PCT for coming off of 4 year cycle

[Sharkweek]

All,

I have been on for roughly 4 years. When I went on, I had no intentions of having Kids, but that has changed. Some quick facts:

5'10"
230 lbs
12-14% BF
competitive powerlifter (I cut to 220LBs for competitions)

The cycle has been a base of 500mg test as a cruise dose with occasional Tren, Dbol, Deca, or NPP thrown in.

The plan:

Stop Test Enanthate
Run Test Prop at 100 MG EOD for 20 days while Test E clears
Run HCG at 500 IU E3D starting 3 days after last Test Prop shot
Run Clomid/Nolva at 100/40 for 2 weeks starting 5 days after HCG
Run Clomid/Nolva at 50/20 for 2 weeks then Nolva at 20 for another 2 weeks
Get bloodwork done 4-5 weeks after last nolva dose

Questions:

I have Arimidex on hand, is this a preferred AI for PCT?
Would it be better to start the HCG at say 250 IU EOD or E3D now and run until clomid/nolva?

Appreciate any input or thoughts; let me have it. I know this may be difficult to recover from. I ran a PCT one other time, and did pretty well with just clomid and nolva at 50/20 for 4 weeks; but that was like 6 years ago, and was like a 12 weeks cycle.

 

[PapaNoel]

You call 500mg test a cruise? lol what?
You haven't really researched much have you?

So lets fix this for you:
Run HCG at 1000iu every day for 15 days, starting 5 days after last prop shot.
100mg clomid is way to high and totally unnecessary.
Run 50/40mg clomid/nolva for 2 weeks. Run another 4 weeks with 25/20mg.
Probably want to add proviron at 50mg per day.

You'll need aromasin/adex for the HCG duration as it'll spike estrogen but wont be needed after.
You'll take blood work minimum 10 weeks or result wont be close to accurate, for you, i'd say probably wait 16 weeks.

 

[Anon44]

500 miggs for a cruise........a cruise on a speedboat lol.

You call 500mg test a cruise? lol what?
You haven't really researched much have you?

So lets fix this for you:
Run HCG at 1000iu every day for 15 days, starting 5 days after last prop shot.
100mg clomid is way to high and totally unnecessary.
Run 50/40mg clomid/nolva for 2 weeks. Run another 4 weeks with 25/20mg.
Probably want to add proviron at 50mg per day.

You'll need aromasin/adex for the HCG duration as it'll spike estrogen but wont be needed after.
You'll take blood work minimum 10 weeks or result wont be close to accurate, for you, i'd say probably wait 16 weeks.

 

[Anon44]

If your concern is being able to have kids then you need to get your sperm checked. I was on gear like you for years straight and I came off for a couple years or so without pct, no I***8217;m not saying not to pct it just wasn***8217;t an option for me. My wife and I were trying to have a child and it was not working and her idiot doctor where we used to live always said it was probably me and everything looked fine with her, fast forward several years later we moved to where we are now she got a new doctor and my wife finally convinced me to get my sperm checked. For me it was embarrassing going and cranking one out in a cup but I put my big boy pants on and did the deed. My sperm came back excellent the doctor said there was zero issues on my end. Her new doctor found out she has endometriosis and that is why we could not have kids.

A few of my friends have had children while on gear with no issues, no I***8217;m not saying to go have kids while on gear I***8217;m just saying being on gear does not necessarily mean your shooting blanks.

The most important thing to find out is if your sperm is good. If you have been doing the deed with your woman and not pulling out with no pregnancies it does not necessarily mean it is you. Your insurance will cover the test. Good luck and I hope the best for you on your journey to having children. I wish I had one or two more than anything and my wife is crushed because of it.

All,

I have been on for roughly 4 years. When I went on, I had no intentions of having Kids, but that has changed. Some quick facts:

5'10"
230 lbs
12-14% BF
competitive powerlifter (I cut to 220LBs for competitions)

The cycle has been a base of 500mg test as a cruise dose with occasional Tren, Dbol, Deca, or NPP thrown in.

The plan:

Stop Test Enanthate
Run Test Prop at 100 MG EOD for 20 days while Test E clears
Run HCG at 500 IU E3D starting 3 days after last Test Prop shot
Run Clomid/Nolva at 100/40 for 2 weeks starting 5 days after HCG
Run Clomid/Nolva at 50/20 for 2 weeks then Nolva at 20 for another 2 weeks
Get bloodwork done 4-5 weeks after last nolva dose

Questions:

I have Arimidex on hand, is this a preferred AI for PCT?
Would it be better to start the HCG at say 250 IU EOD or E3D now and run until clomid/nolva?

