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is ATG squats necessary for strength?
- Thread starter spiderpig
- Start date
Currently been doing 5x5 squats, I do go parallel and i'm gaining good! 15kg up in about 2 months as from today, but I see the stronglifts guy on youtube and he does go ATG, but is it absolutely necessary?
The strong lifts guy really does not know as much as he thinks and he basically piggy backed off Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength. The only requirement is to get to parallel not ass to ground. The lower you go below parallel the more hamstring and glute activation there is but that's why you do deadlifts too lol. I personally go ATG as its what I've been doing for years and accustomed to. It wears in you more than parallel squats and you need very good hamstring flexibility to pull it off without caving your lower back. If your form is good on parallel squats I would stick with them. Here's a good picture showing the differences between front squat, high bar squat, and low squat. Notice how the top of the patella and midpoint of the hips form a horizontal plane parallel to the ground, that's squatting to parallel not just going by your thighs.
View attachment 551244
The strong lifts guy really does not know as much as he thinks and he basically piggy backed off Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength. The only requirement is to get to parallel not ass to ground. The lower you go below parallel the more hamstring and glute activation there is but that's why you do deadlifts too lol. I personally go ATG as its what I've been doing for years and accustomed to. It wears in you more than parallel squats and you need very good hamstring flexibility to pull it off without caving your lower back. If your form is good on parallel squats I would stick with them. Here's a good picture showing the differences between front squat, high bar squat, and low squat. Notice how the top of the patella and midpoint of the hips form a horizontal plane parallel to the ground, that's squatting to parallel not just going by your thighs.
View attachment 551244
Good information mate, Thanks, I have done a few ATG squats but I don't really like them to be honest, My head nearly explodes when i go heavy lol! BTW the last pic (to the right) is that even safe? it looks like horrible form?
Good information mate, Thanks, I have done a few ATG squats but I don't really like them to be honest, My head nearly explodes when i go heavy lol! BTW the last pic (to the right) is that even safe? it looks like horrible form?
I love ATG Squats by they do take a toll on you moreso than parallel squats. Your quads are basically taken out of the movement on the way up UNTIL you get back to parallel so it's all glutes and Hams until the quads take over. Yes the pic to the right is perfect form: the spine is in an anotmically correct position, maintaining lower back arch, proper depth; the bar placement and travel remains over mid foot, head placement is forward and down. Why would you think it's bad form?
I love ATG Squats by they do take a toll on you moreso than parallel squats. Your quads are basically taken out of the movement on the way up UNTIL you get back to parallel so it's all glutes and Hams until the quads take over. Yes the pic to the right is perfect form: the spine is in an anotmically correct position, maintaining lower back arch, proper depth; the bar placement and travel remains over mid foot, head placement is forward and down. Why would you think it's bad form?
Still a noob m8, I'm here to learn lol, The bar looks very low down on the back. looks painful for some reason lol
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Still a noob m8, I'm here to learn lol, The bar looks very low down on the back. looks painful for some reason lol
It's the difference between high-bar squat and low-bar squat. The low bar squat puts less torque on your back since the lever-arm is shorter from the bad position to the point of axis/rotation. If you don't have the flexibility to get it that low, high bar squats work just as well
Still a noob m8, I'm here to learn lol, The bar looks very low down on the back. looks painful for some reason lol
It's the difference between high-bar squat and low-bar squat. The low bar squat puts less torque on your back since the lever-arm is shorter from the bar position to the point of axis/rotation. If you don't have the flexibility to get it that low, high bar squats work just as well
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It's the difference between high-bar squat and low-bar squat. The low bar squat puts less torque on your back since the lever-arm is shorter from the bar position to the point of axis/rotation. If you don't have the flexibility to get it that low, high bar squats work just as well
Why do sometimes when i squat i feel as im leaning forward? it's weird, I have once or twice nearly fell forward lmao, as i said I'm very new to squats really only been at them for a few months.
Why do sometimes when i squat i feel as im leaning forward? it's weird, I have once or twice nearly fell forward lmao, as i said I'm very new to squats really only been at them for a few months.
