen,
will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the
testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.
In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a
maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In post cycle therapy (pct) hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the
same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200).
Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti
estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase
endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary.
In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone
production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of
antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is
a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells
to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors,
tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The
estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of
estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

To me it sounds pretty legitimate but by that logic the post cycle therapy (pct) protocol would look something like this:

HCG - 1000iu every 4 days weeks 1-2
Clomiphene - 100/100/50/50 weeks 1-4
Tamoxifen - 40/40/40/40/20/20 weeks 1-6

As the author of the post above suggests you run the Clomiphene and Tamoxifen along with the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). The idea being that the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will mimic LH to shock the Leydig cells to release testosterone meanwhile the Clomiphene will actually cause the hypothalamus to release more gnrh to the pituitary thus releasing more endo LH and FSH to the testes. However Clomiphene will also raise levels of estrogen and that is why the author suggests the use of Tamoxifen throughout as well. Again all of it seems sound to me, however I am still learning and it contradicts the opinions I've gotten so far.

Anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

 

[557mustang]

Complete you pct then get more bloodwork. You're really gonna have to shock your system to get back to normal and I'm probably gonna get flamed for suggesting such a strong post cycle therapy (pct), but this is my advice...
500iu's Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) twice a week for two weeks
exemestane 25mg's week 1-6
nolva 20mg's week 1-6
clomid 50mg's week 3-6
And the reason for the exemestane and nolva throughout is because the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) can cause a sharp rise in estrogen...

 

[blazeftp]

Isn't Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) a suppressant to the HPTA system ?

Did you get your blood work after you PCT ?

 

[Kane_Red_Machine]

i doubt than hight dose will make better effect.

average doses with longer post cycle therapy (pct) protocole is reasonable.

anyway, if your side effect are too prononced, let a doc to manage the cycle therapy.

 

[Average_Joe]

In answer to our question Blaze, and I may be wrong, it's my understanding that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is only HPTA suppressive if ran for too long at too high of a dose and that it's function as far as BBing and AAS are concerned is to shock the Leydig cells into releasing Testosterone. Also yes I did have my blood tested after the Superdrol cycle but I was dumb and did no post cycle therapy (pct). I did that cycle back in October and got a test then that put my Testosterone at 295 ng/dl. Now 3 months later here in January I get another blood test and find everything back to normal except for my Testosterone, FSH, and LH. They now look like this:

Testosterone = 133 ng/dl Normal = 280-1000 ng/dl
LH = 1.9 miu/ml Normal = 1.7-8.6
FSH = 2.5 miu/ml Normal = 1.9-12.4

So Kane, what would be a more average dose of HCG? Is 500iu twice a week not good?

So far it's looking like my post cycle therapy (pct) will be:

HCG - 500iu twice a week Weeks 1-2
Nolva - 20mg ED Weeks 1-6
Clomid - 100mg ED Weeks 1-4

The clomiphene in conjunction with the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) should help my body produce endogeneous GnRH right? which will in turn lead to more endo LH and FSH from the pituitary right? Then the Tamoxifen is to stave off the effects of the increased estrogen that will also occur as a result.

I do appreciate everyone who has responded so far and I do hope to get a few more opinions before I see the doc tomorrow. Anyone else wanna chime in??

I am really hoping he doesn't try and force me into testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) at this age. I really hopr there are other options.

 

[hatefulONE]

I wouldn't do Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at the same time as a serm, you may want to look into opiod modulation of your pituitary, could be an issue as well.

 

[RJ]

In answer to our question Blaze, and I may be wrong, it's my understanding that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is only HPTA suppressive if ran for too long at too high of a dose

yes, you are wrong. Do the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) first in blasts doses for a week or two, then 4 weeks of the SERM. I prefer Tore Citrate. Clomid and Nolva are ancient remedies IMO(yes they will still work).

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

have you cycled before? just wondering why your T is so low.................there has to be an outside cause...........or they just never worked well at all.

there are lots of things out there that lower your testosterone, pills, alcohol just to mention a few.

 

[Average_Joe]

Thanks for the insight RJH90210 I figured someone would correct me if I was wrong. I do appreciate it as I'm still trying to learn all I can.

THE-DET-OAK thanks for your response as well. In answer to your question the only "cycle" I have ever done was a Superdrol cycle in October of 2010. I was dumb and listening to broscience and did not do any post cycle therapy (pct) afterward because I was told by all the self proclaimed "guru"s in my area that PH's are shit (which I now agree with) and that they aren't powerful enough to warrant post cycle therapy (pct) (which I certainly DO NOT agree with). Also I don't drink but i do smoke no more than one joint each night. It helps me fall asleep.

So just so I get this straight the protocol I should follow here to shock those Testes back would be:

HCG - 500iu twice a week Weeks 1-2
Clomiphene - 100/100/50/50 Weeks 3-6
Tamoxifen - 40/40/20/20 Weeks 3-6

Correct? Then hopefully a functioning HPTA.

Another question, say I went with Toremifen instead of the other SERMs. Would both the clomiphene and tamoxifen be taken out of the equation? And at what doses should I run the toremifen should i choose to use it?

Again thanks for all of your help I'm feeling a little less dismal and a bit more optimistic thanks to the help I'm getting from you guys.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

well thats what happened bro, superdrol fucked up your balls.

Make sure you get them up to normal and keep them normal for a good 3 months before cycling again.

here is EXACTLY what you should do.

get 5000 IU's of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and run 500iu's of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every day til its gone. then wait 4 days and use a combo of nolva and clomid. or nolva and toremifene.

clomid 50/50/50/50
nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20

once the SERM's are finished wait 3 weeks and do bloods again.

 

[Average_Joe]

Thanks THE-DET-OAK I will follow that protocol to a T. (no pun intended lol)

One last question though and I hate to make it seem like I need my hand held through all of this but i do appreciate you guys doing it anyway. If I run the Toremifen instead of the clomiphene what are the toremifen doses supposed to look like?

Thanks for ALL of your help so far.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

RJ or someone who has used it will help with torem dose, If im not mistaken though its like 70mg ED

 

[RJ]

RJ or someone who has used it will help with torem dose, If im not mistaken though its like 70mg ED

half that is fine. 30-60 seems to be the money.

 

[Average_Joe]

Thank You RJH90210 and THE-DET-OAK and everyone that responded! You guys truly have been such a great help.

Toremifen at 30-60mg for the same length as the clomiphene would've been? About 4 weeks?

Again thanks. Just keep passin me the knowledge and maybe before too long I too will be able to help those in need!

 

[RJ]

Thank You RJH90210 and THE-DET-OAK and everyone that responded! You guys truly have been such a great help.

Toremifen at 30-60mg for the same length as the clomiphene would've been? About 4 weeks?

Again thanks. Just keep passin me the knowledge and maybe before too long I too will be able to help those in need!

yes. 4 weeks max.

 

[Average_Joe]

Understood! Thanks to everyone that gave their inout it is much appreciated. I'm going to the doctor today and am going to see if I can't talk my way into getting prescribed Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Whether I can or can't I am trying the treatments we have discussed above before I let him throw my ass on TRT.

For now as far as the forum is concerned I think I'm going to consider this resolved. Again I appreciate all the help guys thanks.