I Hate To Say This, BUT...

[randy8411]

Nothing works 100% of the time for everyone - whether it be supplements, drugs, or acupuncture etc.

I received acupuncture for TMJ by several different herbalists and chiropractors, but they didn't do nothing for lessening the pain or loosening up the facial muscles.

There have been others who have had severe wasting of the muscles and/or chronic pain do to injuries [falls, mva's] and have made much progress, as would they with the state of the art treatment and/or drugs.

So to make statements about v-B12, acupuncture or/and creatine etc. such as --- that it is all a hype or does not work are misleading, incorrect, and outrageous generalizations.

Therefore, IMO one does not need science to prove that one product over another works as it is intended to be or hyped to be, because even those studies have serious limitations and drawbacks.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Nothing works 100% of the time for everyone - whether it be supplements, drugs, or acupuncture etc.

I received acupuncture for TMJ by several different herbalists and chiropractors, but they didn't do nothing for lessening the pain or loosening up the facial muscles.

There have been others who have had severe wasting of the muscles and/or chronic pain do to injuries [falls, mva's] and have made much progress, as would they with the state of the art treatment and/or drugs.

So to make statements about v-B12, acupuncture or/and creatine etc. such as --- that it is all a hype or does not work are misleading, incorrect, and outrageous generalizations.

Therefore, IMO one does not need science to prove that one product over another works as it is intended to be or hyped to be, because even those studies have serious limitations and drawbacks.

One more time...

I never said that B12, creatine or ART didn't work.

I said..that glucosamine did nothing for me after extensive expermentation with it.

I said... ARP has limited applications.

I said...VB12 works no differently than oral B12. and

I said... accupunture may be good for pain but I haven't seen a single case of it curing anything and some practicioners should be apprached with extrem caution because they are not medically trained.

But, people like to read into things, ya know? They also like to draw conclusions, misquote , and then make generalizations about waht was said based on their own misunderstanding. I was just hoping my experience might be food for thought. Instead, it becomes a witch hunt. (sigh) I tried to erase this entire thread but it wouldn't go through.

 

[Victorian guy]

First of all, you don't need the sarcasm. I hear you.

Yes, accupuncture has been around for thousands of years. So has voodoo. It's longevity means nothing.


.

Once again, Nelson telling people how to behave,....not to be sarcastic,when he himself is sarcastic concerning any disagreement with him over his 'expert' views.

Yo. Nelson, where were you published? You mentioned in a post in this thread being published extensively....what magazines,journals, etc?

 

[Flex it]

Never said it didn't -- just that the applications are limited.


iron: True, not all oral B12 is absorbed, but considering an average multi vit has over a thousand times the recommended daily allowence, I think you're covered.

We all know that a bodybuilder needs at least 1000x the RDA, so why would you want to take B12 orally so that your back down to about what the RDA says?? That's why if you inject B12, you know what your body is absorbing.... you take the guess work out of it.

I know that it has helped me. IMHO.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Once again, Nelson telling people how to behave,....not to be sarcastic,when he himself is sarcastic concerning any disagreement with him over his 'expert' views.

Yo. Nelson, where were you published? You mentioned in a post in this thread being published extensively....what magazines,journals, etc?

If I tell you, do you promise to go away?

Yo mods, I have yet to see this guy post anything other than flames. When is enough enough?

Flex it. A bodybuilder needs 1000X's the RDA od vitamon B12? No offense bro but you're hilareously misinformed. MAYBE a bodybuilder will use 2X's the RDA of most other people and that's sretching it. And as mentioned, a multi has oover 1000X's the RDA of B12. There is absoutely no way you can have a deficiency.

 

[Flex it]

If I tell you, do you promise to go away?

Yo mods, I have yet to see this guy post anything other than flames. When is enough enough?

Flex it. A bodybuilder needs 1000X's the RDA od vitamon B12? No offense bro but you're hilareously misinformed. MAYBE a bodybuilder will use 2X's the RDA of most other people and that's sretching it. And as mentioned, a multi has oover 1000X's the RDA of B12. There is absoutely no way you can have a deficiency.