Appreciate any input or thoughts; let me have it. I know this may be difficult to recover from. I ran a PCT one other time, and did pretty well with just clomid and nolva at 50/20 for 4 weeks; but that was like 6 years ago, and was like a 12 weeks cycle.

 

[Sharkweek]

You call 500mg test a cruise? lol what?
You haven't really researched much have you?

So lets fix this for you:
Run HCG at 1000iu every day for 15 days, starting 5 days after last prop shot.
100mg clomid is way to high and totally unnecessary.
Run 50/40mg clomid/nolva for 2 weeks. Run another 4 weeks with 25/20mg.
Probably want to add proviron at 50mg per day.

You'll need aromasin/adex for the HCG duration as it'll spike estrogen but wont be needed after.
You'll take blood work minimum 10 weeks or result wont be close to accurate, for you, i'd say probably wait 16 weeks.

I feel I researched a decent amount; but I am definitely open to hearing other opinions. My only concern with running 1000IU of HCG ED is desensitizing the leydig cells; I have read from several sources that anything over 500IU/Day you really start to risk that. I would be willing to run up to 500IU/Day; but I feel pretty uncomfortable running more than that. Do you feel that would be inadequate to stimulate the leydig cells?

My understanding of Proviron; is that is can suppress production of LH? Why would this be beneficial during PCT? What benefit over adex/asin is there?

Point taken on the clomid; that is fairly high, but I was trying to be semi-aggressive with it since the cycle was so long.

Would the following be more in line with what you would think:

Last shot of test P
Wait 5 days then run HCG at 500IU/Day for 15 days
Wait 3 days
Clomid/nolva at 50/40 for two weeks, then 25/20 for two weeks, with extra nolva on hand in case I want to run the nolva an extra two weeks?

Thanks for the input; if I am incorrect on anything, please correct me.

 

[Sharkweek]

If your concern is being able to have kids then you need to get your sperm checked. I was on gear like you for years straight and I came off for a couple years or so without pct, no I***8217;m not saying not to pct it just wasn***8217;t an option for me. My wife and I were trying to have a child and it was not working and her idiot doctor where we used to live always said it was probably me and everything looked fine with her, fast forward several years later we moved to where we are now she got a new doctor and my wife finally convinced me to get my sperm checked. For me it was embarrassing going and cranking one out in a cup but I put my big boy pants on and did the deed. My sperm came back excellent the doctor said there was zero issues on my end. Her new doctor found out she has endometriosis and that is why we could not have kids.

A few of my friends have had children while on gear with no issues, no I***8217;m not saying to go have kids while on gear I***8217;m just saying being on gear does not necessarily mean your shooting blanks.

The most important thing to find out is if your sperm is good. If you have been doing the deed with your woman and not pulling out with no pregnancies it does not necessarily mean it is you. Your insurance will cover the test. Good luck and I hope the best for you on your journey to having children. I wish I had one or two more than anything and my wife is crushed because of it.

Thank you for the well wishes; I have an appointment made for 3 weeks from now to get my count checked; I am just looking to have all my bases covered under the assumption that my count will probably not be great due to the long/heavy usage especially with the 19-NOR compounds I used. I understand 500MG Test isn't really a cruise; but I had some goals in mind and was willing to do what it took to get there. Now that I did that; I feel it's only fair to my wife that she/my family get more attention.

 

[PapaNoel]

I feel I researched a decent amount; but I am definitely open to hearing other opinions. My only concern with running 1000IU of HCG ED is desensitizing the leydig cells; I have read from several sources that anything over 500IU/Day you really start to risk that. I would be willing to run up to 500IU/Day; but I feel pretty uncomfortable running more than that. Do you feel that would be inadequate to stimulate the leydig cells?

My understanding of Proviron; is that is can suppress production of LH? Why would this be beneficial during PCT? What benefit over adex/asin is there?

Point taken on the clomid; that is fairly high, but I was trying to be semi-aggressive with it since the cycle was so long.

Would the following be more in line with what you would think:

Last shot of test P
Wait 5 days then run HCG at 500IU/Day for 15 days
Wait 3 days
Clomid/nolva at 50/40 for two weeks, then 25/20 for two weeks, with extra nolva on hand in case I want to run the nolva an extra two weeks?

