Question for Nelson-ephedra

[TxLonghorn]

Im banning tX for flaming

Please hand over your mod rights to me

No, no flaming, just commenting on comments that I found odd.

Actually, I'm not a fan of ephedrine either, but I know enough about it to know it does work and is very effective.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Oh my gosh, you are saying that if I stop taking ephedrine, that stops working? Next you'll tell me that diets will stop working if I stop following them.

I'll file this under the 'No shit, Sherlock' file.

Okay, I admit that was an oversimplification which came off as a "Yogi-ism". What I meant was, sooner or later you have to stop taking the epedhra and that's when the weight comes right back on. Fat lost through diet and exercise tends to stay off as long as you diet and exercise, the difference being exercise is healthy and the use of stimulents is not.

Yeah, Red Bull has caffeine and in the long run isn't the best thing to take if you want to burn fat, but I'm at a good bf% now and I just use it on occassion when I need an extra boost.

 

[omnibus]

Ephedra is also indiscriminate as to what cells it attacks. (There's a cool explanation for this but it's late and I'm not going to get into itynow. Let the flaming begin)

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1993 Feb;17

Safety and efficacy of long-term treatment with ephedrine, caffeine and an ephedrine/caffeine mixture.

Toubro S, Astrup AV, Breum L, Quaade F.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Fredriksberg, Copenhagen, Denmark.

In a randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind study, 180 obese patients were treated by diet (4.2 MJ/day) and either an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20mg/200mg), ephedrine (20mg), caffeine (200mg) or placebo 3 times a day for 24 weeks. 141 patients completed this part of the study. All medication was stopped between week 24-26 in order to catch any withdrawal symptoms. From week 26 to 50, 99 patients completed treatment with the ephedrine/caffeine compound in an open trial design, resulting in a statistically significant (p = 0.02) weight loss of 1.1kg. In another randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled 8 week study on obese subjects we found the mentioned compound showed lean body mass conserving properties. We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties. The side effects are minor and transient and no withdrawal symptoms have been found.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1993 Feb;17

Safety and efficacy of long-term treatment with ephedrine, caffeine and an ephedrine/caffeine mixture.

Toubro S, Astrup AV, Breum L, Quaade F.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Fredriksberg, Copenhagen, Denmark.

In a randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind study, 180 obese patients were treated by diet (4.2 MJ/day) and either an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20mg/200mg), ephedrine (20mg), caffeine (200mg) or placebo 3 times a day for 24 weeks. 141 patients completed this part of the study. All medication was stopped between week 24-26 in order to catch any withdrawal symptoms. From week 26 to 50, 99 patients completed treatment with the ephedrine/caffeine compound in an open trial design, resulting in a statistically significant (p = 0.02) weight loss of 1.1kg. In another randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled 8 week study on obese subjects we
found the mentioned compound showed lean body mass conserving properties. We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties. The side effects are minor and transient and no withdrawal symptoms have been found.

I don't know who conducted that study (Twin Labs?) but the conclusions are highly suspect.

For one thing, ephedra does not distinguish between fat cells and other cells simply for the fact that it stimulates alpha 1, beta 1 and 2 adrenergic receptors which are directly related to cardiovascular activity which is why ephedrine can potentially cause a heart attack or in the least effect heart health. Syneprine on the other hand does not cross the brain barrier and does not attach to beta 1, 2 and alpha 1. Instead it hits the beta 3 receptors which affect only brown adipose tissue. 7keto, thyroid extract, selenium, kelp and tyrosine do not effect any of the beta receptors but have a direct effect on the conversion of T4 into the active T3 which uses body fat for energy and warmth.

Since ephedra affects the heart and central nervous system it relases adrenaline, which of course increases energy and lowers appitite. (The reasons why epedra 'works" -- temporarily). It's also catabolic.

This can go on forever. Bottom line: ephedra hasn't panned out very well. If you wan to use it, be my guest. Some people like the buzz. personally, i hate the feeling. But as I've maintained all along, the smartest, healthiest and most effective way to burn fat is through the thyroid, (the way nature intended fat to be burned) not the nervous system.

 

[TxLonghorn]

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1993 Feb;17

Safety and efficacy of long-term treatment with ephedrine, caffeine and an ephedrine/caffeine mixture.

Toubro S, Astrup AV, Breum L, Quaade F.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Fredriksberg, Copenhagen, Denmark.

In a randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind study, 180 obese patients were treated by diet (4.2 MJ/day) and either an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20mg/200mg), ephedrine (20mg), caffeine (200mg) or placebo 3 times a day for 24 weeks.

Lol @ nelson - double blind placebo controlled studies that get published aren't gonna fool him!

