Trevdog said:
What's funny? I don't feel compelled to "prove" my point, although I would put a bit of effort into it if it wouldn't take forever, and then everyone who desperately wants to believe that proviron enhances test cycles despite a total absence of any evidence supporting that notion would just ignore it anyway.
Where exactly did you (or anyone else) provide references proving that proviron enhances test cycles?
You want me to post a study proving a negative? I can't do that. Maybe you can post a study proving that proviron: 1. enhances the effects of test; and/or 2. Acts as an anti estrogen. No such studies exist.
I did run a quick search and found a post made by big cat that might interest you regarding the "bang for your buck" theory. Here it is
"The problem with reducing SHBG to increase test is that it is a double-edged sword. More free test, but also a higher excretion rate of test. Since test has rather low stability (comparative) at the AR, this would not lead to a functional increase in testosterone. With the possible exception of very high doses, when increased estradiol leads to upregulation of SHBG. Then possible intervention may pay off."
It appears in this thread:
http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Fo...66&perpage=15&highlight=proviron&pagenumber=3
I realize that you perceived an anti estrogenic effect when you ran proviron with test. I'm not going to tell you that the effect wasn't real, although I will suggest that factors other than actual effecacy of proviron as an anti estrogen might have been at work, including the placebo effect. On the other hand, I will again strongly discourage anyone from relying on proviron alone to deal with estrogen, since those that do may find themselves growing man boobs.
Placebo is a mental effect. Gyno is a physical growth. The 2 have nothing to do with each other.
Here are some various studies on proviron that may interest you. Just do a medline search with the subject title and you will see the studies.
1. Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids: comparison of the binding to the androgen receptors in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to sex hormone-binding globulin.Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6.
2. APMIS. 2000 Dec;108(12):838-46.
3. (Xu X, et al. "The effects of androgens on the regulation of lipolysis in adipose precursor cells." Endocrinology 1990 Feb;126(2):1229 ).
4. J Anim Sci. 1992 Nov;70(11):3381-90.
5. Am J Physiol. 1998 Jun;274(6 Pt 1):C1645-52.
6. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8.
7. J Appl. Physiol.94 1153-61 2003
8. Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.
9. [Androgen substitution in the andrological disease picture] Andrologia. 1983 May-Jun;15(3):283-6. German.
10. The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study). Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7.
Its also funny that you quoted something that Big Cat had to say on the subject. Its funny because what is written below was written by Big Cat himself.
Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.
The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.
Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.
Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.
