Hmmm, very questionable, I still disagree with this 100% based on the facts alone. But also the question still isnt answered as to what would be the difference between running this during the whole cycle or running this at normal dose (1000ius EOD) starting 1-2 weeks before post cycle therapy (pct)? I start my HCG 1 1/2 week before post cycle therapy (pct) with nolvadex. I just dont see the sense behinding basing testicle size with testicule function.
Question for those who suggest Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle
- Thread starter bigjohn79
- Start date
macgyver_48
New member
looks like this to me bro:
pre-AAS : normal size, normal function
during cycle : reduced size, reduced function
proper post cycle : normal size, normal function
not entirely scientific, but i can see a correlation there
as far as a difference between the 2 post cycle therapy (pct) methods, having full size and therefore fully functioning (in the sense of the ability to respond to LH) would seem to hasten HPTA recovery.
how long does it take your testes to regain their size using ur method?
pre-AAS : normal size, normal function
during cycle : reduced size, reduced function
proper post cycle : normal size, normal function
not entirely scientific, but i can see a correlation there
as far as a difference between the 2 post cycle therapy (pct) methods, having full size and therefore fully functioning (in the sense of the ability to respond to LH) would seem to hasten HPTA recovery.
how long does it take your testes to regain their size using ur method?
stonecold54
New member
okay see if this helps. in order to complete recovery the testes have to be back to orginal size. if you maintain size during a cycle your post cycle therapy (pct) will be more helpful when you start it. it is common knowledge (or at least I hope it is) that too much HCG is bad and you will desensitize to it. that is why the recommendation during cycle is 500iu once or twice a week to maintain size. I don't know what all the debate is about.
hhajdo
Community Veteran
As macgyver_48 said, Leydig cell volume correlates with testosterone-secreting capacity of the testis...
There are also some other direct negative effects of LH suppression which can be avoided.
LH suppression can also downregulate LH receptors, and decrease expression of some enzymes like C17-hydroxylase/C17,20-lyase which participate in testicular steroidogenesis...
If < 500 IUs or less of HCG is used there shouldn't be any desensitization and those negative effects can be avoided...
Using it for 10-15 days post cycle should be sufficient for majority, though.. If you know from your personal experience that 10-15 days of HCG is sufficient for you then you definitely don't need to use it throughout the cycle ...
It might be a good idea to use it while on longer cycles, > 12 weeks..
There are also some other direct negative effects of LH suppression which can be avoided.
LH suppression can also downregulate LH receptors, and decrease expression of some enzymes like C17-hydroxylase/C17,20-lyase which participate in testicular steroidogenesis...
If < 500 IUs or less of HCG is used there shouldn't be any desensitization and those negative effects can be avoided...
Using it for 10-15 days post cycle should be sufficient for majority, though.. If you know from your personal experience that 10-15 days of HCG is sufficient for you then you definitely don't need to use it throughout the cycle ...
It might be a good idea to use it while on longer cycles, > 12 weeks..
prbaflexed
New member
it seems like the original ? isn't being answered. would taking nolve during a cycle have similar effects in maintaining your boys. this cycle i'm on is the only time i've taken nolve throughout (it has been 20+ weeks) and i haven't needed hcg because i haven't noticed any atrophy ( trust me my girl gives them a complete evaluation nightly). it seems to me nolve is benifital for maintaining nut size.
JohnnyB
Community Veteran
Bro you haven't quoted 1 fact or sceintific study. You are the one saying that doing it during a cycle is wrong, so the burden is on you not us. If you got the studies to prove your point post um. I'd be glad to read them, but if you're just looking for a debate or pissing contest it's pointless. As I stated before noting is written in stone, do want works for you. If you want to be dogmatic about the issue post your proof. I'm sure we would all appreciate the info.bigjohn79 said:
The best way to do something like this is to post your sientific studies to show why using it during a cycle is wrong. Then there's something to discuss. But when someone answer you in the same manor that you've been proving your point, then you say they have posted any science to prove their point, that staement is self incriminating.
If you haven't noticed Bro there are no so called gurus here, we all help each other. We discuss what we've used with sucess and failure. We do post studies as well, studies are used to get some info on what is going to be used or to make a decision on how to use it. But when it all comes to the real life it's what works best for those using what ever it may be. Then we share our experience with the board or what our studies show.
It's not about be right or wrong, it's about do gear safely and helping others do them as safe as possible too.
