PCT for coming off of 4 year cycle

[Mycelium]

My most recent TT was in the 400s at the low point. Needed to raise my dose, which I did. Off TRT and with no AI at that TT I was limp and found myself looking at the houses and out the windows watching porn standing there with my limp dick in my hand. Now same TT but lower estrogen from AI and he works fine. libido was low, energy was low and cumming was kinda a challenge.

Upped from 80mg wk test cyp to 100 mg wk with a slight increase in AI and I feel the difference.

Not that you NEED to remember me but I'm on heavy doses of epilepsy medications so my experiences will be a little different. I have more aromatase than most and aromatize very heavily.

Even at a TT of 1500, free T double the range and E double the range I didnt have the same sex drive number of erections as I do off medications. 200mg wk test cyp and I believe 1.5 or 2 mg adex. Pre-TRT I jerked off every time I showered and had boners all day even having seizures. Have since puberty and before the epilepsy.

 

[Argon Coagulator]

Thanks for the reply, I did look him up, lots of good info. I have 13,000 IU of hcg left, after running 1000iu/day for the past two. I will see about getting more, but unsure if I will be able to in a timely manner. It seems you would suggest maybe taking that at 500iu for the next 26 days, as opposed to 1000cc first the next 13 days?

Would running the first 5000iu at 1000iu/day, and going to 500iu/day for the following 20 days be a better plan in your opinion? I preloaded the first 5000iu hcg into slin pins with 1000IU in each.There seems to be a huge variation in thoughts/protocols with hcg administration. I am somewhat uncomfortable with going eod, because of the short half life. I'm unsure if it's the same with hcg, but I always try to keep blood levels of androgens at as stable a level as possible.

Yes, being on longer beats being on a higher dose for a shorter time when it comes to HCG. So long as you have enough to sustain 500iu EOD. It's fine that you started off at 1000iu/day, but now think about stretching the rest out to last longer at 500iu EOD- Dr. Rand does say you can do 250iu ED but that HCG has a long enough half life that ED pinning is not necessary and not necessarily more effective than EOD. He says you can also do 500iu ED as a maximum if you want to take a more aggressive approach. Starting high as you did and tapering down to no less than 500iu EOD is also not a bad plan.

I'm not a physician, but I try to relay info I learn from them as accurately and effectively as possible. I do know that specialists who treat hypogonadal men will typically have them on HCG and/or clomid for 3-6 months and up to a year to determine if natural testosterone production is a possibility, before prescribing TRT. Coming off a 4 year cycle likely has you in a temporary (or possibly permanent) secondary hypogonadal state, so I would suggest you use HCG for atleast 6-8 weeks total before trying to come off completely, even if most of that time is after you are off gear. HCG is arguably more effective when you are off all gear anyhow.

There are alot of opinions and protcols for HCG use, but I tend to favor the plans put together by Medical Sports Doctors like Dr. Rand or Dr. O'Connor as they have peer reviewed protocols, patient anecdotal experience as well as an extensive medical background. They both favor HCG and AI for PCT and warn against clomid as it can cause severe depression in many men.

EDIT: the reason I trust Dr. Rand and Dr. O'Connor is because they are former gear users and bodybuilders/powerlifters themselves and the vast majority of their patients are gear users as well. They are among the few doctors who have personal experience and can sympathize and relate to bodybuilders and athletes in your situation. They also offer free advice on YouTube and I believe they truly have our best interest at heart compared to a typical physician.

 

[PapaNoel]

Yes, being on longer beats being on a higher dose for a shorter time when it comes to HCG.

In a vacuum, yes it does and I agree with you, longer is better..... But when you factor in the heavily degradation of HCG starting second you reconstitute, i'm not so sure that holds true.
Some brands I've bought even state to inject the whole vial at once, i.e 5000 iu HCG.

Also what you say is true, the minimum treatment time is 3 months but standard is 6-12 months treatment with HCG/Clomid/Proviron etc before even considering TRT.
Not to mention it takes most of us at least 3-4 months to recover POST finishing PCT and I can only imagine what a 4 year cycle would mean.