Two reasons: one you're probably doing high bar squats with the bar just below your neck line so therefore the torque on your lower back is greater than if you do low bar style squats and secondly you have to consciously think of chest up the whole range of motion. The second you let your chest cave you have lost rigidity in your low back. That coupled with high bar squats will make you lean forward and almost tip over. That's part of the reason the Valsalva maneuver is so important. Not only does it help with core stability, strength, and prevention of injury but it also aids in keeping your chest up.
My recommendation to you would be to drop the weight anywhere from 10-20% maybe more and work on perfecting your form. If you keep adding weight with subpar form (like chest down, bar not over mid foot, caving lower back, etc) it will only lead to plateus later on and increase risk of injury. I've fucked up my knees countless times before I worked on getting my form better. If you're interested in some good reading material I suggest Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength 3rd edition. It covers perfect form on squats, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, power cleans, and accessory movements like chin/pull ups, front squats, dips, curls, etc.
Two reasons: one you're probably doing high bar squats with the bar just below your neck line so therefore the torque on your lower back is greater than if you do low bar style squats and secondly you have to consciously think of chest up the whole range of motion. The second you let your chest cave you have lost rigidity in your low back. That coupled with high bar squats will make you lean forward and almost tip over. That's part of the reason the Valsalva maneuver is so important. Not only does it help with core stability, strength, and prevention of injury but it also aids in keeping your chest up.
My recommendation to you would be to drop the weight anywhere from 10-20% maybe more and work on perfecting your form. If you keep adding weight with subpar form (like chest down, bar not over mid foot, caving lower back, etc) it will only lead to plateus later on and increase risk of injury. I've fucked up my knees countless times before I worked on getting my form better. If you're interested in some good reading material I suggest Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength 3rd edition. It covers perfect form on squats, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, power cleans, and accessory movements like chin/pull ups, front squats, dips, curls, etc.
Thanks mate your a superstar, I had no idea where I was going wrong, I think the reason here from what i have read is, when iv'e done deadlifts the day beforwe and then i did squats, my core & lower back was not repaired, This is the only thing i can think off, today i did squats and did not do it once, i have recovered since Thursday. Yeah spot on i have the bar high, I think another problem is not sticking my chest out as you have said, I will take in what you said and lower the weight and take a look. My form has improved a lot since i started i was all over the place at first, but I know its no where near perfect yet, thanks much appreciated!
Thanks mate your a superstar, I had no idea where I was going wrong, I think the reason here from what i have read is, when iv'e done deadlifts the day beforwe and then i did squats, my core & lower back was not repaired, This is the only thing i can think off, today i did squats and did not do it once, i have recovered since Thursday. Yeah spot on i have the bar high, I think another problem is not sticking my chest out as you have said, I will take in what you said and lower the weight and take a look. My form has improved a lot since i started i was all over the place at first, but I know its no where near perfect yet, thanks much appreciated!
I do squats and deads on the same day (squats 3x/wk and deads 1-2x/wk depending on the wk) and I do my squats BEFORE deads for that same reason. Deads will effectively work and tire out the lower back so it will become an issue of leaning forward. If you do squats and deads on same day do squats first and if you do them on back to back days do squat day before deadlift day. Otherwise just make sure you have a day in between the two. Google and practice the valsalva maneuver it will help a ton with keeping your core tight and chest up and also with keeping your spine safe throughout the movement.
A few cues to watch out for:
1) always go to AT LEAST parallel. Parallel and below will activate the hamstrings and glutes while above parallel will not do so as much. The lower you go the more the glutes and hams work. Also if you stop ABOVE parallel it puts a shearing force in the knee joint and can lead to tendinitis or worse.
2) keep your grip as close to the middle as possible (flexibility is a limiting factor here). By keeping your hand placement closer to the center of the bar you tighten up your upper back and it will help support the bar better.
3) foot placement should be around shoulder width apart or a little wider (depends on your physical dimensions). Keep toes pointed out around 30degress by doing this you activate the groin and adductor muscles (fun fact: if you pull a groin muscle you can still squat by keeping your toes pointed forward, it takes the groin out of the movement).
4) actively think about keeping your knees in line with your toes. Coming down the knees have a tendency to cave in. Thinking about keeping knees out usually solves this problem.
5) the whole range of movement for the squat you should mentally think about coming up. If you think about coming down on the descent you usually either stop too high or lose tightness in hamstrings, both of which are no no's.