Then why was Injectible B12 ever made if you can't have a difficiency?

I believe the RDA of vitamin C is like 60mg/day. So your saying all a bber needs is 120mg/day. I don't think so bro. If that's what you truly believe, then god bless you. I can tell you that everybody's body is different and requires different amounts of nutrients depending on how their diet is. Not everybody eats like a champion every day, although it would be nice.

Oh, one more thing... There's enough people arguing with you on this board, and I'm not gonna be one of them, so forget about it bro!

 

[kube]

What about people in the pockets of the supplement and herbal remedy biz!?!

the pharm companies are now buying up all of the health food industry and fucking up all the natural products on the shelves. ive definitely noticed a big difference in quality over the past few years.

 

[kube]

hey nelson, you get asked for your credentials and you get evasive and run to the establishment pointing the finger. i didnt see him flaming you. he asked a simple question. stop crying over everything bro. what fuckin magazines and journals HAVE you been published in? simple question. answer it. and if you answer it, no i dont promise to go away. this is a discussion board. you want to rant over your petty accomplishments, back it up and tell victiorian guy where you were published and when. alot of us would like to know.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Then why was Injectible B12 ever made if you can't have a difficiency?

I believe the RDA of vitamin C is like 60mg/day. So your saying all a bber needs is 120mg/day. I don't think so bro. If that's what you truly believe, then god bless you. I can tell you that everybody's body is different and requires different amounts of nutrients depending on how their diet is. Not everybody eats like a champion every day, although it would be nice.

Oh, one more thing... There's enough people arguing with you on this board, and I'm not gonna be one of them, so forget about it bro!

Now you're cahnging your story. You said a bodybuilder needs 1000X's more. That is wrong.

B12 was invented in cases of severe anemia, back in the 30's when malnutrition was more common. Today, it's hardly used, if at all.

I'm used to people arguing with me. People argue with what they don't like or don't undersatnd. But I don't care what people don't like or don't undersatnd. I tell it like I see it .


Kube: I have yet to see a post by VG that contributed ANYTHING to the subject.

I hate stating my credentials. You know why? Because I've done it a hundred times already and people will keep on asking or they won't believe it or they'll break my balls for tooting my own horn. I can't win. Don't believe me if you don't want to. The fact that anyone would think I'm here to PRETEND I'm a published writer is actually pretty pathetic. "Gee wilickers, you ain't really spoke to Craig Titus! Sheeeeit, he's a famous person! "

 

[Mr. Nobody]

Why not expand and everybody post their success stories and dissapointments with popular ergogenic supps:
Disclaimer: Those are personal experiences of Mr. N. and are based on experimentations only without benefit of supporting studies

To answer the ones mentioned:

R-ALA:
No doubt keeps insulin levels normal when using high carbs. Great for low insulin diets. Exception: I like insulin spike post W/O and avoid R-ALA at that time only.
Rating: 10

B-12 shots:
Works to increase endurance for a couple of weeks then as saturation is reached quits working. Oral B-12 does nothing for me. I cycle it 4 weeks on at 1,000mcg ed then 4-8 weeks off.
PS: I never get the increase in appetite either
Rating 8 for endurance and better workouts

G/C:
I agree with NM. I got nothing out of it and used many brands. Also used MSM. I prefer ice, capsicum lotions and good old ibuprofen when required (oh, and dont give me that shit about reduced protein synthesis, cause keeping inflamation in check is more important) Rating:0 for joint health

Now lets add these for purpose of expanded discussion, if I may:

M1T:
I am totally blown anawy that this is legal. Feels and acts similar to dbol or anadrol w/o the increase in hunger. Its not a PH but a real steroid IMHO, so be aware and use proper caution (estrogen control) as well as PCT.
I give it a 9 for weight/strength increase and 5 for gains keeping.