 

[PapaNoel]

I am somewhat uncomfortable with going eod, because of the short half life. I'm unsure if it's the same with hcg, but I always try to keep blood levels of androgens at as stable a level as possible.

Long as you do it intramuscular and not sub-q the half life is about 33 hours with detection up to just under 3 days. EOD is fine in a "technical sense" but ED certainly doesn't hurt either.
Just wanted to remove your uncomfortability

 

[Argon Coagulator]

In a vacuum, yes it does and I agree with you, longer is better..... But when you factor in the heavily degradation of HCG starting second you reconstitute, i'm not so sure that holds true.
Some brands I've bought even state to inject the whole vial at once, i.e 5000 iu HCG.

Also what you say is true, the minimum treatment time is 3 months but standard is 6-12 months treatment with HCG/Clomid/Proviron etc before even considering TRT.
Not to mention it takes most of us at least 3-4 months to recover POST finishing PCT and I can only imagine what a 4 year cycle would mean.

Good point. I've read when you refrigerate it should stay decently potent for up to 30 days. When running 500iu EOD a 5000iu bottle is only 10 shots worth so it's only going to last 3 weeks. Sometimes I bump it up to 750iu toward the end of the bottle. My on cycle semen anaylsis would suggest it's an effective protocol.

 

[Mycelium]

I've preloaded 20k iu of HCG and frooze them. I have personally not noticed any loss in potency. I even roll the vial and not shake them.

I pull a small air bubble in and freeze them needle up.

My scripts over lapped a little and also got some UGL. An old pharma filled slin-pin worked after a year

 

[Sharkweek]

Just an update:

4th hcg pin is in. Testicles have definitely been sore on and off for probably 5-6 days at this point. It seems like they are gaining some size/feeling more firm. Seems like a good sign so far; I know it isnt the end all be all of signs, but atleast something seems to be happening. Planning to run out the 5th day at 1000IU, and then switch to 500iu ed thereafter for the final 10,000 iu/20 days.

Would any of you suggest running any serms while on the hcg, or I assume the pituatary will respond much faster than the testes, so not needed?

Test levels are definitely down, no ed or libido issues, but appetite and ambition are kind of low. Trying to make a couple weight gainer shakes throughout the day to keep the muscle on and the metabolism from going in the trash.

 

[Mycelium]

I wouldn't run anything else. Nothing. Not even GNC type OTC.

Sounds like the engines are starting up tho!!!!!

 

[Mycelium]

for longer storage basically just load the pins at the dose you want and freeze them. Takes about 5-10 minutes to thaw out. Preloaded HCG is from a very experienced member here. Possibly 3Js sticky thread.

 

[Sharkweek]

Another quick update:

Dropped HCG to 500Iu/day, testicles continue to gain size, soreness has mostly subsided. I have been pinning the hcg subcutaneously, considering switching to IM based on Santa666's advice above. I found this study that doesnt seem to show as huge correlation, but just looking for any thoughts? I'm relatively lean, I think I could get an IM shot using my existing 1/2 slin pins if I did my shoulder. Any thoughts one way or another?

https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/18/11/2294/644343

 

[PapaNoel]

Another quick update:

Dropped HCG to 500Iu/day, testicles continue to gain size, soreness has mostly subsided. I have been pinning the hcg subcutaneously, considering switching to IM based on Santa666's advice above. I found this study that doesnt seem to show as huge correlation, but just looking for any thoughts? I'm relatively lean, I think I could get an IM shot using my existing 1/2 slin pins if I did my shoulder. Any thoughts one way or another?

https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/18/11/2294/644343

I've done research on the topic (i've done what you're doing now, long story short, i recovered 100% from blood work but I didn't recover because my libido was shit and i felt like shit...In hindsight, i was treating a gyno lump with nolva and nolva side effects was the cause which proviron fixed btw, anyhow....).

