Question for Nelson-ephedra

[rubberduckyo]

Ephedra does not raise body temperature enough to burn fat. (Unless you use ridiculous dosages) It simply decreases appitite. The body reacts by slowing the metabolism in an effort to maintain homeostasis. As soon as you stop using it, all the fat come back -- plus MORE, since the metabolism is sluggish after adapting to the stimulation.

The only way to burn fat steadily and somewhat permantently is to raise basil temp via thyroid stimulation. This is why T 3 is so effective. But of course using T 3 has the same backlash as using stimulents in that the body deveolps a tolerence to the stimulation and then fat loss plateus. Of course T3 is also suppressive which is why no one ever keeps the fat from T3 use for very long. The only sensible way to burn fat sensibly and consistantly is though non supressive thyroid elevation which is what ZIP is designed to do. The problem with ZIP is, it isn't the type of supplement that's going to make people say; "WOW THIS STUFF KICKS ASS!!!" But it works, steadily and effectively.

I've yet to see or hear, even anecdotally of the fat coming back moreso after cessation of ephedrine. However, if you eat too much and exercise too little, reality will settle in pretty quickly.

i lost almost 40 pounds using epherdra 2 years ago, and gained it all back blus 18 more in 6 months...of course, my diet turned to shit during those six months and I wasnt training nearly as often.

Oh my gosh, you are saying that if I stop taking ephedrine, that stops working? Next you'll tell me that diets will stop working if I stop following them.

I'll file this under the 'No shit, Sherlock' file.

I But as I've maintained all along, the smartest, healthiest and most effective way to burn fat is through the thyroid, (the way nature intended fat to be burned) not the nervous system.

I just find it funny that you refuse to listen to anything or anybody once you've made your mind up. Kind of like saying that there's no way they can build something that flies out of metal because it's too heavy and pointing to all the reasons why you can't do it. Meanwhile, a 747 is flying over your head.

I'm skipping forward now because let's face it.....mindless bickering is boring.

Can we not get back to the topic on hand instead of the little cases of PLOM disease(poor little ol me).

No offense Nelson, I think you are a good contributer to the boards because whether or not people agree with you you do get people to think at least which is most important. Unfortunatley or fortunatley this means that people are going to debate and call you out on your credentials etc.

Sorry if you think those are flames when people call you out but bottom line you are in the business somewhat and all businesses are like this period ie someone will always call you out on whatever you are promoting or saying.

If you cant handle that and at least without everyone having to constantly re assure you how many credentials you have then maybe you arent ready for the business or sales world for that matter.

That being said I kinda wish other people who represent some of the major companies out there (ie weider, met rx, prolab, biotest, muslcetech etc) had the cajones to actually come online and not just promote products under aliases online but back up there stuff as well in the way you do nelson.

I do see your points about ephedrine espec the parts about it being addictive and/or abused by alot of people, but for every person that is going to rave about a product 5 others will rag on it and that may or may not have anything to do with the product and more to do with other external/internal factors ie the whole story about the person .

PS if anyone always thought I was just some convo clown well I should explain that 8is one facet of my real personality.

As far as people using real names well wake up people who use real names, many are discussing thier use of products that are illegal in the countries they live in never mind the fallout from work, family etc.

Nelson even if you never wote a book at least if you got nailed for gear use you could protect yourself under the guise of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) being over 40 and all. the majority cant

Millie rocks...

Dont most people who use supplements legal or otherwise for fat burning typically go off the eating plans and training/cardio they did after stopping using said supplements. That is the most logical reason for people gaining weight in my opinion.

Look at it this way. How many idiots does anyone know who actually only train when tey are on juice? How many people go on supplements again legal/illegal and cry bloody murder when the supps dont give them any results yet the training eating etc of the person is the whole story

PS personally I think 99% of supplements are useless unless diet and training are right for the person and thier goals.

And you shoot yourself in the foot.....

Of course. Supplements just give a little boost. It's up to the user to decide where it's needed and when it's worth it.

Actually, even steroids don't do much unless you train and eat right. I see guys looking to gain twenty pounds and they're mixing their protein with water and cutting carbs. Then when they don't grow they assume they need more drugs.

I was re-reading an interview I did with Craig Titus and he said, as long as he gets enough protein, water and fiber, he eats whatever he can -- Mc Donolds, cookies, whatever, in order to grow.

But yeah, it's best to look at supplements as a healthy addition, and ephedra isn't healthy. Nothing will ever take the place of drugs but drugs have their downside. That's why I always felt a combination of a judicious use of drugs along with good supplementation gives the best advantage. But again, without the diet and especially the right kind of hard training, you're wasting your time.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

I'm skipping forward now because let's face it.....mindless bickering is boring.



