Nandi's 9 BBing Myths

[RoadHouse]

Just saw this on CEM, it kind of makes a thread i made earlier today a moot point. Well, screw me.

Biggest Bodybuilding Myths
What do you guys and gals consider to be the biggest, or most widely propagated "myths" or misconceptions in BB, especially related to drug use? These can be ideas that are patently false, or just things for which there is no supporting scientific research, or for which there exists research refuting the notion or claim.

I compiled a short list off the top of my head based on posts and threads that appear regularly on this board. Some of these may be better characterized as controversial rather than false, but I'd like to hear your ideas.

1) The use of thyroid hormone damages the thyroid

See mind and muscle #10

2) GH administration builds muscle mass

No studies have ever confirmed this. Several have refuted it. Hepatic IGF-1 is probably not important to muscle growth

3) Estrogen promotes fat accumulation

Estrogen has been shown to be both anorectic and lipolytic, the latter via reduction of lipoprotein lipase levels

4) Aromatase inhibitors and SERMS reduce the anabolic effects of steroids

Again, there is no research to support this. The effect is claimed to be due to reduction in IGF-1. As mentioned, hepatic IGF-1 is probably relatively unimportant for muscle growth

5) Proviron prevents gynecomastia

This is based on the fact that Proviron is 5 alpha reduced, like DHT. Numerous other Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) are 5 alpha reduced and they are not claimed to prevent gyno. Proviron has never been used in a study to treat or prevent gyno

6) Winstrol prevents "progestigenic gyno"

There is no evidence that synthetic progestigenic androgens cause gyno, or even contribute to it. Winstrol has been shown to be a progesterone receptor agonist in the one study that looked at this effect

7) Insulin use damages your pancreas

Insulin is routinely used in type 2 diabetes to lower blood sugar. It has not been shown to harm the pancreas in these patients or in any other subjects.

8) Antiestrogens prevent bloat from Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) use

Rather than a myth, this is probably better called a half truth. Androgens can directly promote water retention without aromatizing

9) Androgen receptors need to be "cleaned out" periodically

Androgen receptors are continually being turned over in the body. There is no need to clean out existing receptors because they only have a halflife of a few hours

 

[JohnnyB]

Nice

JohnnyB

 

[RoadHouse]

Ill bump this, people need to read it, help out a lot of possible questions.

 

[StoneColdNTO]

Nice post !!

 

[Drveejay11]

GREAT post!

 

[house1]

great post roadhouse

 

[macro]

notation #1

NANDI has never taken or used any of the drugs above. (except perhaps thyroid)

1. heavy use of exogenous thyroid does cause shrinking of the gland

2. GH does increase muscle mass. How significant or direct that growth is ??

3. estrogen increases fat accummulation through several mechanisms... including agonism and upregulation of the A2 as well as reduction of circulating Thyroid.

4. agree... however reduction in water and fat accummulation can diminish gains, even muscle

5. proviron has some interesting properties.. certain strong androgens, including DHT do decrease aromatase levels... though agree its not well researched.

6. syntheitc progestins do cause gyno. winstrol is a mixed agonist antagonist of the PR.-- comments like these come from too much "book time" and only reading one study and trying to extrapolate it. ie the one study with a particular cell type wherein stan has PR agonism.

7. agree, though exogenous insulin use can cause both acute and long term health problems.

8. true. sort of... though most water gain comes from ER and PR agonism... if none then adrogen based water is minimal.. sub-q water is usually quite reduced.

9. agree.. though for other reasons cycling may be of necessity

 

[Doc Banner]

great thread guys...

 

[ulter]

I like nandi but some of those are just ridiculous.
I agree he needs to spend more time in the real world.

 

[RoadHouse]

Just buy r-ALA and YOhimburn right guys?

 

[ulter]

There you go RoadHouse, your advice is better than Nandi's.

 

[RoadHouse]

LOL,
Im sure you caught a bit of sarcasm in my post, but i am in the r-ALA believer club.

 

[ulter]

It's all good bro.

 

[macro]

Just buy r-ALA and YOhimburn right guys?

glucorell R and yohimburn DF

 

[ready2explode]

notation #1

NANDI has never taken or used any of the drugs above. (except perhaps thyroid)

It really fucking bothers me when ppl make such a stupid remark...how ignorant can you be? Why do you need to use a product in order to learn how it works? How many times have we all heard that the 320lbs 50%bf fat guy in the gym is taking Winstrol (winny) because it will "cut him up"?

Macro, why must someone else post your answer on nandi's board? Why havent you simply copied your post and pasted it on to his site? We both know you've been there before...

