So I think I'm gonna do NPP instead of test for my first cycle

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Well you seem to have done some research with regards to this topic and I commend you for that. It is always refreshing to see a genuine attempt at cognitive reasoning.

It is a shame I have to point out the intricacies in the data you may have missed.

Hopefully you don't take offense again as that is not my intention. On reread of my previous post I will admit I was quite the proverbial asshole. So I won't bother defending myself against the explicates you used to describe my behavior.

First off I will admit I made a mistake in wording. I should have said 19-nors are not highly aromatizing. It can aromatize. So this anger you feel towards me is probably justified.

With regards to the first article, this study is inconclusive for a couple reasons. If you read the bold part you will see that serum testorone to estrogen levels where decreased as expected by HPTA shutdown. Obviously an increase in estrogen serum levels would occur. They just stated that testosterone was decreased. Also note estradiol remained unchanged which shows a lack of aromatizing despite their conclusions.

Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1982 Sep;101(1):108-12.

Influence of nandrolondecanoate on the pituitary-gonadal axis in males.
Bijlsma JW, Duursma SA, Thijssen JH, Huber O.

Abstract
Different anabolic steroids can exercise different effects on the pituitary-gonadal axis in males. During a pilot study regarding the possible beneficial effect of the anabolic steroid nandrolondecanoate (ND) on bone metabolism in patients with rheumatoid arthritis additional endocrinological parameters were studies. A significant decrease was found in the serum levels of testosterone, androstenedione and FSH and the ratio of testosterone/oestradiol. There was a significant increase in the serum levels of oestrone. The levels of oestradiol, SHBG, LH and cortisol remained unchanged. An inhibitory effect of ND on testicular testosterone secretion is assumed. The decrease in androstenedione levels is explained by the diminished testosterone secretion. The rise in oestrone levels is explained by peripheral aromatizing of ND to oestrogens. The presented findings are in accordance with the hypothesis that sex steroids can act directly on the pituitary resulting in selective FSH and LH secretion. The possible role of the ratio testosterone/oestradiol in controlling gonadotrophin output is discussed.

PMID: 6812344

The second article you chose contained more inaccuracies. I have highlighted them in bold.

Nippon Naibunpi Gakkai Zasshi. 1986 Jan 20;62(1):18-25.

[Aromatization of androstenedione and 19-nortestosterone in human placenta, liver and adipose tissues]
[Article in Japanese]

Yoshiji S, Yamamoto T, Okada H.

Abstract
Aromatization of C-19-steroid (androstenedione; delta 4 A) and C-19 norsteroid (19-nortestosterone; NT) was measured in human placenta, liver and adipose tissues. The tissue homogenates (0.5 approximately 1.0 g w.w.) were incubated with [6, 7-3H]-delta 4 A or [6, 7-3H]-NT (10 microCi) and NADPH (1 mg/ml of 0.1M-bisodium phosphate buffer) at 37 degrees C for 2 hr in air. The enzyme reaction was terminated with 3 volumes of ethyl acetate, and [4-14C]-estrone (E1) and [4-14C]-estradiol-17 beta (E2) (10,000 dpm, 250 micrograms) were added in the incubated sample. The extract with ethyl acetate was subjected to Bio-Rad AG1-X2 column chromatography. The phenol fraction thus obtained was subjected to thin layer chromatography (TLC) (cyclohexane-ethyl acetate = 2:1, V/V and chloroform-ethyl ether = 4:1, V/V). The resulting E1 and E2 were finally isolated by co-crystallization to constant specific activity and 3H/14C ratio of crystal crops. In human placental microsomes, estrogen formation from delta 4 A and NT was 8.10 and 1.84 pmol E1 + E2/hr/mg protein, respectively. In adult liver homogenates, only E1 (35-76 fmol/hr/g) was formed from delta 4 A, but E1 and E2 were formed (70 and 31-61 fmol/hr/g, respectively) from NT. On the other hand, adipose tissue had the ability to aromatize delta 4 A to E1 (38-69 fmol/hr/g), but its ability to aromatize NT was significantly lower than that for delta 4 A. These results show that NT is readily aromatized to estrogens in the liver.

PMID: 3699194

Please note they added estrones to the samples then claimed the estrones where a result of 19-nor conversion. One of the reasons I hate NCBI. The studies there have definitive lack of scientific methodology.