Millie rocks...



And you shoot yourself in the foot.....

Was there supposed to be a point to all that?

 

[rubberduckyo]

Was there supposed to be a point to all that?

Yes there was. You begin this thread saying that people gain back fat after using ephedra do to a "rebound effect".

Later on you say that people gain back the fat because they get lax with their eating and training habits.

Are you contradicting yourself?

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Yes there was. You begin this thread saying that people gain back fat after using ephedra do to a "rebound effect".

Later on you say that people gain back the fat because they get lax with their eating and training habits.

Are you contradicting yourself?

I looked back over the thread and nowhere did I say that. You must be confusing me with someone else. But of course, getting lax with diet and exercise will also cause weight gain, obviously. I still don't see your point.

 

[rubberduckyo]

Nelson, you're exasperating to say the least.

You've put forth an argument here that ephedra causes a rebound fat gain and yet when Millie comes along and suggests that most people at the end of their cutting cycle return to more lax eating habits and THAT is the reason for their fat gain, YOU AGREE. That's a contradiction.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Nelson, you're exasperating to say the least.

You've put forth an argument here that ephedra causes a rebound fat gain and yet when Millie comes along and suggests that most people at the end of their cutting cycle return to more lax eating habits and THAT is the reason for their fat gain, YOU AGREE. That's a contradiction.

How is that a contradiction? Are you saying there can only be one cause for fat gain? That if someone gains weight from overeating, ephedra can't have a rebound effect? Dude, you're making no sense.

 

[rubberduckyo]

How is that a contradiction? Are you saying there can only be one cause for fat gain? That if someone gains weight from overeating, ephedra can't have a rebound effect? Dude, you're making no sense.

Oh I give up. You're not even trying to see my point.

 

[jcp2]

I have to agree with nelson on this, I have not read this whole thread but if your body temp is going to rise and cause the body to burn fat, the body is going to adjust to lower its own metabolic rate, it is how our body reacts to just about everything. And what i have read and assumed was common knowledge was the thermogenic properties of ephedrine stopped after a few weeks, and the appetite surpressing properties is what the kept the user thinner. Now i don't have any studies to back this up, but to me it is the most logical. And like i have said before, i have no clue if nelsons products work or not, but in theory if you can keep the thyroid at high output during a diet you will be much better off imo than taking ephedrine or any other stims. Now we can all bait nelson for days for our own amusement, but about 50% of the posts in this thread are useless when they could have been used for a discussion.

 

[hhajdo]

Thermogenic properties of ephedrine actually improve with chronic use (unlike clenbuterol).
This is because about 40 % of its thermogenic effects are due to beta- 3 receptor activation (Beta-3 receptors don't get desensitized like beta-2 which are activated by clen)...

Some research also shows increased T4 to T3 conversion with chronic use...



Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Jul;42(1):83-94. Related Articles, Links


Enhanced thermogenic responsiveness during chronic ephedrine treatment in man.

Astrup A, Lundsgaard C, Madsen J, Christensen NJ.

The thermogenic effect of a single oral dose of ephedrine (1 mg/kg body weight) was studied by indirect calorimetry in five women with 14% overweight before, during and 2 mo after 3 mo of chronic ephedrine treatment (20 mg, perorally, three times daily). Before treatment and 2 mo after its cessation a similar thermogenic response to ephedrine was observed. The total extra consumption of oxygen was 1.3 1 before and 1.2 1 after cessation of the chronic treatment. After 4 and 12 wk of treatment ephedrine elicited a more sustained response, the extra oxygen consumption in the 3 h following ephedrine intake being 7.0 and 6.9 1, respectively. The ratio of serum T3 to T4 increased significantly after 4 wk of treatment....


Metabolism. 1986 Mar;35(3):260-5. Related Articles, Links


The effect of chronic ephedrine treatment on substrate utilization, the sympathoadrenal activity, and energy expenditure during glucose-induced thermogenesis in man.

Astrup A, Madsen J, Holst JJ, Christensen NJ.