Creatine:
Using the micronized type has made all the difference. Works great to increase pump and muscle endurance but not strength for me.
Rating: 8 for workout aid

Glutamine:
Only the special peptides from omega (forgot the formula) worked for me. Other formulas showed no benefits. Omega's product gave me slight increase in pump, but more importantly less soreness speak quicker recovery.

NO2
Sucked ass, plain and simple. BAC's arginine powder which tastes like enema back wash (no I have not tried it, lol) did better in the pump department.
Rating: 0 for pump increase

DIM:
Been using that for a while now in conjunction with arimidex to maintain healthy estrogen. Jury is still out, but the sides are similar to clomid. So maybe the benefits are similar as well.

I am leaving out other popular diet aides on purpose (except the ones mentioned originally) to keep post shorter and more focused on ergogenic aids. But Ephedrine HCL needs to be mentioned as a noteworthy CNS stimulant for more intense W/O. The only propblem for me now is the negative effect on my prostate. It makes it swell up too much and therefore is used very sparingly.

Anybody please add other ergogenic supps.....I had tried so many that its hard to remember all the failures, lol

 

[dtsgt]

i agree with what you say about the glucosamine chondriotin, the absorbtion rate on it is only 1%. The are plenty of better things out there. try msm with glucosamine or just glucosamine sulfate.

 

[jcp2]

r-ala is something that appears to be more noticeable in people with insulin resistance. At least from what i have read, and from the people i have read give their testimonials here and especially at elite. I am not an expert and i read alot of what ulter and macro and nelson have to say, but i would think r-ala would be more beneficial in softer type of people. And i thought r-ala didn't lower insulin, but just made insulin do its job better thus making the pancreas release less.

One thing i have learned from alternative medicine or at least the chiropracter, they are in it to make money and will twist things more than any of the supp guys on this board. I have been going to the chiro for a few months and it has helped my shoulder tremendously as i must have been severly twisted. But they make it seem if i don't have chiropractic care for the rest of my life i am going to die an early death because my heart lungs and brain may all stop from pinched nerves in my back. As far as accupuncture goes, i will stay away, i have never heard any glowing stories about them. Another thing, and this has always stuck on my mind, doctors have to be extremely intelligient to get into med school, the mcat is a seriously difficult test. What has bothered me is to get into chiropractic or accupuntcutre you don't have to be all that bright. Anyone can basically go to these schools it seems with a little work, some prereqs and decent grades.

 

[Victorian guy]

Kube: I have yet to see a post by VG that contributed ANYTHING to the subject.

I hate stating my credentials. You know why? Because I've done it a hundred times already and people will keep on asking or they won't believe it or they'll break my balls for tooting my own horn. I can't win. Don't believe me if you don't want to. The fact that anyone would think I'm here to PRETEND I'm a published writer is actually pretty pathetic. "Gee wilickers, you ain't really spoke to Craig Titus! Sheeeeit, he's a famous person! "

When you come to a board, claiming to be the insider, expert, buddy of pros etc, I think you ought to prove your claims. That's all.

I was just wondering, Nelson. I mean, you have claimed to 'know the pros', to be 'a true industry insider'...and that supplement companies have been feeding us nothing but 'lies. You say that on your website.
Seems you keep mentioning Titus...Nelson, I thought you knew the PROS...I mean, if you did speak to Titus only...and likely he fed you BS, seeing as how he has prior convictions for gear...that isnt 'knowing the pros' and being an 'insider.' Lots of guys on this board have chatted with pros.

If I claim to know the pros, and have worked with 'hundreds' of people, been published, etc, etc., what is wrong if someone simply asks me TO PROVE MY CLAIMS.
Nor do you care to point out that you are not really a bodybuilder, more of a fitness guy who has never bulked, never done anything other than a few one month joke cycles....

You won't back your claims. You even backed down on the 1000 bet you made me. You say you dont need to prove yourself.
Therefore, forgive me if I take it your claims are fraudulent, that you make yourself out to be a guru, so that you can make money off this board's members by getting them to buy your online book and the supplements you back.

