SWALE on some TRT drama...very good info with the drama
Well, I just visited Cutting Edge Muscle, and was quite shocked at what I found there. It turns out JGUNS, owner, has decided to smear me on that Board. Perhaps it is time for me to respond. I have been asked repeatedly why I chose to leave that Board, and the HRT Forum I worked so hard to start there, but have until now held my tongue, as I believed that was the gracious thing to do. However, now I am feel like I have to speak out, and so will do so.
What is this REALLY about? A month or so ago this guy all of a sudden pops up on the HRT Forum at CEM and starts spewing all this nonsense about how, for instance, “200mg is the usual dose for TRT”. He then conveniently adds that he runs some sort of a HRT clinic, and starts trolling for business. I responded (as I always would) that 200mg per week of test cyp will take most men to an unhealthful T level about twice the top of normal range, and that same could never be considered true “TRT” (you have all heard me make that very point many times, ad nausem). As you all know, Anti-Aging medicine is all about optimizing health and fitness, not doing steroid doses (which is what twice the top of normal range is). Because he was not a paid sponsor, I also deleted his advertising, as any Mod would. I did not attack him, or do anything which would lower the prestige of the Forum.
As I am quite familiar with the charlatans who run these so-called “HRT Clinics”, I immediately narrowed down who this guy could be representing to three possible such operations. JGUNS told me who they were, and sure enough, it was one of the three, and I already knew of their “program” (which is what they sell). Just to be sure, I reviewed their website. There I quickly found enough nonsense to confirm my suspicions.
These guys are not operating in any way, shape or form in any manner which could be described as legitimate Anti-Aging Medicine. They provide testosterone at unhealthy dosages, and do so as a pre-sold “program”. Those of you who are my patients already know that I constantly tinker with dosing and meds until we together maximize health benefits, and that doing so can take several months. So how could anyone know up front how exactly much medication to provide? And the mens’ health information provided there is poorly written, and very much out-of-date. Probably enough to convince the naïve man who is suffering horribly from hypogonadism, and will do ANYTHING to try to feel better, though, and I am sure that is what they are counting on. I know, I pick up new patients all the time from these other guys (including from this very same clinic), and it usually takes me several months to get them straightened out.
The fact they do not even post their prices on their website is interesting. The guy representing them, who goes by “pfjoy” just posted that you have to call them to find out what their prices are. Why on earth would that be? Do they want to know up front how much you are willing to spend before deciding what the price will be? How legitimate! I also suspect they are selling inferior compounded products at vastly inflated prices (it costs about $10 to put testosterone in a bottle), as all the other Internet “HRT Clinics” do. It’s all about the money to them, NOT mens’ health. That is precisely why I dispense only genuine Upjohn test cyp and Androgel, and have NEVER made a single penny from dispensing the meds, as I provide them all at my cost.
I sent this gentleman a PM, graciously pointing out the rules. His response was hostile and childish, to say the least. We ended up emailing back and forth, where I even generously offered to help train his “doctors” on how to properly administer HRT, as I do this every day as part of my regular work. Let’s just say that he would have none of it. I will be happy to provide these emails to anyone who may be interested.
I told JGUNS that I simply could not be associated with such charlatans, as I catch enough heat already in the conventional medical community because I chose to get on the Boards. Those of us who provide legitimate testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) have a steep enough hill to climb already (with all the doctors out there who still tell their patients that “if you take testosterone, you will get prostate cancer”) for me to be associated with doctors who are, essentially, just steroid dealers. And I certainly have no interest in wasting my time constantly correcting their “doctors” when they post information which is detrimental to the health of the Members. I built the four HRT Forums I Moderate (now three, of course) for one purpose only: to help men become healthier and happier. And I will NEVER sell out on my commitment to same. No matter what.
Within a couple days of that time, JGUNS and I had a very long phone conversation, extending well beyond midnight on what was a work day that had begun for me the day before, and will again, at 5AM. I told him everything I share with you all here now. He then promised me that the health of the Members of CEM means more to him than this one Sponsor, and that he would not accept any advertising from these charlatans. He also said this “pfjoy” character said he was canceling payment on the check he wrote to CEM (as he told me in an email he was going to), and that he had no further interest in involvement with CEM. I figured he just realized that he was not going to be allowed to rip off the Members, so was giving up. Based upon JGUNS’ promise, we went on to discuss me offering a couple new lines of mens’ health products I am in the process of endorsing exclusively through his new store, and I followed up our conversation immediately with an extended call to Nick Delgado, PhD, on the West Coast, to apprise him of same. Well, it turns out ‘Ol Doc wasted all that sleep for nothing. Because a couple days later I find out that JGUNS is bragging on the HRT Forum that these new guys are going to be there. Even after all this, my exit was prompt and gracious. The thread announcing my departure is still on CEM.