On to your next article. I am not sure why you posted this one as a form of evidence. Please note it is 19-nor derivatives in this case an oral administration (not IM) of norethisterone. Obviously an estrone can convert to an estrone.

Climacteric. 2007 Aug;10(4):344-53.

Can 19-nortestosterone derivatives be aromatized in the liver of adult humans? Are there clinical implications?
Kuhl H, Wiegratz I.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynecology, J.W. Goethe University Frankfurt, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Comment in:

Climacteric. 2008 Apr;11(2):175; author reply 175-6.

Abstract
CONTEXT: Previous studies in postmenopausal women have demonstrated that, after oral administration of norethisterone, a small proportion of the compound is rapidly converted into ethinylestradiol. The shape of the concentration - time curve suggested that this occurred in the liver. The results were confirmed by in vitro investigations with adult human liver tissue. In 2002, it was shown that, after oral treatment of women with tibolone, aromatization of the compound occurred, resulting in the formation of a potent estrogen, 7 alpha-methyl-ethinylestradiol. The result has been called into question, because the adult human liver does not express cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is encoded by the CYP 19 gene. Moreover, it has been claimed that the serum level of 7 alpha-methyl-ethinylestradiol measured by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry was an artifact. REPLY: Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The conversion of the natural C19 steroids, testosterone and androstenedione, into estradiol-17beta and estrone is dependent on the oxidative elimination of the angular C19-methyl group. This complex key reaction is catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is expressed in many tissues of the adult human (e.g. ovary, fat tissue), but not in the liver. However, 19-nortestosterone derivatives are characterized by the lack of the C19-methyl group. Therefore, for the aromatization of these synthetic steroids, the action of the cytochrome P450 aromatase is not necessary and the oxidative introduction of double bonds into the A-ring can be catalyzed by other hepatic cytochrome P450 enzymes. The final key process in the formation of a phenolic A-ring, both in natural androgens and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, is the enolization of a 3-keto group to the C2-C3-enol or the C3-C4-enol moiety, which occurs without the action of enzymes. CONCLUSION: 19-nortestosterone derivatives (norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone) can readily be aromatized in the adult human liver. This leads to the formation of the potent estrogens ethinylestradiol from norethisterone or norethynodrel and 7 alpha-methyl-ethinylestradiol from tibolone. This may have clinical consequences, e.g. the elevated risk of venous thromboembolic disease in premenopausal women treated with high doses of norethisterone for bleeding disorders, or the elevated risk of stroke or endometrial disease in postmenopausal women treated with tibolone.

PMID: 17653961

Obviously just picking apart your articles is totally unfair without providing a proper study. The following study in it's entirety may me more helpful as it is much more recent as well. I will provide a link to the full article and post the relevant data here. The article is quite lengthy.

Effects of Pharmacological Doses of Nandrolone Decanoate and Progressive Resistance Training in Immunodeficient Patients Infected with Human Immunodeficiency Virus

Please note the eligibility requirements allow adequate comparison.

To be eligible for inclusion in the study, subjects had to be HIV-seropositive men at least 18 yr of age with CD4 lymphocyte counts between 50***8211;400/mm3 at screening, have stable weight (i.e. no prior weight loss >5% or weight variation >3% recorded in medical records in the prior 6 months), and have a body mass index of 20***8211;27.5 kg/m2. Subjects were required to have HIV plasma ribonucleic acid levels at screening of less than 30,000 copies/mm3, be willing not to change antiretroviral therapy for the 12 weeks of study intervention, and have a dietary intake of calories greater than 0.8 of basal energy expenditure in the week before enrollment. Subjects could not have physical limitations that would interfere with rigorous strength testing and training and had to provide written informed consent approved by the institutional review board (research committee) of the Los Angeles County-University of Southern California Medical Center.