That is all. You whine to mods, at least one of whom has been deleting my posts.
Prove your claims. I'm not the only one asking you to do this.
See Nelson's website www.nelsonmontana.com.

Below are some quotes, cut and pasted from Nelson's site. Note the claims that often come with shady promotions/diets/etc..."I eat whatever the hell I want..". That claim is meant to rope in the dopes who really think that there is some secret way to look good while eating Cheetos all the time.....blatantly false and misleading.
Note his minimal gear experience. Wouldnt know that from the way he talks on this board. In fact, with that little experience under his belt, he shouldnt be saying a thing about steroids.
Also- the last one is a classic hook - 'order now and get 150 dollars worth of reports for FREE'....so these 'reports' were valued by, perhaps, an accountant?? I have speck of dust for sale- order it now and get 100 dollars worth of dust specks thrown in for FREE.

Here's the quote:


Although I'd been a life long natural bodybuilder, I found the topic of steroids fascinating and had an insatiable desire to learn more about them. Once again, it seemed that what the "gurus" were recommending was way off-base.

Finally, at age 43, I chose to delve into the dark world of performance enhancing drugs. (I did a two week cycle of wussy Primobolan tablets, put on 8 pounds, and kept it. Woohoo!)

Six weeks before the show I started my BIG cycle -- two D-bol a day for two weeks and two 100 mg shots of Deca. (I'll wait until you stop laughing) EVERYONE assured me that a steroid does that low would do absolutely nothing. Nevertheless, I shot up to 200 lbs. with 6% bodyfat.

This is me today at age 48. The picture on the home page is also a recent shot. I maintain a comfortable 185 lb. bodyweight with 10% bodyfat. (Not bad for an old geezer) I train three times a week for 30 minutes per session, I wouldn't dare step on a treadmill or ride a stationary bike. And I eat whatever the hell I want.

I manage to maintain my shape because I know the answers. LIfe is good. If you want to get a better look, click on the photo again...

Ready to get a copy and take advantage of our seasonal special?

Order the Instant eBook Download before Monday, June 21, 2004 -- pay no shipping -- and get 8 FREE bonus reports valued at over $150!


Or order the paperback:

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Now jcp and Mr. Nobody made good posts. That's what this should be about. One person throws some thoughts out. Another goes hmmm, I agree with this, disagree with that, this is my experience, and we have a discussion.

The only point I would address with Mr. Nobody is the saturation effect of injectable B12. Since B12 is water soluable, it will be excreted within 48 hours. The means of administartion doesn't matter. B12 is B12. The injectable WILL SATURATE FASTER. In other words if someone suffers from pernicious anemia a doctor would want them to get B12 as quickly as possible and then the injection is prefered. But if you eat healthy and take vitamins there's no reason to get B12 any faster since you're already saturated.

And jcp makes a good point about chiropractors. I think they're a godsend for certain conditions. They do what no one else can . But some of them would want you to get daily adjustments and that's just stupid. That's like getting a piano tuned every day. It isn't necessary. As far as accupuncturists and massage therapists, yeah, how hard is it to become a "doctor" that requires a few months of training and no study of medicine?

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Holy fuck, VG, get a fucking life, will ya?!

 

[Mr. Nobody]

If I remember correctly, B-12 even though its water soluble, can be stored in the liver. What I meant was when the liver is saturated with B-12, it gets pissed out and the ergogenic effects vane. The 3-4 week span has been my experience. Also, B-12 does not absorb well through the intestines, hence the advantage of parental administration.

 

[ulter]

Nelson may not know why he's right about B12, and from his posts it's obvious, but he may be on to something. There needs to be more research but preliminary finds show oral is as effective as IM administration of B12.

Score one for Nelson.



Clin Ther. 2003 Dec;25(12):3124-34.