 

[ulter]

"Why do you need to use a product in order to learn how it works? "

In most cases you don't. But most of the "products" as you call them are not researched for the purposes we use them. And most are not researched using healthy athletes. So the best information on these products comes from the people who have used them over the last 20-30 years. The exchange of results and information between these people was the original purpose of these boards. Then along comes someone who has never used them, who takes studies done on the inferm or rats and tries to extrapolate the researcher's results and apply it to athletes. Sometimes these results are the same but many times they are not. And many times the person doing the extrapolating has missed important facts about what they're posting. Any long time exposure to these "products" either by way of observation or personal use will give the "expert" a better understanding of the way they work and what they do than someone who has no real world experience.

"Macro, why must someone else post your answer on nandi's board? Why havent you simply copied your post and pasted it on to his site? "

The fact that Macro's on a plane to London may have something to do with it.

 

[SWALE]

Let's all remember that probably very few of the researchers who are coming up with all these studies actually use steroids, GH, insulin, thyroid, etc. And we certainly have no problem employing their results.

However, when we try to extrapolate results drawn from studies conducted where hormone levels are in the physiological range, to steroid serum concentrations, we often run into trouble. Our conclusions then may be logical, reasonable, and WRONG.

On the other hand, there can be no doubt that actually FEELING how these various products work has tremendous value, and often leads to some genuine break-through thinking. For example, the advantage I and my patients enjoy from the ten years I did Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) comes in pretty handy now...

 

[ready2explode]

In most cases you don't. But most of the "products" as you call them are not researched for the purposes we use them. And most are not researched using healthy athletes. So the best information on these products comes from the people who have used them over the last 20-30 years. The exchange of results and information between these people was the original purpose of these boards. Then along comes someone who has never used them, who takes studies done on the inferm or rats and tries to extrapolate the researcher's results and apply it to athletes. Sometimes these results are the same but many times they are not. And many times the person doing the extrapolating has missed important facts about what they're posting. Any long time exposure to these "products" either by way of observation or personal use will give the "expert" a better understanding of the way they work and what they do than someone who has no real world experience.

How does macro know what drugs nandi has used and which he hasnt? Has macro secretly been watching nandi since he was born? Could we not say that nandi, at the very least, would be a close observer of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and ppl who use them? He is an admin of a steriod board...There also arent many who can even compare to his scientific knowledge, at least not on the baords. No one can refute that. In my eyes, and many others, Nandi knows his shit. Lets not get into your boy macro on the other hand and his yohimburn, woops Nandi already did. This is the real reason why I suspect the post was written.

The fact that Macro's on a plane to London may have something to do with it.

Maybe I am one of a kind, but after posting something like macro did, I would have immediately went over to nandi's site and posted it there. This would have taken at the very most, 3 minutes....macro couldnt do that before he left?

 

[ready2explode]

However, when we try to extrapolate results drawn from studies conducted where hormone levels are in the physiological range, to steroid serum concentrations, we often run into trouble. Our conclusions then may be logical, reasonable, and WRONG.

This is true for both users, making their own inferences without the knowledge to back it and for researches. But someone with an education, especially in relating field, is the person I'm going to believe over some joe shmoe who self administers steriods with out an ounce of knowledge on the subject.

On the other hand, there can be no doubt that actually FEELING how these various products work has tremendous value, and often leads to some genuine break-through thinking. For example, the advantage I and my patients enjoy from the ten years I did Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) comes in pretty handy now...

I will agree that "feeling" the effects of these types products does help, but i will not agree with your term tremendously. It helps somewhat, but if one was to talk to a few users they could get a general idea of what they were talking about. This observationist, i guess you could call him, would rank JUST below the actual user in my book. Then again, we all dont know if this really applies to nandi because we dont know what he has or hasnt used.

 

[ulter]

I think you should ask nandi yourself what he has personal experience with if you want to know. I know from his past posts but you might want to just ask him. Your hero worship is touching by the way.

As far as nandi posting about Yohimburn goes, I've never seen it. But again he's never used it so it makes no difference one way or the other. It sounds like you've gotten the idea that nandi has debated this with Macro. Nandi never debates Macro. Nandi posts and Macro corrects him when he overlooks something or gets it wrong. That's it.

You make this sound like someone is personally attacking nandi. I have a lot of respect for nandi. He puts in a lot of time on issues he feels are important and has a lot of good things to say. When we have had a thread on an important issue at AF I've emailed him and asked him to post his opinion. And I have never been disappointed by his contributions. The best time of nandi's life was when he was in school and in many ways his board allows him to keep a piece of that and that's great. There's no ill feelings about him from anyone I know. He just doesn't always get it right. Who does?