Subjects were excluded from participation if they had evidence of active opportunistic infection, malignancy, or viral hepatitis. They could not have had fever (temperature, >=100 F) or diarrhea (more than three stools per day) in the month before the study, have participated in weight training or vigorous exercise in the preceding 28 days, have a history of prostatic enlargement or active urinary symptoms, have a history or physical examination suggesting organic heart disease, or have a history of deep venous thrombosis. Subjects could not have used any anabolic therapies (e.g. human GH, testosterone, megestrol acetate, or synthetic steroids) in the preceding 6 months or have received immune modulating therapies (e.g. pentoxifylline, thalidomide, interferons, or interleukins). Finally, potential candidates were ineligible if their chest radiograph showed cardiomegaly or chronic lung disease, electrocardiogram revealed evidence of heart disease, fasting blood sugar was more than 127 mg/dL, alanine aminotransferase or alkaline phosphatase was greater than 3 times the upper limits of normal, prothrombin time was prolonged, or muscle enzymes (e.g. creatine kinase, aspartate aminotransferase, lactate dehydrogenase, and aldolase enzymes) were more than 1.5 times the upper limit of normal within 14 days before enrollment.

I find this article a good source as it uses doses related to bodybuilders.

The first dose of nandrolone was 200 mg, and the second dose was 400 mg. The dose was 600 mg for weeks 3***8211;12. This dose was based on discussions with a number of body builders and our goal to study a relatively "high end" dose (but not maximum) commonly used for large anabolic effects and expected to be well tolerated in 60- to 70-kg men.

Okay on to the part about aromatizing.

Nandrolone decanoate was selected for the possibility that it might be better tolerated than testosterone. Nandrolone is not appreciably aromatized to estrogen (43, 44) and is believed to be associated with less breast engorgement and other androgenic effects that may occur with high doses of testosterone. In fact, nandrolone appeared to be well tolerated in our study. The only common adverse effect was the self-reported testicular shrinkage that would be expected with high doses of androgens suppressing LH and FSH secretion. There were small, but significant, increases in serum hemoglobin of 1.0 and 1.4 g/dL in the two respective treatment groups, but the clinical relevance of this change is uncertain. There was also an approximately 1.5-fold increase in ALT in both groups, which reached statistical significance in the nandrolone only group. There was no clinical evidence of hepatitis, suggesting that these small increases may have been due to the im injections. Of importance, total cholesterol and triglycerides did not increase during the 12 weeks of study therapy. There was actually a significant decrease in total cholesterol documented in the nandrolone only group. However, this does not preclude the possibility that there was a decrease in the high density lipoprotein or an increase in the low density lipoprotein fractions of cholesterol. Although the high doses of nandrolone used in this study did not result in serious adverse events, the safety of such regimens should be confirmed in larger studies, and the risks of longer therapy are uncertain.

A list of the references for use with intext citation verification.

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2. Wheeler DA, Gilbert CL, Launer CA, et al. 1998 Weight loss as a predictor of survival and disease progression in HIV infection. J Acquired Immune Defic Syndr Hum Retroviruses. 18:80***8211;85.[Medline]

3. Macallan DC, McNurlan MA, Milne E, Calder AG, Garlick PJ, Griffin G. 1995 Whole-body protein turnover from leucine kinetics, and the response to nutrition in human immunodeficiency virus infection. Am J Clin Nutri. 61:818***8211;826.

4. Yarasheski KE, Arens M, Horgan MM, Tebas P, Powderly WG. Muscle amino acid metabolism in AIDS-cachexia. Proc of the 5th Conference on Retrovirus and Opportunistic Infections. 1998. (Abstract 474, p. 168)

5. McNurlan MA, Garlick PJ, Steigbigel RT, DeCristofaro KA. 1997 Responsiveness of muscle protein synthesis to growth hormone administration. J Clin Invest. 100:2125***8211;2132.[Medline]

6. Lacey JM, Wilmore DW. 1990 Is glutamine a conditionally essential amino acid? Nutr Rev. 48:297***8211;309.[Medline]
# Ho DD, Neumann AU, Perelson AS, Chen W, Leonard JM, Markowitz M. 1995 Rapid turnover of plasma virions and CD4 lymphocytes in HIV-1 infection. Nature. 373:123***8211;126.[CrossRef][Medline]

7. Grinspoon S, Corcoran C, Lee K, et al. 1996 Loss of lean body and muscle mass correlates with androgen levels in hypogonadal men with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome and wasting. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 81:4051***8211;4058.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

8. Grinspoon S, Corcoran C, Miller K, et al. 1997 Body composition and endocrine function in women with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome wasting. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 82:1332***8211;1337.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

9. Dobs AS, Dempsey MA, Ladenson PW, Polk BF. 1988 Endocrine disorders in men infected with human immunodeficiency virus. Am J Med. 84:611***8211;616.[CrossRef][Medline]

