*budd_2040
New member
did i read somewhere that saw palmetto can hinder gains when on a cycle?? i was going to take some like i did last cycle because i heard it was successful for acne..so what is the truth on this??
saw palmetto hinder gains??
- Thread starter *budd_2040
- Start date
Drveejay11
Community Veteran
It may ....but NOT to the any significant degree IMO. With the supraphysiological amounts of gear you are introducing into your system with gear; SP would NOT be a significant hinderance to your gains.
By the way: Pygeum is an excellent product for the prostate IMO. SOME claim it's more effective than SP. Use both.
By the way: Pygeum is an excellent product for the prostate IMO. SOME claim it's more effective than SP. Use both.
StoneColdNTO
Administrator
*budd_2040 said:
Never heard that one before........
*budd_2040
New member
hey stone cold..kept nearly 25 lbs from my 500 test e once a week cycle..(went from 190 to 220 and now back down to about 215) and im going to do a 500 test e/25mg dbol cycle this next week..thought i would let you know. you think taking SP (1 pill) per day would be better than not taking any of it..with the chance it can be a hinderence?
StoneColdNTO
Administrator
*budd_2040 said:
IMO, SP will not hinder gains any significant amount, so to me it's a non-issue. I take two/day on my Test cycles, and one/day the rest of the year.
*budd_2040
New member
thanks man!!..anyone else have opinions or facts about this feel free to post as well
simpllyhuge
New member
what is Pygeum.
simpllyhuge
New member
i take saw palmetto for cronic prostattitus that wont go away, right now im taking like 8 pills a day at 160 mg each. Will this hinder my natural gains at all or show any sides because i am planning on taking it non stop.? thanks
simpllyhuge
New member
does sp block dht or somthing, why would some say it hinders gains or lowers sex drive?
Powerhouse9
New member
hinders gains, I doubt you would know a difference if it does. You are taking AS not androstene. You may not gain that 1/10th of a pound and thats about it. I don't think there has been any studies done. And for those that get pissed and worry about it.... just shoot an extra cc or pop an extra tab of something to make up for it.
I believe if sp has any effect on gains it would be a positive one.
In case you take it with test,saw palmetto would only hinder test conversion to dht,so more test and less dht would be in circulation.
test is more anabolic than dht so this would mean more gains.
Less dht would mean of course less sex drive and possibly less strength ,but definitely not less gains.
The same goes for proscar.
In case you take it with test,saw palmetto would only hinder test conversion to dht,so more test and less dht would be in circulation.
test is more anabolic than dht so this would mean more gains.
Less dht would mean of course less sex drive and possibly less strength ,but definitely not less gains.
The same goes for proscar.
Nelson Montana
Community Veteran, Bodybuilding Author
I used to take SP regularly.
I 'll never take it again.
Why in the world would you want to reduce DHT? Guys take proviron (which increases DHT) to get hard, reduce the chance of gyno and increse libido and then they take SP which has the eact opposite effect. That's pretty dumb.
The higher your DHT, the less chance of getting gyno. This is yet ANOTHER case of guys using more and more drugs to cure a problem they wouldn't even have if they took the proper precautions -- or in the least, didn't take stuff that made the condition worse.
If you have prostate problems use pygeum, lycopene, alanine, pumpking seed oil and stinging nettles. Do not use saw palmetto.
I 'll never take it again.
Why in the world would you want to reduce DHT? Guys take proviron (which increases DHT) to get hard, reduce the chance of gyno and increse libido and then they take SP which has the eact opposite effect. That's pretty dumb.
The higher your DHT, the less chance of getting gyno. This is yet ANOTHER case of guys using more and more drugs to cure a problem they wouldn't even have if they took the proper precautions -- or in the least, didn't take stuff that made the condition worse.
If you have prostate problems use pygeum, lycopene, alanine, pumpking seed oil and stinging nettles. Do not use saw palmetto.
tee
old...old man
I have taken SP for a few years now on a regular basis. In all honesty, I dont notice it doing a damn thing (either good or bad). I have done cycles while on it, and cycles before I ever took SP. I didnt notice a damn difference there either. Guess the only difference is the big $$$ my wallet is missing from buying it for so many years. 
simpllyhuge
New member
does it acutally block dht? i was told it just is a reduced prostate size, and was told it had nothing to do with dht.
Nelson Montana
Community Veteran, Bodybuilding Author
DUANABOL said:Nelson, come on man, you really believe that about Saw Palmetto? In your remarks above, you said that SP increases the chances of gyno and decreases libido by decreasing DHT.
This is like the third time you asked me if I REALLY believe what I say. DHT prevents gyno. Why do you investigate the information instead of questioning me at every turn. Then again, I've gotten this since I started posting on thee boards.
The situation with a member of this board recently was a microchosm of what happened to me on other boards.
I make a statement that goes against coventional thinking.
People don't believe me and think I;m saying it because I have nothing better to do but to be contrarian..
They get pissed that the information goes against their thinking.
The insults begin.
I explain how the accusations are msdirected.
Things heat up more.
I get blamed for starting flame wars.
I'm not accusing you of doing that, but I recognize the pattern of how it begins. Meanwhile over at EF my posts would get thousands of replies. Now the only posts with over 100 views re those about the AF store that the owners keep bumping. It's a complete waste of time and the board has disintgrated. But that's another story.
This is just a long winded way of saying, I don't want that to happen here and if I say something, it's because I mean it, and because I know it to be correct.
DHT helps regulate estrogen in men. Block it with saw palmetto or proscar and you can decrease sexual function and increase the chance of gyno. This is why DHT gel (andractim) helps reduce gyno. You want prostate protection, use stinging nettle or pygeum.
Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT
One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!
How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.
Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.
Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.
DHT, estrogen, and the prostate
When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.
The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.
The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).
Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly correlated to the development of BPH.
Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.
So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.
None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.
The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:
"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50%.
Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."
This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn’t it?
Conclusion
People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see, this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break. I now pronounce June "DHT Appreciation Month". Thank you.
by Pat Arnold
Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT
One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!
How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.
Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.
Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.
DHT, estrogen, and the prostate
When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.
The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.
The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).
Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly correlated to the development of BPH.
Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.
So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.
None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.
The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:
"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50%.
Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."
This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn’t it?
Conclusion
People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see, this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break. I now pronounce June "DHT Appreciation Month". Thank you.
by Pat Arnold
Nelson Montana
Community Veteran, Bodybuilding Author
Good post testintime.
Pat and I don't always see eye to eye but we're dead on in agreement with this one
Hence, I reiterate. Don't take saw palmetto.
Pat and I don't always see eye to eye but we're dead on in agreement with this one
Hence, I reiterate. Don't take saw palmetto.
*budd_2040
New member
i took one berry per day last cycle throughout the cycle..i am pretty sure that wouldnt have decreased my gains one bit
Similar threads