So, a couple weeks later, JGUNS emails me and tries to make nice. I figure he finally realized that he had just bought a pig in a poke, as we say. Activity on the HRT Forum had all but dried up, and he himself is getting on there, desperately trying to answer questions (why he would consider himself qualified is still a mystery to me). He says he wants me to come back, and that this “pfjoy” character claims to have been writing a letter during our initial communications to establish a working relationship with me, and still wants to. JGUNS also advises me that it would be in my best interest to work with these charlatans. As if! Has he STILL learned nothing about my morals and professional ethics? I pointed out this “pfjoy” guy’s claims were a complete fallacy, and a quick review of the emails I provided of those conversations easily proved the validity of my point, and SHOULD have demonstrated the kind of people JGUNS is choosing to deal with. My impression now of JGUNS is that he does indeed know, but simply does not care. I guess once he realized that I stand firmly on principle, he decided to try to smear me instead.
I am more disappointed in JGUNS than I can find the words to say. It is one thing to sell out to financial interest, to the detriment of the Bro’s. But it is even worse to smear someone who has volunteered literally hundreds of hours away from a very busy medical practice, whose only concern was the health and well-being of the Members. I will now address a few of the hurtful comments he posted. They may not be exactly verbatim, and certainly are not all-inclusive, as after just a few minutes of shock and disappointment, my stomach was so turned that I simply logged off. For instance:
Their “HRT Expert” “has more knowledge in just his little finger” than I possess. Funny, I have never heard of him, and I rub elbows with the finest minds in my field every day. As I told this “pfjoy” guy, I doubt any of their docs could hang with me for 30 seconds in a discussion on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine, and challenged him to do so. No response, of course. Sour grapes from me? Yup—but if you are going to challenge me, you had BETTER come to the table ready to bring the goods! There are reasons why I have developed two brand new testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) treatment protocols already (and am fine-tuning my third as we speak).
JGUNS also brags that this doctor is a Surgeon. That comment would bring snickers from anyone in the medical community. Even were he an Endocrinologist, I train Endo’s in how to properly administer testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) all the time. I also have at least a hundred patients who were formerly being treated for their hypogonadism by an Endo, but now want the best TRT.
I am gong to predict that whoever their “HRT Expert” is will have a tough time on the CEM HRT Forum, as the members there have already been well-educated on TRUE testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine. They will sniff him out the first paragraph he writes.
JGUNS says that I “put my interests over those of the Board”. Well, I have to give him that one. Make no bones about it, my SOLE interest is in improving mens’ health. No ifs, ands or buts about it. We shall see how long these charlatans stick with CEM, once they realize that they simply cannot make enough money there to make it worth while from a financial standpoint (which is why I have never found it financially wise to pay for a banner anywhere). I never have, and I am the only legitimate HRT physician on the Boards. Perhaps someday these poor souls will realize that a life lived for a true cause is more abundant than one in service to financial gain.
That they have REAL doctors who can prescribe medications. Well, they already had a REAL doctor who prescribes Upjohn, Androgel, HCG, Arimidex, Nolvadex, Clomid, etc. every single day.
Given what I found there this morning, no wonder JGUNS cut my automatic email notification to the thread where he attacks me. Did he think I just would never find out? I noticed he also deleted the stickies I posted there in order to make permanent medical info for the Members. Why would he do that? Was it so the disparity between “The Labs I Run” and what these new guys do will not be made evident? I do not think that is going to work.
I have invited several other well-known LEGITIMATE HRT Physicians to help out on my HRT Forums. None would do so (perhaps worried about something just like this happening). JGUNS recently posted the URL for Cenegenics, the most prestigious HRT Clinic in America, and I was absolutely delighted, as I would welcome their participation (BTW, Cenegenics and I have differences in our treatment protocols, but that is just a matter of physician’s discretion), as I at first thought that meant they were going to become a Sponsor. I would welcome legitimate discussion on HRT medicine from QUALIFIED individuals, and, as I told JGUNS, would truly enjoy the camaraderie of my colleagues. It would also mean the Boards had finally gained a foothold in legitimate HRT medicine, after all my work to try to establish same. What happened at CEM sets us back years.
