Nolvadex no good for post cycle therapy (pct) ??

Nelson Montana said:
Deca is tricky because the progesterone can do a number on your dick. I'd cut that back to no more than 300mgs a week and cut it out entirely the last couple of weeks of the cycle.

Unleashed and Post-Cycle will help with the e and libido and erectle concerns. (Call 1-800-343-1803) but like any anti-e, it won't do much against excess prog. For that, you may want to add just a touch of Winstrol (winny). (25mgs a day). That'll help.

Good luck, and let me know how it works out. I think you're going to be happy with the results.
I have ran deca at 400mg beofore, and had no problem with recovery with clomid, and no real problem with progeterenic sides. NO real problem with erectile function either.
 
jcp2 said:
I have ran deca at 400mg beofore, and had no problem with recovery with clomid, and no real problem with progeterenic sides. NO real problem with erectile function either.


That's good. You're lucky. deca never bothered me until I was in my 40's. Then it was like, "where the hell did mydick go?". But I bounced back. Some guys have a hell of a time recovering.

slim: I'm not sure what you mean. If you saw my "before" pics I think it's pretty obvious that I know how to take a hardgainer and make excellant progress. I went from a 145 pound 35 year old to being a body model at age 40 -- drug free. Then with only tiny amounts of gear placed 5th at the NPC at age 42. What have you done?

But maybe 190 pounds (a solid gain of 45 pounds that I've maintained) isn't big enough for you. I guess if I did a 6 month cycle of 2 grams of test and anadrol I could gain another 30 pounds and then my opinion would have more merit .
 
Nelson Montana said:
The piece written by BIG CAT (posted by liftsiron) is typical of a book knowledge expert -- which is what BIG CAT is. He has never done Nolva, or Clomid, or steroids. That prattle was essentially "borrowed" material from Bill LLwellin. BIG CAT "borrows" from lots of places. That's what makes him an expert apparently.


I'm not talking about your pictures, but you talk like steroid guru and take only two ultra light cycles, more: you criticize people who has no practice like you.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Yes, BIG CAT admits himself that he's never done steroids but claims it isn't necessary to be an expert. Sorry, I disagree. If I had a choice between flying with an experienced pilot and someone who taught aviation but never flew, I'm going with the guy with experience!

BIG CAT graduated high school in 2001.

Look, if Nolva was so great for raising T levels, why isn't it prescrbed for low T?

What do I recommend? Well, an ounce of prevention....Find out how suseptable you are to gyno and avoid those compounds that exasperate it. I think Proviron is good. And in certain cases, A-dex , if it's used cautiously. But most guys would only need supps, like the ones found in Post-Cycle from Protein Factory. Even if you use drugs, you would need a lot less with the right supps. The bottom line is, you need time to recover. Most drugs just cushion the crash. But sooner or later you have to fly on your own.


Why isn't clomid. Clomid is prescribed for the treatment of ovualotory failure in women, who wish to become pregnant. Once agin you are pushing nutritional supps from protein factory, likely at the expense of those inexperienced enough to believe that a otc concoction of herbs, can replace a proper post cycle therapy (pct) protocol.
 
Nelson Montana is just pushing the Protein Factory because he probably receives some kind of a kick back from them for promoting their products. It's so obvoius that it's ridiculous! Come on Nelson...aren't you selling enough copies of your new book?
 
slim: You are mistaken.

I did 2 cycles prior to entering the NPC. I've done many moe since.

liftsiron: You are mistaken.

The fact that Clomid isn't used for Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) reinforces my point. It is meant for women. What does this have to do with Nolva? I've said many times over that Clomid sucks. You seem to think that using Clomid is "responsible" That's the myth. And I never said to use just supps if you're extremely suseptable to gyno or are doing long, heavy cycles -- but they'll help. For most guys using more conservative cycles, it may be all they need. I stand by that. And the results speak for themselves.

DUANABOL: You are mistaken

It isn't like I get a kickback from promoting someone elses supps. I designed the supps. The disovered the information and conducted studies and found what really worked and what didn't. It's not like someone said; "Here, we sell this. "Promote it." I understand your cynicism though.

It's funny, when I recommended the ingredients seperately and told people where to buy them at a good price, and I received not ONE PENNY for it, I was a hero. Then I tell people where they can get the ingredients together in one formula , since I put it together, and I'm a bum.

Hey DUANABOL -- wasn't I your friend just two days ago? You seem to be very impetuous. You should get the facts together before jumping to conclusions. Aren't you the guy who didn't know BIG CAT was a high school kid who never did steroids?