The method of use you bring up with HCG has been used before, that was the standard before, using it the 2 weeks before post cycle therapy (pct). We here and at other boards through trial and error have found that using it through a cycle works best for us. If you feel it's best used the old way go for it no one is going to stop you.
At this board and others a first cycle is test at 400-500 a week. Now there are other boards that recommend test + deca or eq, yet others will recommend those with d-bol too. So everyone has different ideas and everyone has to deal with the consequences of those decisions if they come.
JohnnyB
I agree what you guys are saying regarding the "boys" shrinking during cycle however, if your testes remain the same size during cycle that doesnt necc. mean that shutdown of production as been altered any less, for instance when hitting a strong post cycle therapy (pct), after 1 week ur testes go back to natural size or close.. does this mean your HTPA is back 100% no. If this is what your trying to do, why not just start HCG 1 week before you start post cycle therapy (pct). HCg's main focus is to "minic" LH, this makes it not the perfect compound to combat test suppression just atropy. HCG just shocks them out of atrophy which happens quickly during post cycle therapy (pct), but has no effect on the blocking of inhibition on the hypothalmas , this is done by your antiestrogens....so if anything this theory would make more sense if you ran antiestrogens during cycle as opposed to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)? I have always ran HCG started 1 week before I start my post cycle therapy (pct) with nolva. This works because the HCG gives your testes a shock, which gets them ready for post cycle therapy (pct) with Nolvadex which will actually return test levels to norm.
Statement number one, the references here, are not "my" theory these are actual facts on how the body works.
number 2
1)if HCG is used over a long period of time HCG may actuall act to desensitize the Leydigs cells to luteinizing hormone, which would further hinder a return to homeostatis..
If you need a"reference or link" to understand this info, then perhaps you need to go back to the drawing board. This is basic knowledge on the body and how it works.
And to answer the other question by prbaflexed, yes nolva would giv e you the same result minus the negative possible effects of long term/pointless hcg use during cycle.
Is that enough science refernce you for john B?
Statement number one, the references here, are not "my" theory these are actual facts on how the body works.
number 2
1)if HCG is used over a long period of time HCG may actuall act to desensitize the Leydigs cells to luteinizing hormone, which would further hinder a return to homeostatis..
If you need a"reference or link" to understand this info, then perhaps you need to go back to the drawing board. This is basic knowledge on the body and how it works.
And to answer the other question by prbaflexed, yes nolva would giv e you the same result minus the negative possible effects of long term/pointless hcg use during cycle.
Is that enough science refernce you for john B?
And I am not claiming to be a guru either, however I at least use scientific reference to guide my cycles/practices, not really big on basic studies. Most of the methods here are methods practice on much other boards, for instance the one I moderate, except the HCG concept is the only big difference in opinion I see. I am not trying to stir things up, just wanted to know if there was scientical means or personal experience means to which this method was developed. I honestly dont think this method can be properly accounted for by scientific means , by if ur postive experiences are valid, I am no one to say that its not a successful method.
JohnnyB
Community Veteran
You're rigth that is the basics of HCG long use do desencitize that when used in large doses.
Before you try to down a method of use you need to understand it first before saty it shouldn't be used.
The idea behind hcg during a cycle is to maintain teste size nothing more, this eliminate the first part of the recovery process. It basicly boils down to you think it's better to jump start a died man heart then for him to maintain a good healthy heart.
The reason for not going over 500iu every 3-4 days is because the active life of hcg is about 64 hours. So using it through the cycle the doese never get to the point of desencitizing the testes. Unless your running a year round cycle then your taking your chances just like anything else.
So I'll say it again, we need to come to our own conclusion and go with them.
But I do want to ask you a question why would you need to inject hcg eod if the active life is about 64 hours what is the benifit?
JohnnyB
Before you try to down a method of use you need to understand it first before saty it shouldn't be used.
The idea behind hcg during a cycle is to maintain teste size nothing more, this eliminate the first part of the recovery process. It basicly boils down to you think it's better to jump start a died man heart then for him to maintain a good healthy heart.
The reason for not going over 500iu every 3-4 days is because the active life of hcg is about 64 hours. So using it through the cycle the doese never get to the point of desencitizing the testes. Unless your running a year round cycle then your taking your chances just like anything else.
So I'll say it again, we need to come to our own conclusion and go with them.
But I do want to ask you a question why would you need to inject hcg eod if the active life is about 64 hours what is the benifit?