As mentioned previously, subject of my conversation with JGUNS was also the fact that I am getting ready to personally endorse two new lines of mens’ health products (as soon as enough of my own patients have told me they like them and we have all the labs back to prove efficacy). Yes, I can FINALLY improve mens’ health AND make a few coins in doing so! As he initiated the discussion about me offering them through the Boards, I felt I owed it to him to list them only through the new store he is putting together, as he has broken his arrangement with Ulter. Who would spend precious time and resources developing a business operation with someone who has shown that he will promise one thing one day, then do exactly the opposite (behind your back) the next? Up until today, I really believed JGUNS to be an honorable man (he sure tried to sound like one as he was while trying to talk me into coming back). But his actions are so far contrary to any such impression. Now, of course, my ethical obligation to him no longer is in effect, and I am deciding which single Board will distribute them.
A rather famous guy from one of the Boards who I have gotten to know quite well advised me that I should not post this, because doing so will only serve to provide free advertising for these charlatans. But I had to indulge my well-known temper just a bit (I hope you all have not found me to be too ungentlemanly). Besides that, my patients are intelligent men who are seriously interested in optimizing their health and fitness, NOT in seeing how much testosterone they can try to get from a doctor. They want instant access to the most cutting edge protocols, NOT have their medical care determined by someone else’s profit margin. And it won’t take long for the Members to realize these guys are MUCH more expensive than I am. Besides that, these Internet “HRT Clinics” are a dime a dozen out there.
I have taken a lot of abuse thus far from individuals who, in the interest of either their own financial gain, or their ego’s, have resented my involvement in the Boards. All have been shown, eventually, for who and what they really are. This is just one more sad example. Don’t worry, good Bro’s, ‘Ol Doc has broad shoulders. I will still be around, trying to help out where and when I can. I am just learning where to do that.
CEM is JGUNS Board, and he certainly may do with it as he chooses. I also appreciate how much time, work and expense goes into maintaining such a Board. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to make money by providing supplements and (legitimate) services. However, I draw the line when we get into a situation where you are purposefully damaging the health of others in order to do so. It is as simple as that. You all have been made privy to the inside skinny on what really happened between me and CEM. As always, I stand upon my word.
I hope we can put this mess to rest now, and spend our time in more healthful pursuit.
Well, I just visited Cutting Edge Muscle, and was quite shocked at what I found there. It turns out JGUNS, owner, has decided to smear me on that Board. Perhaps it is time for me to respond. I have been asked repeatedly why I chose to leave that Board, and the HRT Forum I worked so hard to start there, but have until now held my tongue, as I believed that was the gracious thing to do. However, now I am feel like I have to speak out, and so will do so.
What is this REALLY about? A month or so ago this guy all of a sudden pops up on the HRT Forum at CEM and starts spewing all this nonsense about how, for instance, “200mg is the usual dose for TRT”. He then conveniently adds that he runs some sort of a HRT clinic, and starts trolling for business. I responded (as I always would) that 200mg per week of test cyp will take most men to an unhealthful T level about twice the top of normal range, and that same could never be considered true “TRT” (you have all heard me make that very point many times, ad nausem). As you all know, Anti-Aging medicine is all about optimizing health and fitness, not doing steroid doses (which is what twice the top of normal range is). Because he was not a paid sponsor, I also deleted his advertising, as any Mod would. I did not attack him, or do anything which would lower the prestige of the Forum.
As I am quite familiar with the charlatans who run these so-called “HRT Clinics”, I immediately narrowed down who this guy could be representing to three possible such operations. JGUNS told me who they were, and sure enough, it was one of the three, and I already knew of their “program” (which is what they sell). Just to be sure, I reviewed their website. There I quickly found enough nonsense to confirm my suspicions.
These guys are not operating in any way, shape or form in any manner which could be described as legitimate Anti-Aging Medicine. They provide testosterone at unhealthy dosages, and do so as a pre-sold “program”. Those of you who are my patients already know that I constantly tinker with dosing and meds until we together maximize health benefits, and that doing so can take several months. So how could anyone know up front how exactly much medication to provide? And the mens’ health information provided there is poorly written, and very much out-of-date. Probably enough to convince the naïve man who is suffering horribly from hypogonadism, and will do ANYTHING to try to feel better, though, and I am sure that is what they are counting on. I know, I pick up new patients all the time from these other guys (including from this very same clinic), and it usually takes me several months to get them straightened out.