Chronic ephedrine treatment of man has recently been found to enhance the thermogenic response to an acute dose of ephedrine. Conceivably, this sensitization to beta-adrenergic stimulation might also affect the facultative component of diet-induced thermogenesis. The glucose-induced thermogenesis (GIT) was studied in five healthy female subjects after 3 months of chronic peroral ephedrine treatment. Similar experiments 3 months after cessation of treatment served as controls. During chronic ephedrine treatment a sustained 10% elevation of the metabolic rate was found compared to that in the control study. Plasma epinephrine levels were increased 87% during treatment. These increases tended to be positively correlated (r = 0.54, P less than 0.07). GIT expressed as a percentage of the ingested energy load was unaltered during chronic ephedrine treatment compared with that in the control study (9.0% v 8.9%). The respiratory quotient (RQ) indicate that relatively more lipid was oxidized during chronic ephedrine treatment than in the control study. This change was observed in the fasting state as well as after glucose administration. Certain effects of ephedrine seems to be appropriate to a thermogenic drug for the treatment of obesity: A single dose of ephedrine stimulates thermogenesis, an effect that is enhanced during chronic treatment; Chronic treatment elevates the metabolic rate; and The substrate utilization is changed in favor of lipid oxidation.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

There seems to be some contradiction with the numbers in the first study.

In the second one it seems to suggest that ephedRINE continues to impart an effect as long as the dosages are increased. Also, the tests were done on obese people who also fasted? And 60 mgs of epheDRINE every day? YIKES!

 

[hhajdo]

The dosages didn't increase,they just measured plasma epinephrine response to ephedrine treatment (which increased 87%)... They measured lipid oxidation,metabolic rate & thermogenesis and compared results with another experiment in which no ephedrine was used... The result shows that ephedrine increases metabolic rate/lipid oxidation...

Many studies show that ephedrine stimulates thermogenesis, increases lipid oxidation and promotes fat loss in both lean and obese subjects and its effects improve with chronic use:

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 2001 Mar;25(3):316-24 Related Articles, Links


An herbal supplement containing Ma Huang-Guarana for weight loss: a randomized, double-blind trial.

Boozer CN, Nasser JA, Heymsfield SB, Wang V, Chen G, Solomon JL.

Obesity Research Center, St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center and Department of Medicine, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York 10025, USA. cnb7@columbia.edu

OBJECTIVE: To examine in overweight humans the short-term safety and efficacy for weight loss of an herbal supplement containing Ma Huang, Guarana and other ingredients. DESIGN: An 8 week randomized, double-blind placebo controlled study of a herbal dietary supplement (72 mg/day ephedrine alkaloids and 240 mg/day caffeine). SUBJECTS: Overweight men and women (body mass index, > or =29 and < or =35 kg/m2). MEASUREMENTS: The primary outcome variable was body weight change. Secondary variables included anthropometric, metabolic and cardiovascular changes. RESULTS: Sixty-seven subjects were randomized to either placebo (n=32) or active Ma Huang/Guarana (n=35). Twenty-four subjects in each group completed the study. Active treatment produced significantly (P<0.006) greater loss of weight (X+/-s.d.,-4.0+/-3.4 kg) and fat (-2.1+/-3.0% fat) over the 8-week treatment period than did placebo (-0.8+/-2.4 kg and 0.2+/-2.3% fat). Active treatment also produced greater reductions in hip circumference and serum triglyceride levels...

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Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1996 Feb;20(2):91-7 Related Articles, Links


Post-prandial thermogenesis with ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin in lean, pre-disposed obese and obese women.

Horton TJ, Geissler CA.

Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, King's College, University of London, Kensington, UK.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether or not aspirin further potentiates the greater post-prandial thermogenesis induced by ephedrine with caffeine. DESIGN: Determination of the acute metabolic rate response to the following treatments: 1050 kJ liquid meal (M); meal plus ephedrine (30 mg) and caffeine (100 mg) (MEC) or meal plus ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin (300 mg) (MECA). SUBJECTS: Lean, pre-disposed obese and obese women (n = 10 each group). MEASUREMENTS: Pre- and post-treatment metabolic rate determinations via indirect calorimetry. Post-treatment measurements made at 20 min intervals for a total of 160 min. RESULTS: In all groups, metabolic rate increased significantly more following the MEC or MECA, compared to the meal only (p < 0.05). The obese group had a significantly greater absolute increase in metabolic rate following the MECA and MEC compared to both the lean and pre-disposed obese groups (p < 0.05). Metabolic rate remained elevated at the end of the 160 min following all treatments...

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Metabolism 1991 Mar;40(3):323-9 Related Articles, Links


Thermogenic synergism between ephedrine and caffeine in healthy volunteers: a double-blind, placebo-controlled study.