I've been involved with this sport for over 30 years. I've dealt with the biggest and the brightest in the business. Give a little credit bro. Or at least, learn to listen a little better.
 
Clomid & Nolva have been around for almost 40 years, and both have been used for improving fertility in men & women...
Both increase LH & testosterone, the comment that clomid decreases LH obviously makes no sense....

There are dozens of studies which show this, anyone who has Internet access can go to pubmed.com & do a search...
The research is definitely not conflicting in this area, I challenge you to post a study in which a SERM decreased testosterone in normal subjects...
 
I am not going to get into a pissing match about this, but before you slam Nelson on promoting these products, i do recall a long while ago, before i posted anywhere, he showed a bunch of people at elite where to get that product, and I remember reading alot of positive feedback on it. Now if I could still search at elite, i would go back and find it, lol. I am not saying it works, but i am saying that he promoted this long before he designed or had any financial interest in the product. Also if you don't think half the people on these boards don't have some vested interest in something you are mistaken. No need to slam him for that.

As far as Nolva or clomid not working, I am not sure i buy it, but i will continue to read, use, and formulate an opinion of my own on the subjects instead of bashing the guy for no reason.
 
Unleashed is for lowering SHBG and raising free T and Post-Cycle is for lowering e, raising libido and erectile function and regenerating the liver. The reports so far have been outstandingly positive.

sounds interesting-- may give it a go when i do decide to come off
 
hhajdo said:
Clomid & Nolva have been around for almost 40 years, and both have been used for improving fertility in men & women...
Both increase LH & testosterone, the comment that clomid decreases LH obviously makes no sense....

There are dozens of studies which show this, anyone who has Internet access can go to pubmed.com & do a search...
The research is definitely not conflicting in this area, I challenge you to post a study in which a SERM decreased testosterone in normal subjects...


I wouldn't expect to find a study that shows that because it's unlikely anyone would conduct a study that set out to show it. All studies are set out to prove something and it's amazing how conclusions can be drawn to prove a point you're being paid to prove.

Having said that, there are several studies that show Clomid raises SHBG that I'm sure you can find. And there is one a where it lowered LH but I don't remember where it is a the moment. But I (and many others) don't need a study to know it can make you feel like crap and kill your dick. That's because, again, it isn't used for that purpose. But there are warnings right on the literature that warn of the potential eye damage.

Anueay, I think you put too much stock in this stuff. The fact that a study was conducted is not the end-all be-all of proof. It also works the other way around. Because a study WASN'T conducted doesn't mean a conclusion is wrong. For example, I bet you can't find a single study that proves an apple is red. But it's red.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Hey DUANABOL -- wasn't I your friend just two days ago? You seem to be very impetuous. You should get the facts together before jumping to conclusions. Aren't you the guy who didn't know BIG CAT was a high school kid who never did steroids?

I've been involved with this sport for over 30 years. I've dealt with the biggest and the brightest in the business. Give a little credit bro. Or at least, learn to listen a little better.

OK, just wanted to hear your side of the Protein Factory story. Sounds good! I've checked the site out and they have some good things available to the bodybuilding community. I respect you bro. And yes, I was shocked to hear that BIG CAT was a joke.

:D
 
Nelson Montana said:
I wouldn't expect to find a study that shows that because it's unlikely anyone would conduct a study that set out to show it. All studies are set out to prove something and it's amazing how conclusions can be drawn to prove a point you're being paid to prove.

Having said that, there are several studies that show Clomid raises SHBG that I'm sure you can find. And there is one a where it lowered LH but I don't remember where it is a the moment. But I (and many others) don't need a study to know it can make you feel like crap and kill your dick. That's because, again, it isn't used for that purpose. But there are warnings right on the literature that warn of the potential eye damage.

Anueay, I think you put too much stock in this stuff. The fact that a study was conducted is not the end-all be-all of proof. It also works the other way around. Because a study WASN'T conducted doesn't mean a conclusion is wrong. For example, I bet you can't find a single study that proves an apple is red. But it's red.


I've seen maybe 2 studies on tamoxifen (on normal men) in which it didn't increase LH/testosterone, but the majority of reasearch suggests that it works....

Both Tamoxifen & Clomid increase SHBG, but since they also increase testosterone the net result is positive - SHBG is suppressed post cycle anyway...

They're are usually not prescribed for low T because men with hypothalamus/pituitary disease wouldn't respond, & those with primary testicular disorder need HRT.
 
jcp2 said:
I am not going to get into a pissing match about this, but before you slam Nelson on promoting these products, i do recall a long while ago, before i posted anywhere, he showed a bunch of people at elite where to get that product, and I remember reading alot of positive feedback on it. Now if I could still search at elite, i would go back and find it, lol. I am not saying it works, but i am saying that he promoted this long before he designed or had any financial interest in the product. Also if you don't think half the people on these boards don't have some vested interest in something you are mistaken. No need to slam him for that.