I'm also glad nelson didn't fall for the anecdotal evidence that ephedrine/caffeine works either.

 

[prot]

ephedra and pseudephedrine are both negative for the prostate and mr winkie. Ephedrine also causes heart rate speedup and IS dangerous. I used to take it before workouts but felt so bad afterward (wiped) I quit. I used to use it straight and it helps strength..thats why its banned, and took it in Ripped Fuel.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Lol @ nelson - double blind placebo controlled studies that get published aren't gonna fool him!

I'm also glad nelson didn't fall for the anecdotal evidence that ephedrine/caffeine works either.

So you accept the conclusions of every study conducted regardless of who did it and who they're affiliated with?

Wow.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Wait a minute. That study was conducted eleven years ago by a veterinarian school in Denmark!? OH YEAH, that's GOT to be accurate! How dare I question such staunch evidence? Johns Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic always go first to veterinarian school in denmark to check on the accuracy of an study. You got me.

 

[TxLonghorn]

So you accept the conclusions of every study conducted regardless of who did it and who they're affiliated with?

Wow.

Not at all, however this is just one study of many, all of which replicate the same thing, that ephedrine/caffeine work. It doesn't matter how long ago it was done or who did it if everybody else can continually replicate the results. What is suspect is if they were the only ones that could come up with these kinds of results.

I just find it funny that you refuse to listen to anything or anybody once you've made your mind up. Kind of like saying that there's no way they can build something that flies out of metal because it's too heavy and pointing to all the reasons why you can't do it. Meanwhile, a 747 is flying over your head.

I just can't believe it's so hard for anybody to accept the fact that ephedrine/caffeine works and burns fat while sparing muscle. Even after you can parade out reports that show it and people that have experienced it.

 

[Golgo13]

Why is Nelson posting under 2 accounts? Is one Nelson a fake?

When this thread started I avioded it because I thought the n00b Nelson was just some jerk-off having a good time.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Not at all, however this is just one study of many, all of which replicate the same thing, that ephedrine/caffeine work. It doesn't matter how long ago it was done or who did it if everybody else can continually replicate the results. What is suspect is if they were the only ones that could come up with these kinds of results.

I just find it funny that you refuse to listen to anything or anybody once you've made your mind up. Kind of like saying that there's no way they can build something that flies out of metal because it's too heavy and pointing to all the reasons why you can't do it. Meanwhile, a 747 is flying over your head.

I just can't believe it's so hard for anybody to accept the fact that ephedrine/caffeine works and burns fat while sparing muscle. Even after you can parade out reports that show it and people that have experienced it.

It isn't like that at all. As a matter of fact I can turn it around and say your reasoning is like when people argued with Galilao because EVERYBODY knew the sun revolved around the earth.

For every report that comes down the pike there's another one that contradicts it. I choose to asses the information from all angles, analyze it, challange it, inspect its flaws, and come to a calculated conclusion based on what my own sense of logic, reasoning, experience and personal evidence tells me. Some people like to believe whatever is cut and pasted from something on the internet. To each his own.

 

[jumpback]

What I meant was, sooner or later you have to stop taking the epedhra and that's when the weight comes right back on. Fat lost through diet and exercise tends to stay off as long as you diet and exercise, the difference being exercise is healthy and the use of stimulents is not.

Quick question...Nelson, if a person looses weight (fat) via ephedrine) is it possible for them to keep the weight off as long as they keep their diet in check after cessation of the e?...

I've read where u say that the weight will come back once the person stops taking the ephedra...Do u mean it will come back no matter what the persons diet is like, or only if they return to eating like pigs?...


BTW, I have to agree with Nelson and the other bros...I can see where the studies are showing effectiveness regarding ephedrine,yet, I can see where Nelson is correct in advocating the dangers associated with using it...To begin with, Nelson was defending the issue that it didn't work, now I'm sensing that he is more against ephedrine because of its dangers...


JumpBack

 

[TxLonghorn]

It isn't like that at all. As a matter of fact I can turn it around and say your reasoning is like when people argued with Galilao because EVERYBODY knew the sun revolved around the earth.

For every report that comes down the pike there's another one that contradicts it. I choose to asses the information from all angles, analyze it, challange it, inspect its flaws, and come to a calculated conclusion based on what my own sense of logic, reasoning, experience and personal evidence tells me. Some people like to believe whatever is cut and pasted from something on the internet. To each his own.

It's not like galileo at all and you know that. Again, you are just trying to muddy up the water and change the subject. These are actual studies and results, not theories that can't be supported. They have been proven time and time again. There aren't tons of reports that contradict the effectiveness of ephedrine/caffeine and you know that, too.