Astrup A, Toubro S, Cannon S, Hein P, Madsen J.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Animal and human studies have suggested a thermogenic synergism between ephedrine (E), a beta-agonist, and caffeine (C), an adenosine antagonist, which may be suitable for the treatment of obesity. To study this phenomenon, the thermogenic effect of single doses of oral placebo, E 10 mg, E 20 mg, C 100 mg, and C 200 mg were compared with the effects of three different combinations of E + C, 10 mg/200 mg, 20 mg/100 mg, and 20 mg/200 mg, measured by indirect calorimetry in six healthy, lean subjects. The thermogenic effect after E + C 20 mg/200 mg was larger than that of any of the other combinations. In this dose ratio, ephedrine and caffeine exerted a supra-additive synergism, whereas the thermogenic effects of the other two combinations were only additive. The 3-hour postintake increase in systolic blood pressure after all three combinations averaged 5 to 7 mm Hg more than placebo (P less than .01), which exceeded the predicted additive effect fivefold to sevenfold. Diastolic blood pressure was not increased by E + C 20 mg/200 mg, whereas the other two combinations increased it by approximately 4 mm Hg more than placebo. E + C 20 mg/100 mg and 20 mg/200 mg increased heart rate more than placebo, while E + C 10 mg/200 mg had no effect on heart rate. As expected, all combinations increased plasma glucose, insulin, and C-peptide from their ephedrine content. No significant effects of the combinations were found on plasma lactate, glycerol, nonesterified fatty acids (NEFA), triglyceride, potassium, or sodium.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS).


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Metabolism 1992 Jul;41(7):686-8 Related Articles, Links


The effect of ephedrine/caffeine mixture on energy expenditure and body composition in obese women.

Astrup A, Buemann B, Christensen NJ, Toubro S, Thorbek G, Victor OJ, Quaade F.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Treatment with beta 2-agonists promotes fat loss and muscle growth in numerous species, but human studies are lacking. We studied the effect of a compound with beta 2-agonistic properties (ephedrine 20 mg/caffeine 200 mg [E + C]). Fourteen obese women were treated with a 4.2-MJ/d diet and either E + C or placebo (P) three times per day for 8 weeks in a double-blind study. Weight-loss was not different in the groups, but the E + C group lost 4.5 kg more body fat and 2.8 kg less fat-free mass (FFM). The decrease in 24-hour energy expenditure (EE) seen in the P group was 10% at day 1 and 13% at day 56, but was only 7% and 8% in the treated group (P = .044). The higher EE in the E +C group was entirely covered by fat oxidation. These findings provide evidence that promotion of fat loss and preservation of FFM during weight reduction may also be achieved pharmacologically in humans.

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Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1993 Feb;17 Suppl 1:S73-8 Related Articles, Links


Ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin: safety and efficacy for treatment of human obesity.

Daly PA, Krieger DR, Dulloo AG, Young JB, Landsberg L.

Dept of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, Boston.

The safety and efficacy of a mixture of ephedrine (75-150mg), caffeine (150mg) and aspirin (330mg), in divided premeal doses, were investigated in 24 obese humans (mean BMI 37.0) in a randomized double blind placebo-controlled trial. Energy intake was not restricted. Overall weight loss over 8 weeks was 2.2kg for ECA vs. 0.7 kg for placebo (p < 0.05). 8 of 13 placebo subjects returned 5 months later and received ECA in an unblinded crossover. After 8 weeks, mean weight loss with ECA was 3.2 kg vs 1.3 kg for placebo (p = 0.036). 6 subjects continued on ECA for 7 to 26 months. After 5 months on ECA, average weight loss in 5 of these was 5.2 kg compared to 0.03 kg gained during 5 months between studies with no intervention (p = 0.03). The sixth subject lost 66 kg over 13 months by self-imposed caloric restriction. In all studies, no significant changes in heart rate, blood pressure, blood glucose, insulin, and cholesterol levels, and no differences in the frequency of side effects were found. ECA in these doses is thus well tolerated in otherwise healthy obese subjects, and supports modest, sustained weight loss even without prescribed caloric restriction, and may be more effective in conjunction with restriction of energy intake.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Once again, the original statements seem to be getting misconstued and the rebuttals aren't dealing with the original statements. I never said ephedra didn't do ANYTHING. I just sais as fat burner it isn't particularly effective and it had considerable side effects.

But what the heck. Let's look at each of these studies.

Study # 1: Says that people lost weight while using ephedra. Duh. No further studies were done one month following the experiment.

#2:Basically says that metabolic rate was increased WHILE ACTIVE IN THE BLOODSTREAM. It aslo concludes the same effect with or withour aspirin which is what I've been saying all along.

#3: (My post got messed up. I'll continue this on another)

 

[thetopdog]

There seems to be some contradiction with the numbers in the first study.