Oral versus intramuscular cobalamin treatment in megaloblastic anemia: a single-center, prospective, randomized, open-label study.

Bolaman Z, Kadikoylu G, Yukselen V, Yavasoglu I, Barutca S, Senturk T.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Hematology, Adnan Menderes University Medical School, Aydin, Turkey. zahitb@yahoo.com

BACKGROUND: Cobalamin (vitamin B12) deficiency, the most common cause of megaloblastic anemia, is treated with intramuscular (IM) cobalamin. It has been suggested by some investigators that oral (p.o.) cobalamin treatment may be as effective in the treatment of this condition, with the advantages of ease of administration and lower cost. OBJECTIVE: This study assessed the effects and cost of p.o. versus i.m. cobalamin treatment in patients with megaloblastic anemia due to cobalamin deficiency. METHODS: This was a 90-day, prospective, randomized, open-label study conducted at the Division of Hematology, Department of Internal Medicine, Adnan Menderes University Research and Practice Hospital (Aydin, Turkey). Patients aged > or =16 years with megaloblastic anemia due to cobalamin deficiency were randomized to receive 1000-microg cobalamin p.o. once daily for 10 days (p.o. group) or 1000-microg cobalamin i.m. once daily for 10 days (i.m. group). After 10 days, both treatments were administered once a week for 4 weeks, and after that, once a month for life. Patients were assessed for the presence of reticulocytosis between treatment days 5 and 10 until it was detected. Therapeutic effectiveness was assessed by measuring hematologic parameters on days 0, 10, 30, and 90 and serum vitamin B12 concentration on days 0 and 90. The Mini-Mental State Examination was used before and after the B12 therapy for cognitive function assessment and 125-Hz diapozone was used for vibration threshold testing. Neurologic sensory assessment, including soft-touch and pinprick examinations, was used to identify neuropathy at baseline and study end. Tolerability was assessed using laboratory tests and patient interview. Cost was assessed using the cost of the study drug and of the injection. RESULTS: Sixty patients completed the study 26 in the p.o. group (16 men, 10 women; mean [SD] age, 60 [15] years) and 34 in the i.m. group (17 men, 17 women; mean [SD] age, 64 [10] years). Reticulocytosis was observed in all patients. In the p.o. group, at days 30 and 90, all hematologic parameters changed significantly versus day 0 (mean hemoglobin levels increased [both P<0.001]; mean corpuscular volume decreased [both P<0.001]; mean white blood cell count increased [day 30, P<0.01; day 90, P<0.001]; and mean platelet count increased [both P<0.001]). The mean serum vitamin B12 concentration increased significantly from day 0 to 90 (P<0.001). These hematologic parameters and the recovery patterns were similar between the 2 groups. Neurologic findings included sensitive peripheral neuropathy in 9 patients (15.0%), alteration of cognitive function (loss of memory, impaired concentration) in 7 patients (11.7%), and loss of sense of vibration in 5 patients (8.3%). Neurologic improvement was detected in 7 of 9 patients (77.8%) in the p.o. group and 9 of 12 patients (75.0%) in the i.m. group at day 30. CONCLUSIONS: In this study of patients with megaloblastic anemia due to cobalamin deficiency, p.o. cobalamin treatment was as effective as i.m. cobalamin treatment. P.o. treatment also was better tolerated and less expensive compared with IM treatment. However, because of the small sample size and the short term of this study, further long-term studies are needed to determine the efficacy of p.o. cobalamin treatment.


See Nelson, that's how you do it.

 

[DADAWG]

ive always heard that oral b12 did not absorb as well , ive been using some of the sublingul versions as part of my basic vitamin regimen .

 

[kbrkbr]

Holy fuck, VG, get a fucking life, will ya?!

That is, without a doubt, the single most pathetic response to a well-considered post I have ever chanced upon.

Nelson, I lost all respect for you ages ago, but now I'm actually starting to pity you.