There's been several clinical trials on the subject, the conflicts arise from the fact some have been skewed because they did glute injections and not using sufficient needles sizes for all people in the trials, meaning some would be sub-q injections and not IM.
Total serum levels and half life is better with IM, there's no benefit to inject HCG sub-q.
Then if you also read manual/description of whatever HCG you buy, it will explicitly say to inject intramuscular, so that alone should be enough evidence

I also do what you were thinking, slin pins in shoulders, pain free and guaranteed to hit intramuscular unless you're a fat fuck lol.
You could also go 22g/23g(depending on body fat) in glutes. Or 25g in quads...but i recommend delt injections

Edit. I actually took the time to read your link and article and it confirms exactly what i said

"RESULTS: Examination of the hCG plasma concentration time curve showed the area under the curve (AUC) and maximum concentration (Cmax) of hCG to be significantly higher after i.m. injection than after s.c. injection in both the obese and non obese groups. However, the AUC and Cmax values in obese women were significantly lower than in non obese women"

Then if you continue reading:
"Generally, hCG injections are given intramuscularly, and are directed toward the buttock or the deltoid muscles. However, in obese patients the needle may not be long enough to reach the muscle layer, especially when the subcutaneous fat is thick, and consequently the intended i.m. injection becomes a s.c. injection."

 

[Sharkweek]

I've done research on the topic (i've done what you're doing now, long story short, i recovered 100% from blood work but I didn't recover because my libido was shit and i felt like shit...In hindsight, i was treating a gyno lump with nolva and nolva side effects was the cause which proviron fixed btw, anyhow....).

There's been several clinical trials on the subject, the conflicts arise from the fact some have been skewed because they did glute injections and not using sufficient needles sizes for all people in the trials, meaning some would be sub-q injections and not IM.
Total serum levels and half life is better with IM, there's no benefit to inject HCG sub-q.
Then if you also read manual/description of whatever HCG you buy, it will explicitly say to inject intramuscular, so that alone should be enough evidence

I also do what you were thinking, slin pins in shoulders, pain free and guaranteed to hit intramuscular unless you're a fat fuck lol.
You could also go 22g/23g(depending on body fat) in glutes. Or 25g in quads...but i recommend delt injections

Edit. I actually took the time to read your link and article and it confirms exactly what i said

"RESULTS: Examination of the hCG plasma concentration time curve showed the area under the curve (AUC) and maximum concentration (Cmax) of hCG to be significantly higher after i.m. injection than after s.c. injection in both the obese and non obese groups. However, the AUC and Cmax values in obese women were significantly lower than in non obese women"

Then if you continue reading:
"Generally, hCG injections are given intramuscularly, and are directed toward the buttock or the deltoid muscles. However, in obese patients the needle may not be long enough to reach the muscle layer, especially when the subcutaneous fat is thick, and consequently the intended i.m. injection becomes a s.c. injection."

That's going to be my plan going forward. Thanks for the feedback; I'm mostly ok with TRT as long as I can be off for a year or two here to have child. I have a few 25ga 1" pins left that I used for test injections, I may just rotate between shoulders and quads.

Thanks again.

 

[PapaNoel]

Just happy to help bro, hope it all works out for you

 

[IMT staff]

You don't have to do HCG IM you just have to do more of it if you don't. People don't take enough HCG when doing a HPTA restart. You need at least 1,000 IU 3-4 x per week. At least.

With your history, you will probably need 1500 IU QOD for 3-5 months. Otherwise, SERM treatment will just fail.

Also adding IPAM/CJC really, really helps. For a multitude of reasons.

 

[Sharkweek]

You don't have to do HCG IM you just have to do more of it if you don't. People don't take enough HCG when doing a HPTA restart. You need at least 1,000 IU 3-4 x per week. At least.

With your history, you will probably need 1500 IU QOD for 3-5 months. Otherwise, SERM treatment will just fail.

Also adding IPAM/CJC really, really helps. For a multitude of reasons.

Hit the shoulder IM today, no issues, so might as well choose the more efficient route. Can you expand on the IPAM/CJC? I havent heard of it, what are the benefits? I assume you mean EOD?