6) coming up picture someone has a chain attached to your tailbone and that's the first part of your body to come up during the ascent. Don't think about pushing down with your feet...picture straight up with the hips.
7) at all times during the movement you want to strive to keep the bar movement perfectly straight up and down and over mid foot area. Leaning forwards or backwards will offset the center of gravity and make you tip.
8) Your knees should be an inch or two (maybe more if you're very tall) in front of your toes at the bottom. Any more than that and your leaning too far forwards, any less and you're leaning too far backwards.
9) keep your elbows up when gripping the bar and wrists straight. When your elbows slack down your wrists will bend and attempt to support the weight. Terrible for tendinitis in the elbows and wrists.
10) always keep chest up high. Valsalva helps with this. Before going down, take a deep breath and hold it throughout the entire range of motion. Once you come back to the top and lock out your knees, release your breath and take another for the next rep. Don't try and exhale or inhale DURING the movement as this will make your torso and back slack and lose tightness.
I probably missed a few things but these are some of the more important cues to watch out for. Happy and safe squatting brother!
I do squats and deads on the same day (squats 3x/wk and deads 1-2x/wk depending on the wk) and I do my squats BEFORE deads for that same reason. Deads will effectively work and tire out the lower back so it will become an issue of leaning forward. If you do squats and deads on same day do squats first and if you do them on back to back days do squat day before deadlift day. Otherwise just make sure you have a day in between the two. Google and practice the valsalva maneuver it will help a ton with keeping your core tight and chest up and also with keeping your spine safe throughout the movement.
A few cues to watch out for:
1) always go to AT LEAST parallel. Parallel and below will activate the hamstrings and glutes while above parallel will not do so as much. The lower you go the more the glutes and hams work. Also if you stop ABOVE parallel it puts a shearing force in the knee joint and can lead to tendinitis or worse.
2) keep your grip as close to the middle as possible (flexibility is a limiting factor here). By keeping your hand placement closer to the center of the bar you tighten up your upper back and it will help support the bar better.
3) foot placement should be around shoulder width apart or a little wider (depends on your physical dimensions). Keep toes pointed out around 30degress by doing this you activate the groin and adductor muscles (fun fact: if you pull a groin muscle you can still squat by keeping your toes pointed forward, it takes the groin out of the movement).
4) actively think about keeping your knees in line with your toes. Coming down the knees have a tendency to cave in. Thinking about keeping knees out usually solves this problem.
5) the whole range of movement for the squat you should mentally think about coming up. If you think about coming down on the descent you usually either stop too high or lose tightness in hamstrings, both of which are no no's.
6) coming up picture someone has a chain attached to your tailbone and that's the first part of your body to come up during the ascent. Don't think about pushing down with your feet...picture straight up with the hips.
7) at all times during the movement you want to strive to keep the bar movement perfectly straight up and down and over mid foot area. Leaning forwards or backwards will offset the center of gravity and make you tip.
8) Your knees should be an inch or two (maybe more if you're very tall) in front of your toes at the bottom. Any more than that and your leaning too far forwards, any less and you're leaning too far backwards.
9) keep your elbows up when gripping the bar and wrists straight. When your elbows slack down your wrists will bend and attempt to support the weight. Terrible for tendinitis in the elbows and wrists.
10) always keep chest up high. Valsalva helps with this. Before going down, take a deep breath and hold it throughout the entire range of motion. Once you come back to the top and lock out your knees, release your breath and take another for the next rep. Don't try and exhale or inhale DURING the movement as this will make your torso and back slack and lose tightness.
I probably missed a few things but these are some of the more important cues to watch out for. Happy and safe squatting brother!
excellent information mate, I can immediately point out that no.2 is something i figured out myself only 1-2 weeks ago, it felt much better using close grip and i was shocked that just where i hold the bar felt 100x better for me, I will look into the valsalva maneuver. Much appriecated mate.
excellent information mate, I can immediately point out that no.2 is something i figured out myself only 1-2 weeks ago, it felt much better using close grip and i was shocked that just where i hold the bar felt 100x better for me, I will look into the valsalva maneuver. Much appriecated mate.
Not a problem
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