10. Croxson TS, Chapman WE, Miller LK, Levit CD, Senie R, Zumoff B. 1989 Changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in human immunodeficiency virus-infected homosexual men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 68:317***8211;21.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

11. Griggs RC, Kingston W, Jozefowicz RF, Herr BE, Forbes G, Halliday D. 1989 Effect of testosterone on muscle mass and muscle protein synthesis. J Appl Physiol. 66:498***8211;503.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

12. Urban RJ, Bodenburg YH, Gilkison C, et al. 1995 Testosterone administration to elderly men increases skeletal muscle strength and protein synthesis. Am J Physiol. 269:E820***8211;E826.

13. Frost RA, Fuhrer J, Steigbigel R, Mariuz P, Lang CH, Gelato MC. 1996 Wasting in the acquired immune deficiency syndrome is associated with multiple defects in serum insulin-like growth factor system. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 44:501***8211;514.[CrossRef][Medline]

14. Dube MP, Aqeel R, Kumar A, Johnson D, Buchanan TA. Effect of indinavir (IDV) on glucose metabolism in HIV-infected patients initiating IDV therapy. Proc of the 12th World AIDS Conference. 1998. (Abstract 32172A).

15. Walli R, Herfort O, Michl GM, et al. 1998 Treatment with protease inhibitors associated with peripheral insulin resistance and impaired oral glucose tolerance in HIV-1-infected patients. AIDS. 12:F167***8211;173.
16. Bassey EJ, Fiatarone MA, O***8217;Neill EF, Kelly M, Evans WJ, Lipsitz LA. 1992 Leg extensor power and functional performance in very old men and women. Clin Sci (Colch). 82:321***8211;327.
17. Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, et al. 1997 Testosterone replacement increases fat-free mass and muscle size in hypogonadal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 82:407***8211;413.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

18. Grinspoon S, Corcoran C, Askari H, et al. 1998 Effects of androgen administration in men with the AIDS wasting syndrome. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Ann Intern Med. 129:18***8211;26.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

19. Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, et al. 1996 The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men. N Engl J Med. 335:1***8211;7.[CrossRef][Medline]

20. Campbell WW, Crim MC, Young VR, Joseph LJ, Evans WJ. 1995 Effects of resistance training and dietary protein intake on protein metabolism in older adults. Am J Physiol. 268:E1143***8211;E1153.

21. Campbell WW, Crim MC, Young VR, Evans WJ. 1994 Increased energy requirements and changes in body composition with resistance training in older adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 60:167***8211;175.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

22. Hommes MJT, Romijn JA, Endert E, Sauerwein HP. 1991 Resting energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-infected asymptomatic men: HIV affects host metabolism in the early asymptomatic stage. Am J Clin Nutr. 54:311***8211;315.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

23. Melchior JC, Salmon D, Rigaud D, et al. 1991 Resting energy expenditure is increased in stable, malnourished HIV-infected patients. Am J Clin Nutr. 53:437***8211;441.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

24. Grunfeld C, Pang M, Shimizu L, Shigenaga JK, Jensen P, Feingold KR. 1992 Resting energy expenditure, caloric intake, and short-term weight change in human immunodeficiency virus infection and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome. Am J Clin Nutr. 55:455***8211;460.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
25. Gold J, High HA, Li Y, et al. 1996 Safety and efficacy of nandrolone decanoate for treatment of wasting in patients with HIV infection. AIDS. 10:745***8211;752.[Medline]

26. Kushner RF, Gudivaka R, Schoeller DA. 1996 Clinical characteristics influencing bioelectrical impedance analysis measurements. Am J Clin Nutr. 64(Suppl):423S***8211;427S.

27. Fiatarone MA, Marks EC, Ryan ND, Meredith CN, Lipsitz LA, Evans WJ. 1990 High-intensity strength training in nonagenarians. Effects on skeletal muscle. JAMA. 263:3029***8211;3034.

28. Forbes GB. 1985 The effect of anabolic steroids on lean body mass: the dose response curve. Metabolism. 34:571***8211;573.[CrossRef][Medline]

29. Roubenoff R, McDermott A, Weiss L, et al. 1999 Short-term progressive resistance training increases strength and lean body mass in adults infected with human immunodeficiency virus. AIDS. 13:231***8211;239.[CrossRef][Medline]

30. Narci MV, Hoppeler H, Kayser B, et al. 1996 Human quadriceps cross-sectional area, torque and neural activation during 6 months strength training. Acta Phsyiol Scand. 157:175***8211;186.

