post cycle therapy
- Thread starter TRAPS21
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invizible84
New member
Creatine , Tribulus and ZMA
Nelson Montana
Community Veteran, Bodybuilding Author
Not to be the contrarian, but hey...it's what I do.
Nolva is for gyno. If you haven't gotten it yet, why take it now? It'll just cause a backlash of estrogen when you stop.
Tribulus is pretty much worthless if you're supressed. It MAY increase LH a bit, but in a supressed state the LH elevation would lead to more e prouction than T production.
Creatine: Okay. It'll replace some of the water retention .
ZMA: Why pay twenty dollars for zinc? Go to vitamin shoppe and get it for five bucks. "Post-Cycle" has as much zinc as ZMA plus 12 other ingredients and it's cheaper.
This is an example of "parroted" information. It's nobody's fault. The same info gets passed on and on and gets repeated and repeated and before long it seems like common knowledge -- but it's wrong. I'm just surprised nobody recommended glutamine -- which many people will swear works great even though it has proven to do absolutely nothing.
Nolva is for gyno. If you haven't gotten it yet, why take it now? It'll just cause a backlash of estrogen when you stop.
Tribulus is pretty much worthless if you're supressed. It MAY increase LH a bit, but in a supressed state the LH elevation would lead to more e prouction than T production.
Creatine: Okay. It'll replace some of the water retention .
ZMA: Why pay twenty dollars for zinc? Go to vitamin shoppe and get it for five bucks. "Post-Cycle" has as much zinc as ZMA plus 12 other ingredients and it's cheaper.
This is an example of "parroted" information. It's nobody's fault. The same info gets passed on and on and gets repeated and repeated and before long it seems like common knowledge -- but it's wrong. I'm just surprised nobody recommended glutamine -- which many people will swear works great even though it has proven to do absolutely nothing.
China_Wall
New member
Yeah, depending on your dosages HCG is a must for post cycle therapy (pct). I wait a couple of weeks after my last injection then I begin HCG at 500iu eod for 2wks. You can run the nolva at 20mg ed.
cheers from China
cheers from China
Nelson Montana
Community Veteran, Bodybuilding Author
Mudge said:
Actually there are very few studies showing that. This is another case of following parroted information.
Every study conducted with Clomid has been flawed in one way or another. Either the subjects were old or chronic steroid users or the therepy took months -- after which the patient would have recovered anyway. There are also an equal amount of studies showing it nothing, or made the condition worse. It does increase SHBG after all.
I've never known a doctor to prescribe Nolvadex to a man -- very, very rare. Not to mention that both Clomid and Nolvadex have serious side effects, contrary to popular belief. But don't let that stop you from taking it if it makes you feel better.
Better choices?: Well, HCG is not really post cycle therapy (pct). It's mostly cosmetic. Proviron can help ease the crash as can a small amount of a-dex, even though some people say not to use it PC (I see no reason why though). The ingredients in Unleashed and "Post-Cycle" are designed to help with the aftermath of PC -- libido, erectle dysfunction, increased SHBG, liver toxicity etc. But mainly time (and sleep)is all that will repair a supressed HPTA, like it or not.
jcp2
Community Veteran
Since i am always up for new ideas, i am running a smaller dose of clomid than i normally run, unleashed and post cycle. I will let you guys no how it turns out as it should be here today. I am always up for new ideas. This cycle was a bust for me anyway, so i am not worried about losing any of my nonexistand gains.
Mudge
Community Veteran
New ideas are great, as long as there is something behind it, after all we have seen some evolution from the old way of doing things and it looks good to me.
HCG is a must for me also, either in the cycle or after my last shot for 2 weeks, whatever works whenever you have your hands on it. If run after your last gear shot and run for 2-3 weeks, start post cycle therapy (pct) afterwards.
FWIW I have read its the time on post cycle therapy (pct) being more important than dose used.
HCG is a must for me also, either in the cycle or after my last shot for 2 weeks, whatever works whenever you have your hands on it. If run after your last gear shot and run for 2-3 weeks, start post cycle therapy (pct) afterwards.
FWIW I have read its the time on post cycle therapy (pct) being more important than dose used.
Nelson Montana
Community Veteran, Bodybuilding Author
Golgo13 said:Man. You might as well have thrown in there that Arnold is actually a woman...
Just about every post cycle therapy (pct) practice I have heard of you don't approve. Could you post YOUR perscribed post cycle therapy (pct) methods?
I just did.
As far as not approving of accepted methods, that's because they suck and I'll say so. I wish they didn't , but they do. They're mostly conjecture, guesswork and wishful thinking. It's also why you have guys still shut down months after post cycle therapy (pct). If the post cycle therapy (pct) was so great, this wouldn't happen.
The best approach is an ounce of prevention instead of a pound of cure. Avoid the most suppressive compounds. That means deca, fina and high dosages of test. Make the most of each cycle buy training hard and eating everything in sight and you'll need a lot less gear. But of course, too many people expect the gear to do everything. Then they take a slew of drugs to recover. Then they bridge. Then they go back on. Then, much like Flex Wheeler admitted, they realized they can't train without drugs. It's too hard.
Learn how to build muscle -- THEN use steroids to enhance it. Don't take boatloads of drugs then ask; "what'll I do now?"
Workhorse
New member
What about this??Nelson Montana said:
Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn
Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course
Now, on to the article:
Introduction
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
References:
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7
2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