Thanks for the input; if I am incorrect on anything, please correct me.

You've been on a cycle and shutdown for a whooping 4 years where you've taken no HCG at all? Yeh, i'd do 1000iu for 15 days, its not like you're gonna do HCG for years.
Proviron is mildly suppressive, it's true, but it will also raise free test and combat some of the negative side effects of nolva. And you'll also feel like less shit in the sense of on vs off. Its totally optionally but something I would do personally, so i suggested it.
There's no need for such high doses of clomid, it can actually be dangerous, specially for weeks on end. 50/25mg ED is plenty of clomid

Try to avoid long term use of nolvadex, loss of libido being the worst, estrogenic side effects being close second but there's even more.

Aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor meaning once you stop taking it, it will simply "die off" with the estrogen it binded to, adex does not work like that and can have a rebound effect where it simply releases the estrogen it binded to back into the body.
It's also a lot harder to crash with aromasin vs adex.

 

[SoHo]

NO PDF LINKS ALLOWED

that's a great article about the treatment of azoospermia, which is usually what we as steroid users worry about. it talks about how HCG and HMG are utilized to make a man more fertile after steroid use.

you're going to need an aggressive PCT. blast HCG at 500iu EOD day for 2 weeks, and HMG run 50iu 3x per week, then clomid and nolva for 6-8 weeks after that. keep aromasin on hand just incase to fight off any unwanted estradiol.

just be prepared though.. the recovery process will really suck. my suggestion to you would be to forget about the test prop, and just taper off the test until you're steadily at about 150mg a week for a month or so. it'll be an easier time for you to readapt to normal test levels. another suggestion would be to not rush it.

good luck

 

[scorob777]

I feel I researched a decent amount; but I am definitely open to hearing other opinions. My only concern with running 1000IU of HCG ED is desensitizing the leydig cells; I have read from several sources that anything over 500IU/Day you really start to risk that. I would be willing to run up to 500IU/Day; but I feel pretty uncomfortable running more than that. Do you feel that would be inadequate to stimulate the leydig cells?

My understanding of Proviron; is that is can suppress production of LH? Why would this be beneficial during PCT? What benefit over adex/asin is there?

Point taken on the clomid; that is fairly high, but I was trying to be semi-aggressive with it since the cycle was so long.

Would the following be more in line with what you would think:

Last shot of test P
Wait 5 days then run HCG at 500IU/Day for 15 days
Wait 3 days
Clomid/nolva at 50/40 for two weeks, then 25/20 for two weeks, with extra nolva on hand in case I want to run the nolva an extra two weeks?

Thanks for the input; if I am incorrect on anything, please correct me.

This plan is better than your first. My advice would be take HCG in greater dosages every day. 1,000 IU/day is no problem. Various sites out there have debunked the desensitization thing. Don't be locked into any particular timeframe either, how long depends on how you respond. You haven't said anything about testicular atrophy, if the boys are small you have a good indicator there for how long to run HCG - i.e. they need to plump up before you even think of stopping, could be a bunch more weeks than you think. Also, after being on the HCG for several weeks go get a blood test to see what testosterone you are making. If it's not acceptable then stay on the HCG and repeat every week until it is. If it's two weeks cool, if it's six or eight weeks then so be it.

The advice on clomid dosage was good. The only reason to take 100 would be if you still had exogenous testosterone in you. In your case after the bleed down and prop you won't. I'd use the lower doses and run this PCT out for six weeks vs four.

The other advice on HMG is golden. If you have access to it then you want to do this. HCG gets your leydig cells making testosterone. The HMG will kickstart making sperm.

 

[Sharkweek]

This plan is better than your first. My advice would be take HCG in greater dosages every day. 1,000 IU/day is no problem. Various sites out there have debunked the desensitization thing. Don't be locked into any particular timeframe either, how long depends on how you respond. You haven't said anything about testicular atrophy, if the boys are small you have a good indicator there for how long to run HCG - i.e. they need to plump up before you even think of stopping, could be a bunch more weeks than you think. Also, after being on the HCG for several weeks go get a blood test to see what testosterone you are making. If it's not acceptable then stay on the HCG and repeat every week until it is. If it's two weeks cool, if it's six or eight weeks then so be it.