Truly sad. You coulda' been a contender.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Nelson may not know why he's right about B12, and from his posts it's obvious, but he may be on to something. There needs to be more research but preliminary finds show oral is as effective as IM administration of B12.

Score one for Nelson.



Clin Ther. 2003 Dec;25(12):3124-34.


Oral versus intramuscular cobalamin treatment in megaloblastic anemia: a single-center, prospective, randomized, open-label study.

Bolaman Z, Kadikoylu G, Yukselen V, Yavasoglu I, Barutca S, Senturk T.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Hematology, Adnan Menderes University Medical School, Aydin, Turkey. zahitb@yahoo.com

BACKGROUND: Cobalamin (vitamin B12) deficiency, the most common cause of megaloblastic anemia, is treated with intramuscular (IM) cobalamin. It has been suggested by some investigators that oral (p.o.) cobalamin treatment may be as effective in the treatment of this condition, with the advantages of ease of administration and lower cost. OBJECTIVE: This study assessed the effects and cost of p.o. versus i.m. cobalamin treatment in patients with megaloblastic anemia due to cobalamin deficiency. METHODS: This was a 90-day, prospective, randomized, open-label study conducted at the Division of Hematology, Department of Internal Medicine, Adnan Menderes University Research and Practice Hospital (Aydin, Turkey). Patients aged > or =16 years with megaloblastic anemia due to cobalamin deficiency were randomized to receive 1000-microg cobalamin p.o. once daily for 10 days (p.o. group) or 1000-microg cobalamin i.m. once daily for 10 days (i.m. group). After 10 days, both treatments were administered once a week for 4 weeks, and after that, once a month for life. Patients were assessed for the presence of reticulocytosis between treatment days 5 and 10 until it was detected. Therapeutic effectiveness was assessed by measuring hematologic parameters on days 0, 10, 30, and 90 and serum vitamin B12 concentration on days 0 and 90. The Mini-Mental State Examination was used before and after the B12 therapy for cognitive function assessment and 125-Hz diapozone was used for vibration threshold testing. Neurologic sensory assessment, including soft-touch and pinprick examinations, was used to identify neuropathy at baseline and study end. Tolerability was assessed using laboratory tests and patient interview. Cost was assessed using the cost of the study drug and of the injection. RESULTS: Sixty patients completed the study 26 in the p.o. group (16 men, 10 women; mean [SD] age, 60 [15] years) and 34 in the i.m. group (17 men, 17 women; mean [SD] age, 64 [10] years). Reticulocytosis was observed in all patients. In the p.o. group, at days 30 and 90, all hematologic parameters changed significantly versus day 0 (mean hemoglobin levels increased [both P<0.001]; mean corpuscular volume decreased [both P<0.001]; mean white blood cell count increased [day 30, P<0.01; day 90, P<0.001]; and mean platelet count increased [both P<0.001]). The mean serum vitamin B12 concentration increased significantly from day 0 to 90 (P<0.001). These hematologic parameters and the recovery patterns were similar between the 2 groups. Neurologic findings included sensitive peripheral neuropathy in 9 patients (15.0%), alteration of cognitive function (loss of memory, impaired concentration) in 7 patients (11.7%), and loss of sense of vibration in 5 patients (8.3%). Neurologic improvement was detected in 7 of 9 patients (77.8%) in the p.o. group and 9 of 12 patients (75.0%) in the i.m. group at day 30. CONCLUSIONS: In this study of patients with megaloblastic anemia due to cobalamin deficiency, p.o. cobalamin treatment was as effective as i.m. cobalamin treatment. P.o. treatment also was better tolerated and less expensive compared with IM treatment. However, because of the small sample size and the short term of this study, further long-term studies are needed to determine the efficacy of p.o. cobalamin treatment.


See Nelson, that's how you do it.

Well, that's the way YOU do it. I prefer to use a logical discussion to make my point instead of cutting and pasting existing studies. But, either way, I'm right -- so what's the difference?

I know your post was a left handed compliment, but I appreciate the effort anyway.