As far as Nolva or clomid not working, I am not sure i buy it, but i will continue to read, use, and formulate an opinion of my own on the subjects instead of bashing the guy for no reason.

I don't see anyone slamming Nelson, however I see Nelson slamming Bigcat. As far as clomid and nolva not working to restore htpa, is complete lunacy. Christ Dan Duchaine knew that decades ago.
 
liftsiron said:
I don't see anyone slamming Nelson, however I see Nelson slamming Bigcat. As far as clomid and nolva not working to restore htpa, is complete lunacy. Christ Dan Duchaine knew that decades ago.

liftsiron, he's referring to my comment about Nelson and the Protein Factory. Yes, I jumped the gun and said a few things uncalled for. Not really bashing, just jumping to the wrong conclusions. It's all good! :)
 
liftsiron: being told I'm irresponsible and full of shit is a slam, but that's besides the point. How have I slammed BIG CAT? I said he was a kid. I said he never used the substances he's professed to e an expert in. I said he taks information from existed mateial. That's all true. Are you so politically correct that you believe any unflatering information, is a slam even if it's 100% completely factual? Come on bro. Let's keep it real.

As far as Dan goes -- he was a genius. And the fact that he deducted the potential use of Nolva is nothing short of brilliant. I loved and respected his work and thought of him as a friend. But he wasn't always right and I'd tell him so. And he knew he wasn't always right. So what does what does a 15 year old flawed theory have to do with this? Again, let's keep it real.
 
Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn


I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.


The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.


References
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
 
If your current recovery cycle works for you, then keep doing it--don't fix what isn't broken. If your current recovery cycle isn't working for you, then consider alternatives. Nelson's post cycle therapy (pct) is an option. Does it work for you? You won't know until you try it. Currently, many BB'ers are using HCG intermittently throughout their cycles to try to maintain testicular mass. They may run the risk of LH resistance because of chronic use. I say "may" because it doesn't happen 100% of the time. I tend to side with current endocrinology recovery methods and I agree with Bill Llewellyn's thoughts above: HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid (as needed). The bottom line: go with what works for YOU. Also, realize that if you do have something to realize, it is worth your while to always do a recovery cycle. If your Testos levels are already out fo the normal range, then you are wasting your time doing recovery.
 
Nelson Montana said:
liftsiron: being told I'm irresponsible and full of shit is a slam, but that's besides the point. How have I slammed BIG CAT? I said he was a kid. I said he never used the substances he's professed to e an expert in. I said he taks information from existed mateial. That's all true. Are you so politically correct that you believe any unflatering information, is a slam even if it's 100% completely factual? Come on bro. Let's keep it real.

As far as Dan goes -- he was a genius. And the fact that he deducted the potential use of Nolva is nothing short of brilliant. I loved and respected his work and thought of him as a friend. But he wasn't always right and I'd tell him so. And he knew he wasn't always right. So what does what does a 15 year old flawed theory have to do with this? Again, let's keep it real.


All's cool Nelson, once agin you started a thread that caused debate, which causes people to think. Regardless, I do have respect for your ideas, especially in the area of herbal research.
I may have sounded hostile when I said that you were pushing protein factories "unleashed". You do push it, but if you believe in a product, you have every right to endorse it.
jpc2 said that he can remember you adovacating the ingredients, long before protein factory came up with the product. I must say so do I.
 
I swear by my post cycle therapy (pct) wClomid and hcg....call me a fool but ive cycled for over ten yrs and the first 3 or 4 w/ no post cycle therapy (pct) was hell w/out it
Thae addition of HCG and Clomid works. Im living walking been there done that PROOF...theories are just that...theories...i know what works and im VERY skeptical of any supplement thats gonna make me recover to the likes of my trusty HCG and Clomid......Supplements my ass...thyve been claiming miracles since i started lifting and these claims just inflated the bank accts of the co.s and the representatives lookin to make a buck....supplement post cycle therapy (pct).....BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Cordially,

Gator Mclusky
 
can any one tell me why when taking clomid percribed from my doctor for low sex drive, my test and estrogen both went out of the range. I understand that lowering estrogen makes the body produce more test but why did my estrogen get so high if i didnt even do cycle, is it because the excess test converted to estrogen. How is this possible for the estrogen to get higher when taking an anti e????
 
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