The advice on clomid dosage was good. The only reason to take 100 would be if you still had exogenous testosterone in you. In your case after the bleed down and prop you won't. I'd use the lower doses and run this PCT out for six weeks vs four.

The other advice on HMG is golden. If you have access to it then you want to do this. HCG gets your leydig cells making testosterone. The HMG will kickstart making sperm.

It seems I'm making a bigger deal out of the leydig cell desensitization than necessary, testicles are atrophied, so that is definitely a good indicator of when the HCG has worked. I do not currently have access to HMG, but I will see if I can get some.

I think I am going to go with the above (second) option with the only change being to run the HCG at 1000IU/day for atleast the first week, if the testicular atrophy has subsided I will run the second week at 500IU/day, otherwise I will do all 14 days at 1000IU. I assume i should have extra hcg on hand in case they havent plumped back up after two weeks at 1000IU/day?

 

[Anon44]

That HMG works really good, I got to know a sponsor on another board pretty well and him and his wife were trying for years to have kids and he got turned on to the HMG and they had their first right away. Now they just had their 3rd child from using it. He offered me some but it wouldn***8217;t of helped since my wife was the one with the problem. I forgot but I think it was like $6-800 nut that pocket change if it works that well.

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(03)00365-0/pdf

that's a great article about the treatment of azoospermia, which is usually what we as steroid users worry about. it talks about how HCG and HMG are utilized to make a man more fertile after steroid use.

you're going to need an aggressive PCT. blast HCG at 500iu EOD day for 2 weeks, and HMG run 50iu 3x per week, then clomid and nolva for 6-8 weeks after that. keep aromasin on hand just incase to fight off any unwanted estradiol.

just be prepared though.. the recovery process will really suck. my suggestion to you would be to forget about the test prop, and just taper off the test until you're steadily at about 150mg a week for a month or so. it'll be an easier time for you to readapt to normal test levels. another suggestion would be to not rush it.

good luck

 

[Mycelium]

I'm not usually a high HCG guy but that's because I'm one of the "run it the whole time guys".

I'd definitely blast HCG at higher doses. Desensitization of leydig cells is a worry but we have to weight the risks/benefits.

As of now the multi year long cycle has done more to your testicles, leydig cells as well as your entire HPTA than the HCG blast will do. But shriveled testicles and a suppressed HPTA takes correction.

 

[Mycelium]

Anyone tried the Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone? GhRH or something? Supposed to be the equivalent of HCG for the hypothalamus?

 

[Sharkweek]

Just a quick update:

Based on what I was able to order, and the comments in here my plan is:

Continue to let my test levels fall, it has been 7 days since I pinned, and I waited 7 days between that pin and the previous, so test levels are definitely lower now. Skip the test p, I've been reading that the quick drop in test levels there can really suck.

Run hcg at 1000iu/ed from day 10 to day 15, and then 500iu/ed from day 16 to 22. I was only able to get 10,000 iu. My plan to take .5mg of aromasin ED while on the hcg, but I have enough to take 1mg. This gives me roughly 13 days of pretty intense hcg usage based on a 24 hour hcg half-life.

Run clomid/nolva/asin starting the day after last hcg at:

50/40/.25
50/40/.25
25/20/.25
25/20/??
20/??
20/??

Bloodwork done 4-6 weeks after pct, and probably again at 10-12 weeks post pct.

I have enough clomid/nolva to run this pct a second time if necessary, hopefully not. I can not get hmg, I can get more hcg in about a week if necessary. Any thoughts on asin dose during serm usage? Just see how I feel? I know estrogen can be very suppressive, so I was thinking it made sense to error on the side of too much AI vs too little?

Planning to start hcg on wednesday/Thursday this week. I will update the post to let everyone know how it goes, hopefully it can help someone in the future.

 

[scorob777]

Seems like a good plan. Not a great plan, but considering what you've got a good plan.

To make it better I'd get more HCG and be prepared to run it longer if needed, and I'd figure out the if needed part by getting a blood test after two weeks on 1,000 IU/day. If testing shows lower numbers than you want, then keep going with the HCG for as long as it takes. HCG is really cheap, so I don't see any need to have shortcuts on this aspect. Blood testing is also fairly cheap and definitive, so wouldn't cut that short.