31. Phillips SM, Tipton KD, Aarsland A, Wolf SE, Wolf RR. 1997 Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am J Physiol. 273:E99***8211;E107.

32. Frontera WR, Meredith CN, O***8217;Reilly KP, Knuttgen HG, Evans WJ. 1988 Strength conditioning in older men: skeletal muscle hypertrophy and improved function. J Appl Physiol. 64:1038***8211;1044.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

33. Fiatarone MA, O***8217;Neill EF, Ryan ND, et al. 1994 Exercise training and nutritional supplementation for physical frailty in very elderly people. N Engl J Med. 330:1769***8211;1775.[CrossRef][Medline]

34. Spence DW, Galantino MLA, Mossberg KA, Zimmerman SO. 1990 Progressive resistance exercise: effect on muscle function and anthropometry of a select AIDS population. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 71:644***8211;648.[Medline]

35. Fielding RA, Manfredi TJ, Ding W, Fiatarone MA, Evans WJ, Cannon JG. 1993 Acute phase response in exercise. III. Neutrophil and IL-1ß accumulation in skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol. 265:R166***8211;R172.

36. Treuth MA, Ryan A, Pratley R, et al. 1994 Effects of strength training on total and regional body composition in older men. J Appl Physiol. 77:614***8211;620.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

37. Ross RJ, Rissanen J, Pedwell H, Clifford J, Shragge P. 1996 Influence of diet and exercise on skeletal muscle and visceral adipose tissue in men. J Appl Physiol. 81:2445***8211;2455.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

38. Forbes GB, Porta CR, Herr BE, Griggs RC. 1992 Sequence of changes in body composition induced by testosterone and reversal of changes after drug is stopped. JAMA. 267:397***8211;399.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

39. Miller KD, Jones E, Yanovski JA, Shankar R, Feuerstein I, Falloon J. 1998 Visceral abdominal-fat accumulation associated with use of indinavir. Lancet. 351:871***8211;875.[CrossRef][Medline]

40. Matsuzawa Y, Nakamura T, Shimomura I, Kotani K. 1995 Visceral fat accumulation and cardiovascular disease. Obes Res. 3(Suppl 5):645S***8211;647S.

41. Nakamura T, Kobayashi H, Yanagi K, et al. 1997 Importance of intra-abdominal visceral fat accumulation to coronary atherosclerosis in heterozygous familial hypercholesterolaemia. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 21:580***8211;586.[CrossRef][Medline]

42. Dintinger T, Gaillard JL, Zwain I, Bouhamidi R, Silberzahn P. 1989 Synthesis and aromatization of 19-norandrogens in the stallion testis. J Steroid Biochem. 32:537***8211;544.[CrossRef][Medline]

43. Sundaram K, Kumar N, Monder C, Bardin CW. 1995 Different patterns of metabolism determine the relative anabolic activity of 19-norandrogens. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 53:253***8211;257.[CrossRef][Medline]

44. Berger D, Bucher G, Cimoch P, al. e. Measurement of body weight and body cell mass in patients receiving highly active antiretroviral thearpy (HAART). Proc of the Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy. 1997. (Abstract 17-I).

As for my statements regarding cortisol. I guess I should thank you for providing articles that backed up what I said. So I guess we are in agreement there that only high doses(2.5mg) of letrozole will cause estrogen rebound thus cortisol rebound.

I commend your dedication. Your arguments were well thought out and the logic was sound. The only fault is in the data which on quick study lead to false conclusions.

I will be honest when I first read through your post I missed the intricacies as well. So no fault to you on that.

I look forward to discussions with you in the future. I think you are a fine contribution to ology and have actually convinced me to stick around. I think you should too. Like I said before no hard feelings on my part regarding the negative reps you sent me.

With growing respect,

Humdiddly

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

this thread officially sucks.

Lol. I dunno the guy is showing genuine effort to provide reliable information. He just seems to do what i used to where I read through something real fast and miss some points. That is just related to a hunger for knowledge that drives our extracurricular reading to extremes. I think he is a valuable addition to ology. I am saying this despite the fact he neg repped me so I think my judgment can be declared bias free.