The fact they do not even post their prices on their website is interesting. The guy representing them, who goes by “pfjoy” just posted that you have to call them to find out what their prices are. Why on earth would that be? Do they want to know up front how much you are willing to spend before deciding what the price will be? How legitimate! I also suspect they are selling inferior compounded products at vastly inflated prices (it costs about $10 to put testosterone in a bottle), as all the other Internet “HRT Clinics” do. It’s all about the money to them, NOT mens’ health. That is precisely why I dispense only genuine Upjohn test cyp and Androgel, and have NEVER made a single penny from dispensing the meds, as I provide them all at my cost.
I sent this gentleman a PM, graciously pointing out the rules. His response was hostile and childish, to say the least. We ended up emailing back and forth, where I even generously offered to help train his “doctors” on how to properly administer HRT, as I do this every day as part of my regular work. Let’s just say that he would have none of it. I will be happy to provide these emails to anyone who may be interested.
I told JGUNS that I simply could not be associated with such charlatans, as I catch enough heat already in the conventional medical community because I chose to get on the Boards. Those of us who provide legitimate testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) have a steep enough hill to climb already (with all the doctors out there who still tell their patients that “if you take testosterone, you will get prostate cancer”) for me to be associated with doctors who are, essentially, just steroid dealers. And I certainly have no interest in wasting my time constantly correcting their “doctors” when they post information which is detrimental to the health of the Members. I built the four HRT Forums I Moderate (now three, of course) for one purpose only: to help men become healthier and happier. And I will NEVER sell out on my commitment to same. No matter what.
Within a couple days of that time, JGUNS and I had a very long phone conversation, extending well beyond midnight on what was a work day that had begun for me the day before, and will again, at 5AM. I told him everything I share with you all here now. He then promised me that the health of the Members of CEM means more to him than this one Sponsor, and that he would not accept any advertising from these charlatans. He also said this “pfjoy” character said he was canceling payment on the check he wrote to CEM (as he told me in an email he was going to), and that he had no further interest in involvement with CEM. I figured he just realized that he was not going to be allowed to rip off the Members, so was giving up. Based upon JGUNS’ promise, we went on to discuss me offering a couple new lines of mens’ health products I am in the process of endorsing exclusively through his new store, and I followed up our conversation immediately with an extended call to Nick Delgado, PhD, on the West Coast, to apprise him of same. Well, it turns out ‘Ol Doc wasted all that sleep for nothing. Because a couple days later I find out that JGUNS is bragging on the HRT Forum that these new guys are going to be there. Even after all this, my exit was prompt and gracious. The thread announcing my departure is still on CEM.
So, a couple weeks later, JGUNS emails me and tries to make nice. I figure he finally realized that he had just bought a pig in a poke, as we say. Activity on the HRT Forum had all but dried up, and he himself is getting on there, desperately trying to answer questions (why he would consider himself qualified is still a mystery to me). He says he wants me to come back, and that this “pfjoy” character claims to have been writing a letter during our initial communications to establish a working relationship with me, and still wants to. JGUNS also advises me that it would be in my best interest to work with these charlatans. As if! Has he STILL learned nothing about my morals and professional ethics? I pointed out this “pfjoy” guy’s claims were a complete fallacy, and a quick review of the emails I provided of those conversations easily proved the validity of my point, and SHOULD have demonstrated the kind of people JGUNS is choosing to deal with. My impression now of JGUNS is that he does indeed know, but simply does not care. I guess once he realized that I stand firmly on principle, he decided to try to smear me instead.
I am more disappointed in JGUNS than I can find the words to say. It is one thing to sell out to financial interest, to the detriment of the Bro’s. But it is even worse to smear someone who has volunteered literally hundreds of hours away from a very busy medical practice, whose only concern was the health and well-being of the Members. I will now address a few of the hurtful comments he posted. They may not be exactly verbatim, and certainly are not all-inclusive, as after just a few minutes of shock and disappointment, my stomach was so turned that I simply logged off. For instance:
Their “HRT Expert” “has more knowledge in just his little finger” than I possess. Funny, I have never heard of him, and I rub elbows with the finest minds in my field every day. As I told this “pfjoy” guy, I doubt any of their docs could hang with me for 30 seconds in a discussion on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine, and challenged him to do so. No response, of course. Sour grapes from me? Yup—but if you are going to challenge me, you had BETTER come to the table ready to bring the goods! There are reasons why I have developed two brand new testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) treatment protocols already (and am fine-tuning my third as we speak).