In the second one it seems to suggest that ephedRINE continues to impart an effect as long as the dosages are increased. Also, the tests were done on obese people who also fasted? And 60 mgs of epheDRINE every day? YIKES!

I'm not trying to flame, but what's wrong with 60mgs (or more) of Ephedrine every day for a few weeks? assuming you're already in good health.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

The third study is essentially a repeat of the first other than the combination of ephedra and caffeine increased blood pressure.

Study # 4 was inconclusive,

#5: This study was done with non stop 24 month usage and the weight loss (which probably included muscle as well) was slight. It also said there was no efect on heart rate, but that's a little hard to believe.

So there you have it. The reason I'm not cowered by cut and paste studies is that i actually read them and actually understand them. To some people, as long as study exists, that's good enough for them. Not one of these studies disputed anything I've said and parts of them verified some of my claims. Thanks hhajdo.

 

[hhajdo]

I didn't post this as a response to your original post. Just wanted to show that its effect doesn't significantly decrease with chronic use, and that it actually increases T3/T4 ratio...

Obviously the effect of a drug will be observed while it's active. Do you think that they should have waited one month after after the administration of ephedrine to perform those tests ?

I agree that it might be dangerous.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

I didn't post this as a response to your original post. Just wanted to show that its effect doesn't significantly decrease with chronic use, and that it actually increases T3/T4 ratio...

Obviously the effect of a drug will be observed while it's active. Do you think that they should have waited one month after after the administration of ephedrine to perform those tests ?

I agree that it might be dangerous.

I think that would be interesting -- and the true test. Of course, with obese people there's a better chance of the weight being lower although I'd bet much of it came back. I think people with "average" bf it would be more difficult to keep it off, plus, as mentioned, once you've gotten used that that stimulation, if nothing else, it'll be harder to have productive workouts.

To ne honest, I have no idea why chronic use would increase T4/t3 ratio except that after a while the thyroid MUST get involved to maintain thermogenisis. Then again, why not stimulate the thyroid in the first place? 24 months of non stop daily high dose ephedra use is a little crazy.

 

[hhajdo]

Haycock mentioned this in his article:

"The advantages to using a non-specific beta agonist are two fold. First, although ephedrine binds to other adrenergic receptors, it seems that the most beneficial adrenergic effects, such as thermogenesis, are actually enhanced after chronic use.2,3 This may be explained by chronic stimulation of alpha receptors by NA and Adr. This chronic alpha-adrenergic stimulation may activate thyroxin deiodinases leading to the peripheral conversion of T4 to T3. In fact, significant increases in the ratio of T3 to T4 have been shown to occur after 4 weeks of chronic treatment of ephedrine..."

http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/haycock/ephedrine-and-beta-adrenergic-receptors.htm

 

[Milhouse]

I have to agree with nelson on this, I have not read this whole thread but if your body temp is going to rise and cause the body to burn fat, the body is going to adjust to lower its own metabolic rate, it is how our body reacts to just about everything. And what i have read and assumed was common knowledge was the thermogenic properties of ephedrine stopped after a few weeks, and the appetite surpressing properties is what the kept the user thinner. Now i don't have any studies to back this up, but to me it is the most logical. And like i have said before, i have no clue if nelsons products work or not, but in theory if you can keep the thyroid at high output during a diet you will be much better off imo than taking ephedrine or any other stims. Now we can all bait nelson for days for our own amusement, but about 50% of the posts in this thread are useless when they could have been used for a discussion.

I can see what your saying but like you said above about body temp above is true, then if Nelson's product works by keeping the thyroid output high during a diet wouldnt you suffer a rebound effect as well when going off that product as well?

 

[Nelson - Montana]

I can see what your saying but like you said above about body temp above is true, then if Nelson's product works by keeping the thyroid output high during a diet wouldnt you suffer a rebound effect as well when going off that product as well?

No! That's the point! The supps don't cause suppression because you'll never get into a superpysiological range beyond what the thyroid can produce. It will only allow the thyroid to work at maximum, natural, efficiency. Once you stop, you'll slowly return to where your output was when you started.

 

[Milhouse]

No! That's the point! The supps don't cause suppression because you'll never get into a superpysiological range beyond what the thyroid can produce. It will only allow the thyroid to work at maximum, natural, efficiency. Once you stop, you'll slowly return to where your output was when you started.

I can see where your coming from.

Basically in laymans terms if you flood your system with too much product x that is supposed to stimulate excess production of(insert tests, bosy temp, thyroid outut etc) over and above what your body normally produces over time your body will cut back/stop production of whatever function and screw up the system causing a negative rebound effect.

Or in other words a body chemical imbalance