 

[gorillaglue]

No hard feelings here and no offense taken. I was angry when I made that post, but I was over it 30 minutes afterwards.

I do plan to stick around and am glad to hear that you will be around as well. You are obviously a wealth of knowledge and the ology is lucky to have some of your time (myself included).

BTW, I didn't neg you if you mean rep points (unless I had a senior moment). In fact, I just gave you +1 for your excellent post and very mature response (more mature than mine was).

You are absolutely right about the studies-I blazed through the ones on nandrolone in my irritated state and clearly overlooked some important details (adding estrones to the sample; unchanged estradiol levels; etc). And I'm not really sure why I included the 19-nor derivatives abstract either-rather irrelevant to the discussion.

In any event, thanks for pointing out my oversights. I hate to propagate incorrect information. Personally, I'm just hungry for accurate and detailed information that furthers my understanding of my subjects of interest (lately, AAS, ancillaries, and aminocarnitines).

Anyway, thanks for the much higher quality info on nandrolone-estrogen conversion; that pretty much puts the subject to rest. I knew nandrolone wasn't a big concern with respect to estrogen conversion; I was just pretty sure that -some- conversion was possible.

You've earned my respect.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

 

[gorillaglue]

Somehow, I knew that was coming, no pun intended.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

hahahaha-its all good-j/k

 

[Jose33]

Use of 5-alpha reductase enzymes like finasteride will stop testosterone to DHT conversion. Use 5mg a day and you will have no DHT issues.

Do you think 5mg per day is a little overkill? I think he could use a much lower dose, just my opinion...

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Do you think 5mg per day is a little overkill? I think he could use a much lower dose, just my opinion...

As I previously stated and the OP stated he has prostate issues. 5mg is the clinical dose related to pfizer drug trials. A 218% increase in DHT causes prostate enlargement and 5mg of finasteride counters 218% of conversion. He should be taking the finasteride for his prostate regardless. If his issue was hair loss I would just recommended very low dose finasteride or as a better alternative nizoral.

I think the original issue got lost somewhere along the way. However the OP seems to be distrait anyways.

 

[RJ]

Hum, are you and gorillaglue doing blowing each other, cuz I'm now thinking this guy really IS 125lbs and really shouldn't be doing juice in the first place. Let's move on.

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Hum, are you and gorillaglue doing blowing each other, cuz I'm now thinking this guy really IS 125lbs and really shouldn't be doing juice in the first place. Let's move on.

Hey I am not into the homo. You know I only blow bulls for the anti-estrogenic properties in their semen.

 

[gorillaglue]

Hum, are you and gorillaglue doing blowing each other, cuz I'm now thinking this guy really IS 125lbs and really shouldn't be doing juice in the first place. Let's move on.

It's a circle jerk; grab some vasoline and jump in.

I agree; the OP has been MIA re his NPP cycle. Maybe he will be back in two months with a new post when he actually has some NPP and has already started running it and runs into problems, etc. Then we can talk shit to him for at least 2-3 pages worth.

 

[RJ]

It's a circle jerk; grab some vasoline and jump in.

I agree; the OP has been MIA re his NPP cycle. Maybe he will be back in two months with a new post when he actually has some NPP and has already started running it and runs into problems, etc. Then we can talk shit to him for at least 2-3 pages worth.

I'm sure he's writing down his 10 best comebacks as we speak.

"should I start with fuck bag or douche knuckle? Damn its hard being clever!"

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

I'm sure he's writing down his 10 best comebacks as we speak.

"should I start with fuck bag or douche knuckle? Damn its hard being clever!"

I can only EMAGEN!

 

[juced_porkchop]

bad idea!
period
btw test DOES NOT give you prostate cancer! lol

 

[TonySuicideKing]

if your so concerned about the risks then why even think about doing AAS?

 

[gorillaglue]

bad idea!
period
btw test DOES NOT give you prostate cancer! lol

I agree OP-it's all that butt sex that is going to ruin your prostate.

 

[Booger1]

Although this thread started some absolutely unnecessary monkey like behavior, I thank the gorilla and Mr. Diddly for their contributions. I also propose that the data produced by these two warrants turning this into a sticky... or maybe we could at least take those few posts and put them in a prominent place.

PS... the ivory tower is just fine where it is.