JGUNS also brags that this doctor is a Surgeon. That comment would bring snickers from anyone in the medical community. Even were he an Endocrinologist, I train Endo’s in how to properly administer testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) all the time. I also have at least a hundred patients who were formerly being treated for their hypogonadism by an Endo, but now want the best TRT.
I am gong to predict that whoever their “HRT Expert” is will have a tough time on the CEM HRT Forum, as the members there have already been well-educated on TRUE testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine. They will sniff him out the first paragraph he writes.
JGUNS says that I “put my interests over those of the Board”. Well, I have to give him that one. Make no bones about it, my SOLE interest is in improving mens’ health. No ifs, ands or buts about it. We shall see how long these charlatans stick with CEM, once they realize that they simply cannot make enough money there to make it worth while from a financial standpoint (which is why I have never found it financially wise to pay for a banner anywhere). I never have, and I am the only legitimate HRT physician on the Boards. Perhaps someday these poor souls will realize that a life lived for a true cause is more abundant than one in service to financial gain.
That they have REAL doctors who can prescribe medications. Well, they already had a REAL doctor who prescribes Upjohn, Androgel, HCG, Arimidex, Nolvadex, Clomid, etc. every single day.
Given what I found there this morning, no wonder JGUNS cut my automatic email notification to the thread where he attacks me. Did he think I just would never find out? I noticed he also deleted the stickies I posted there in order to make permanent medical info for the Members. Why would he do that? Was it so the disparity between “The Labs I Run” and what these new guys do will not be made evident? I do not think that is going to work.
I have invited several other well-known LEGITIMATE HRT Physicians to help out on my HRT Forums. None would do so (perhaps worried about something just like this happening). JGUNS recently posted the URL for Cenegenics, the most prestigious HRT Clinic in America, and I was absolutely delighted, as I would welcome their participation (BTW, Cenegenics and I have differences in our treatment protocols, but that is just a matter of physician’s discretion), as I at first thought that meant they were going to become a Sponsor. I would welcome legitimate discussion on HRT medicine from QUALIFIED individuals, and, as I told JGUNS, would truly enjoy the camaraderie of my colleagues. It would also mean the Boards had finally gained a foothold in legitimate HRT medicine, after all my work to try to establish same. What happened at CEM sets us back years.
As mentioned previously, subject of my conversation with JGUNS was also the fact that I am getting ready to personally endorse two new lines of mens’ health products (as soon as enough of my own patients have told me they like them and we have all the labs back to prove efficacy). Yes, I can FINALLY improve mens’ health AND make a few coins in doing so! As he initiated the discussion about me offering them through the Boards, I felt I owed it to him to list them only through the new store he is putting together, as he has broken his arrangement with Ulter. Who would spend precious time and resources developing a business operation with someone who has shown that he will promise one thing one day, then do exactly the opposite (behind your back) the next? Up until today, I really believed JGUNS to be an honorable man (he sure tried to sound like one as he was while trying to talk me into coming back). But his actions are so far contrary to any such impression. Now, of course, my ethical obligation to him no longer is in effect, and I am deciding which single Board will distribute them.
A rather famous guy from one of the Boards who I have gotten to know quite well advised me that I should not post this, because doing so will only serve to provide free advertising for these charlatans. But I had to indulge my well-known temper just a bit (I hope you all have not found me to be too ungentlemanly). Besides that, my patients are intelligent men who are seriously interested in optimizing their health and fitness, NOT in seeing how much testosterone they can try to get from a doctor. They want instant access to the most cutting edge protocols, NOT have their medical care determined by someone else’s profit margin. And it won’t take long for the Members to realize these guys are MUCH more expensive than I am. Besides that, these Internet “HRT Clinics” are a dime a dozen out there.
I have taken a lot of abuse thus far from individuals who, in the interest of either their own financial gain, or their ego’s, have resented my involvement in the Boards. All have been shown, eventually, for who and what they really are. This is just one more sad example. Don’t worry, good Bro’s, ‘Ol Doc has broad shoulders. I will still be around, trying to help out where and when I can. I am just learning where to do that.
CEM is JGUNS Board, and he certainly may do with it as he chooses. I also appreciate how much time, work and expense goes into maintaining such a Board. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to make money by providing supplements and (legitimate) services. However, I draw the line when we get into a situation where you are purposefully damaging the health of others in order to do so. It is as simple as that. You all have been made privy to the inside skinny on what really happened between me and CEM. As always, I stand upon my word.
I hope we can put this mess to rest now, and spend our time in more healthful pursuit.