The AI during the HCG run seems ok to me, but I'd drop it during the clomid and nolva phase. Also you look like you are mixing up adex and aromasin. Doses for adex would be 1mg, 0.5mg, 0.25mg. Doses for aromasin would be 25mg, 12.5mg, 6.25mg. I'll tell you one thing for sure, if you are thinkin of taking 1mg adex per day several weeks after your last testosterone shot you could be in for some low estrogen hell. For me low E2 feels like I have broken shards of glass in all my joints.

The clomid and nolva phase looks ok - for somebody who just did a 16 week cycle. For coming off multiple years it might take a bit longer. Again consider doing bloodwork during the process to see where test and E2 are so you can make educated decisions on where to go from that point.

 

[Sharkweek]

Thank you for the feedback, you are correct, I did mix up adex/asin. I have adex on the way, not asin.

I just checked to see if I can get any hcg from a different guy i know, we will see. If I can you would advise running 1000IU/day for two weeks, get blood done, and then evaluate? I assume I would be looking for test/free test in those bloods as the ls and fsh are still going to be 0. Is testicle size a decent Indicator that the hcg is working?

You would also guess I may need to run the nolva/clomid longer also? I assume bloodwork 3-4 weeks into the serm usage would indicate that lh and fsh levels have risen, showing that the hot is working; and test levels would show that the testes are working with the lh/fsh my pituatary is releasing?

What would the 100% ideal pct be in your mind?

Thanks again.

 

[Argon Coagulator]

250iu EoD? Wow. I don't know where you got the idea that such a minut dose would do anything to help you in your situation. I recommend you seek a sports doctor and an fertility specialist. You need to be blasting AT LEAST 500iu EOD for 3-6 months if you are going for fertility, whether you are staying on TRT or coming completely off. Don't worry about if HCG keeps you shut down because HCG is your primary driver for sperm production and we're more concerned with fertility and not how much test you produce without HCG (which will likely be low anyway) Your specialist may prescribe 1500-3000iu EOD BECAUSE IT WORKS FOR RESTORATION WHEN YOUR NUTS ARE EXTREMELY SHUT DOWN. I personally just had a successful semen analysis after being on a year, BUT I ran HCG periodically throughout the last year and I ran it at 500iu EOD consistently for about 2 months leading up to my analysis while still being on a TRT dose along with 300mg of Bold Cyp. I ran moderate test, deca, high EQ, orals etc throughout the year, I'm 34 too so no spring chicken - so it can be done.

 

[scorob777]

Thank you for the feedback, you are correct, I did mix up adex/asin. I have adex on the way, not asin.

I just checked to see if I can get any hcg from a different guy i know, we will see. If I can you would advise running 1000IU/day for two weeks, get blood done, and then evaluate? I assume I would be looking for test/free test in those bloods as the ls and fsh are still going to be 0. Is testicle size a decent Indicator that the hcg is working?

You would also guess I may need to run the nolva/clomid longer also? I assume bloodwork 3-4 weeks into the serm usage would indicate that lh and fsh levels have risen, showing that the hot is working; and test levels would show that the testes are working with the lh/fsh my pituatary is releasing?

What would the 100% ideal pct be in your mind?

Thanks again.

To answer your questions, yes testicle size is a good first indicator. Blood testing and seeing levels you are happy with is better still.

On the nolva and clomid, yes potentially for longer. Yes on seeing testosterone, LH, and FSH levels where you want them with blood testing.

As far as ideal PCT, add those things and short of expert medical oversight I think you are doing all you can.

 

[Sharkweek]

To answer your questions, yes testicle size is a good first indicator. Blood testing and seeing levels you are happy with is better still.

On the nolva and clomid, yes potentially for longer. Yes on seeing testosterone, LH, and FSH levels where you want them with blood testing.

As far as ideal PCT, add those things and short of expert medical oversight I think you are doing all you can.

Understood, I was able to get another 5000IU of hcg, so that will be on hand if needed. I have enough nolva and clomid on the way to run (2) 6 week serm pct cycles, as well as 40mg of adex, and I have another 250mg of asin as well.

Planning to run 1000IU hcg for 12-14 days, get bloodwork, then either continue for another week or then begin the nolva/clomid at 50/40 as outlined above. Should have the hcg by thursday.

 

[scorob777]

Good deal. Since you decided not to do the test prop bleed down make sure you wait plenty of time between last shot and starting the nolva and clomid. 500 mg of Test E would take three weeks to bleed down to the point where you should start. It would be fine to be taking the HCG during those three weeks.