JohnnyB
hhajdo
Community Veteran
bigjohn79 said:
A long period of time is not required for desensitization to occur. A single administration of HCG (1500 IUs) causes slight desensitization which can be avoided by using smaller doses:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Feb;58(2):327-31 Related Articles, Links
Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.
Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.
This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).
TxLonghorn
Community Veteran
If you are only going to do an 8 week cycle, then I wouldn't worry about hcg during the entire cycle, just at the end. However, for those who have done longer cycles, I think there is more going on with hcg than we know. For many who get that wired, burned out feeling after being on for several weeks, hcg seems to make this disappear, as well as increasing libido, even for those on a gram or more of test.
Bottom line, there is very little 'hard' science behind just about everything that we do. We extrapolate from other studies and apply those findings to ourselves, as well as trial and error and anecdotal evidence.
If you don't want to take hcg, don't. There have been tons of physiques that have been made without Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). However, I think for those planning on an extended cycle, hcg is just the thing.
Also, I have no idea why you keep talking about desensitization...this has been covered and is the reason we prefer not to take any more than 500ius at a time and never on consecutive days.
Bottom line, there is very little 'hard' science behind just about everything that we do. We extrapolate from other studies and apply those findings to ourselves, as well as trial and error and anecdotal evidence.
If you don't want to take hcg, don't. There have been tons of physiques that have been made without Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). However, I think for those planning on an extended cycle, hcg is just the thing.
Also, I have no idea why you keep talking about desensitization...this has been covered and is the reason we prefer not to take any more than 500ius at a time and never on consecutive days.
The one thing I don't understand, is that there is no evidence that shows that testicle size = any improvement in recovery, HTPA is still going to be show down just the same amount if none was administered as long as there is any amount of syntetic hormones(aas) in the body, they are still not going to be used so they are still as dormat. You are just given them a shock for nothing.
J-Land_Joe
New member
Fact:
1. LH desensitization will occur--Negative--Hell, why do we rotate injection sites? Receptor site downgrade(desensitization)
2. Testicles will return to normal after 1-2 weeks administration of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). So why waste your money running it for the duration of our cycle.
3. Just because you can maintain size during a cycle by using HCG DOESN'T mean that you can produce test naturally.
Conclusion:
No need to run HCG during a cycle.
1. LH desensitization will occur--Negative--Hell, why do we rotate injection sites? Receptor site downgrade(desensitization)
2. Testicles will return to normal after 1-2 weeks administration of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). So why waste your money running it for the duration of our cycle.
3. Just because you can maintain size during a cycle by using HCG DOESN'T mean that you can produce test naturally.
Conclusion:
No need to run HCG during a cycle.
TxLonghorn
Community Veteran
J-Land_Joe said:
This makes no sense and your facts are suspect at best.
Fact: there isn't any scientific research behind using or not using hcg during a cycle.
Fact: it is not a requirement to use hcg
Fact: some people will use anything to convince themselves they are right, even if these things are suspect and a reach.
Conclusion:
If you don't want to use hcg, don't. I don't give a shit, but from everything I've read and heard will be using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG).
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TxLonghorn
Community Veteran
Something keeps striking me as odd with one of the main arguments against hcg usage at 500iu twice/week is that it can desensitize you to the hcg and yet there hasn't been anything shown that desensitizing occurs at such a low dosage. However, the alternative suggested is 3 times that and at a dosage that has been shown to desensitize you.
I think this is one of those things that will either stand the test of time because it works or it won't, but it won't be 'proven' anytime soon.
I think this is one of those things that will either stand the test of time because it works or it won't, but it won't be 'proven' anytime soon.
JohnnyB
Community Veteran
Bro if you don't understand the reason behind using hcg during a cycle how can you say it's wrong. You're setting up straw men to knock them down, the problem is they don't exsist.J-Land_Joe said:
As I said before nothing is written in stone, but as Tx said if it's good it'll stand the test of time.
Using it the 2 weeks before post cycle therapy (pct) has fallen by the wayside and using it during the cycle is the way most people are using it now.
I know there are people that don't like SWALE so they totally reject this idea becuse it origanated with him. That I know of none of these people have come up with any studys to prove it wrong. All they have is a dogmatic mantra that they pass on.
Read the link I posted by SWALE on post cycle therapy (pct) so that you can better understand why this method is used.
JohnnyB
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