Side note: balls keep growing, more sore today than previous couple days. Noticeably larger than a week ago. Planning to get bloodwork done in 8 days, which would be after 5 days at 1000iu, and 8 days at 500iu/day. Just looking to see if test production is happening at that point.

 

[IMT staff]

Yea sorry it is habit, QOD stands for every other day.

IPAM/CJC is a peptide that stimulates GH production. So it helps to spur T production, it helps binding efficiency of T and the most important part IMHO is it makes you feel pretty good so you don't notice the T adjustment as much, and it helps you hold onto your muscle mass.

It is fine to get lab work, just saying I have been at this for a decade now and have worked with thousands of guys over the years on HPTA restarts. So just wanted to give you a heads up to not short change the HCG, it is the most important part.

https://increasemyt.com/hpta-restart/

Cool screename, I am actually a shark conservationist and dive with sharks quite often. (make sure you watch in HD)

 

[Argon Coagulator]

I've preloaded 20k iu of HCG and frooze them. I have personally not noticed any loss in potency. I even roll the vial and not shake them.

I pull a small air bubble in and freeze them needle up.

My scripts over lapped a little and also got some UGL. An old pharma filled slin-pin worked after a year

Cryogenics, nice! Lol

 

[Argon Coagulator]

Just an update:

4th hcg pin is in. Testicles have definitely been sore on and off for probably 5-6 days at this point. It seems like they are gaining some size/feeling more firm. Seems like a good sign so far; I know it isnt the end all be all of signs, but atleast something seems to be happening. Planning to run out the 5th day at 1000IU, and then switch to 500iu ed thereafter for the final 10,000 iu/20 days.

Would any of you suggest running any serms while on the hcg, or I assume the pituatary will respond much faster than the testes, so not needed?

Test levels are definitely down, no ed or libido issues, but appetite and ambition are kind of low. Trying to make a couple weight gainer shakes throughout the day to keep the muscle on and the metabolism from going in the trash.

Start the SERMS about two days after your last shot of HCG. Your plan looks pretty decent so far. It could take 3+ months before you start feeling "normal". If your levels still feel low by then, I'd see a specialist- they may put you on a HPTA kickstart protocol or TRT.

 

[Mycelium]

If it dont work insert IMT. I can even post/pm you links directly to the forms for them. Their doctor knows more about my epilepsy meds effecting my endocrine system than my neurologist (old one), endocrinologist and my general doctor.

 

[Sharkweek]

Yea sorry it is habit, QOD stands for every other day.

IPAM/CJC is a peptide that stimulates GH production. So it helps to spur T production, it helps binding efficiency of T and the most important part IMHO is it makes you feel pretty good so you don't notice the T adjustment as much, and it helps you hold onto your muscle mass.

It is fine to get lab work, just saying I have been at this for a decade now and have worked with thousands of guys over the years on HPTA restarts. So just wanted to give you a heads up to not short change the HCG, it is the most important part.

https://increasemyt.com/hpta-restart/

Cool screename, I am actually a shark conservationist and dive with sharks quite often. (make sure you watch in HD)

Would just straight up hgh be more effective at this? I was considering running 2-4iu/day to see if it would help, but was a little bit concerned with just having so much all going on at once.

As far as interpreting the bloodwork, I assume if my testes are producing testosterone after the hcg that I should be good to move onto the SERM stage of pct? What is the advantage of continuing to use essentially fake LH instead of getting my body to make it's own LH and fsh via the nolva and clomid? Thanks for the help.

My wife and I are hoping to go scuba diving this fall if she is not pregnant, we have been offshore snorkeling and loved it.

Start the SERMS about two days after your last shot of HCG. Your plan looks pretty decent so far. It could take 3+ months before you start feeling "normal". If your levels still feel low by then, I'd see a specialist- they may put you on a HPTA kickstart protocol or TRT.

Roger that, I am continuing to run low dose nolva through the hcg, as I was during the end of my cycle due to the gyno concerns, but I agree with starting the serms 2-3 days post hcg.