I agree that you cannot just accept things as they are presented, however the only thing you seem to agree with is yourself, regardless of whatever proof is against it. This is dangerous because there are people out there who either don't have the time to do their own research or don't have the ability to. You act like what you say is the gospel truth when in reality the only thing you've said that in any way corresponds with reality is that ephedrine is possibly dangerous.

It must be difficult to carry the burden of always being right and knowing everything, most men grow out of that stage by the time they are 18 years old.

And jumpback, I appreciate you trying to nudge nelson in the right direction, but it won't work. He isn't saying ephedrine is dangerous so don't use it, he's saying it's dangerous AND it won't work so don't use it.

Re: Golgo's question about the 2 nelson accounts
They are both nelson's accounts, apparently one is his laptop and the other is his desktop (at least that's how it was explained to me) and we agreed to let him have two accounts.

 

[brooklynheight]

Why is Nelson posting under 2 accounts? Is one Nelson a fake?

When this thread started I avioded it because I thought the n00b Nelson was just some jerk-off having a good time.

how many posts do you have?

and how many do I have..


but your avatar is better than mine

 

[jumpback]

And jumpback, I appreciate you trying to nudge nelson in the right direction, but it won't work. He isn't saying ephedrine is dangerous so don't use it, he's saying it's dangerous AND it won't work so don't use it.

Tx,

I have to say that I have personally seen ephedrine work for fat loss...And, the person that I'm referring too is still at their targeted weight after cessation of the e...This is 5 years later too!...Also the person doesn't lift at all...They keep their diet in check...So, I do have to disagree that when u quit taking it, the weight comes back...It will only come back, from what I've seen, if the person doesn't continue to eat properly...

I wasn't sure what Nelson's view was on this...Like I said earlier, he went from taking the defense that the stuff didn't work, then defending the fact of it's dangers...I was curious to see if he had changed his mind about it not working...

If I might add this bro, I'm really not the type to give up on a person...I've read a few post by Nelson and with his age, I do believe he has good info...Sure, he makes mistakes and his personality may be a bit pushy, but I think that's just Nelson...However, I don't know Mr. Montana well enough to really give a personal opioion...I just feel he deserves respect to an extint...I have to admit too, that I have heard other people say what he is saying about the effectiveness of it..They also make the same claim about the weight coming back...I think tho, in these cases, there might be an underlying problem with the individual, and/or their diet wasn't in check...I don't know, but I feel like Nelson is making us think a little deeper about this product...If we continue with this discussion, with respect for ALL participants we might just be able to come to some kind of mutual agreement...And, u never know, someone may read these post and be able to make an educated responsible decision on it's use...Anyway, sorry for the long post...Peace!


JumpBack

 

[jcp2]

OK i am going to give my opinion on this whole thing, ephedrine i thought, at least from what i belieive i have read, has always had minimul thermogenic action, but definately some. The thermogenic properties go away after a few weeks on it and the reason people continue to lose weight is the appetitie surpression. Does ephedrine work, yes, i have no clue if zip does what nelson says, but if it can keep thryoid output at a normal rate when dieting it should be a great supp. Would i prefer to lose weight without stims, without a doubt. Is ephedrine safe, i would think for the most part. I would also think ephedrine is not very safe for long term use, but i don't kow that, and i am sure thier are tons of people addicted to the stuff on the boards. Do i use ephedrine, yup.

 

[sifu]

Not at all, however this is just one study of many, all of which replicate the same thing, that ephedrine/caffeine work. It doesn't matter how long ago it was done or who did it if everybody else can continually replicate the results. What is suspect is if they were the only ones that could come up with these kinds of results.

I just find it funny that you refuse to listen to anything or anybody once you've made your mind up. Kind of like saying that there's no way they can build something that flies out of metal because it's too heavy and pointing to all the reasons why you can't do it. Meanwhile, a 747 is flying over your head.

I just can't believe it's so hard for anybody to accept the fact that ephedrine/caffeine works and burns fat while sparing muscle. Even after you can parade out reports that show it and people that have experienced it.

We have all been saying that. If he doesn't sell it, then it must suck.

 

[jcp2]

We have all been saying that. If he doesn't sell it, then it must suck.

Weather you like nelson or not, or agree with his sales pitch, he has been saying the same thing for years, especially regarding the ingredients in unleashed and post cycle. Long, long before he had any interest in it, i beleive he used to send people to BAC to order some of the ingredients, but i could be wrong.

 

[sifu]

It has nothing to do with not liking the guy. It has to do with him never admitting when he is wrong. Hell he would probably argue with SWALE over HRT.

 

[jcp2]

It has nothing to do with not liking the guy. It has to do with him never admitting when he is wrong. Hell he would probably argue with SWALE over HRT.

That may be true, lol. And their is nothing earth shattering about HRT.