SWALE on some testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) drama...very good info with the drama
- Thread starter SWALE
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Sorry, Biggie, I did not think I was going after your guy there. Just airing both sides, as we say.
The simple point to be made is that these guys are NOT providing testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). They are selling steroids. And they do not take a legitimate Medical History, require physical examination, or even proper labwork. All they want to do is sell drugs. And their protocols are ridiculous, as they sell "programs", therefore they do not actually have testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocols. So they cannot provide any reasonable debate on that topic. For them to be positioned as legitimate HRT doctors is a gross misrepresentation, and an insult to those of us who have dedicated our professional careers to improving mens' health.
These Internet so-called "HRT Clinics" are all over the 'Net, baker's dozen for a dime.
As this is a new field of medicine, there is MUCH variance of opinion (amongst legitimate HRT Physicians) on what to do. We are a long way from knowing what is best to do yet. But most of what I have found so far that AA physicians do which is different from me is based upon their lack of experience and/or knowledge. For instance, few know how to best use HCG, or the other ancillaries. They may "cycle" HRT, which makes no sense. Or they might wait until a guy's testicles are thge size of raisins before they treat them. Or they may drive a man's estrogen too low because they may drive a man's estrogen too low (usually because they just want to sell more drugs for more profit). I know--I train them.
Or, for instance, some may prefer testosterone pellets which, to me, is barbaric and makes little sense for several reasons which I detailed in the paper I wrote, recently published by the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. But many docs still like them, so we just have a matter of physician's discretion there. I can poignantly debate while I do things the way I do, but that is neither here nor there.
On the other hand, the heavy weights such as Shippen, Hertoghe, etc. are into new things, or just do feel their are better ways to use the meds than I do. I had a long converation with Dr. Shippen a few months ago, and he told me he thinks he is really onto something which will better endogenously increase T levels. Well, once he releases his ideas, I will be very eager to give them a good look, and perhaps try them out. And Dr. Hertoghe is one doctor whose feet I sit at, happy for any bones he may throw to me. The guy is practically a God, IMPO. So if anyone were to take any docs word as gospel, it owul dbe him. Shoot, he has forgotten more than I will ever know (although the idea of him EVER forgetting ANYTHING is doubtful. LOL). Either way, both men were interested in my ideas and experiences, and told me I had shared things with them that they had not realized. This is the REAL value of these medical conferences--the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, over dinner and drinks (frequently applying too many drinks can be especially helpful, which loosens the tongues mightily).
I have invited other LEGITIMATE HRT docs to join me on the HRT Forums I Moderate, but none have wanted to. Perhaps they were afraid of something like this happening to them, when all they want to do is improve mens' health.
This has NEVER been about the money to me. If it were, I would not be losing tons of it by donating time away from my practice in order to help the Bro's. I just feel that I can use this as a medium to help even more people than I would otherwise. Look how many guys have taken my protocols to their own docs! I freely give them away. And if I wanted to do this for the money, I certainly would not be the ONLY doctor on the Internet who does not make a single penny from the medications. So it is SO insulting to have the people who really ARE only about making money disparage my good name.
The simple point to be made is that these guys are NOT providing testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). They are selling steroids. And they do not take a legitimate Medical History, require physical examination, or even proper labwork. All they want to do is sell drugs. And their protocols are ridiculous, as they sell "programs", therefore they do not actually have testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocols. So they cannot provide any reasonable debate on that topic. For them to be positioned as legitimate HRT doctors is a gross misrepresentation, and an insult to those of us who have dedicated our professional careers to improving mens' health.
These Internet so-called "HRT Clinics" are all over the 'Net, baker's dozen for a dime.
As this is a new field of medicine, there is MUCH variance of opinion (amongst legitimate HRT Physicians) on what to do. We are a long way from knowing what is best to do yet. But most of what I have found so far that AA physicians do which is different from me is based upon their lack of experience and/or knowledge. For instance, few know how to best use HCG, or the other ancillaries. They may "cycle" HRT, which makes no sense. Or they might wait until a guy's testicles are thge size of raisins before they treat them. Or they may drive a man's estrogen too low because they may drive a man's estrogen too low (usually because they just want to sell more drugs for more profit). I know--I train them.
Or, for instance, some may prefer testosterone pellets which, to me, is barbaric and makes little sense for several reasons which I detailed in the paper I wrote, recently published by the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. But many docs still like them, so we just have a matter of physician's discretion there. I can poignantly debate while I do things the way I do, but that is neither here nor there.
On the other hand, the heavy weights such as Shippen, Hertoghe, etc. are into new things, or just do feel their are better ways to use the meds than I do. I had a long converation with Dr. Shippen a few months ago, and he told me he thinks he is really onto something which will better endogenously increase T levels. Well, once he releases his ideas, I will be very eager to give them a good look, and perhaps try them out. And Dr. Hertoghe is one doctor whose feet I sit at, happy for any bones he may throw to me. The guy is practically a God, IMPO. So if anyone were to take any docs word as gospel, it owul dbe him. Shoot, he has forgotten more than I will ever know (although the idea of him EVER forgetting ANYTHING is doubtful. LOL). Either way, both men were interested in my ideas and experiences, and told me I had shared things with them that they had not realized. This is the REAL value of these medical conferences--the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, over dinner and drinks (frequently applying too many drinks can be especially helpful, which loosens the tongues mightily).
I have invited other LEGITIMATE HRT docs to join me on the HRT Forums I Moderate, but none have wanted to. Perhaps they were afraid of something like this happening to them, when all they want to do is improve mens' health.
This has NEVER been about the money to me. If it were, I would not be losing tons of it by donating time away from my practice in order to help the Bro's. I just feel that I can use this as a medium to help even more people than I would otherwise. Look how many guys have taken my protocols to their own docs! I freely give them away. And if I wanted to do this for the money, I certainly would not be the ONLY doctor on the Internet who does not make a single penny from the medications. So it is SO insulting to have the people who really ARE only about making money disparage my good name.
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BiggieSwolls
Steelers = SuperBowl
SWALE said:
I definitely understand that your 'beef' is that these particular Docs over at CEM may be harming members with their practice of administering higher dosages of Testosterone. Im just saying that I myself have never seen a post by any of these Docs so its hard for me to jump on the "they are harming the members" because I havent seen what they have to say about why they prescribe the dosages they prescribe.
My personal feeling is that having known of Nandi and JGUNS for a couple years now and even having worked with them over at Triedia (before it went to shit), I find it hard to believe that Nandi and JGUNS are making this move knowing full well that the new Docs are harming the members. Shit, knowing Nandi, Im sure he is researching everything he can on HRT as we speak so that he can make sure that no one affiliated with CEM would be harming members.
I just think that there has been a bit of a "jump the gun" type mentality taken here since I dont know of one single post that has been posted by these Docs. Who knows? They may post a theory that supports their stance on HRT, I dont know. But I think that attacking them before they even have a say in the matter is not the right thing. Painting them like a bad guy now is not giving them a fair chance and I think they at least deserve that, just like any other new sponsor or affiliated company would deserve. Thats just my take as an outsider. All the sudden a thread appears on my board talking about how bad a certain HRT company is and I havent seen them take their stand so I just think its fair to wait and see what their Doctors have to say. At that point Im sure a debate on this forum or over at CEM will ensue but until then, we should keep this discussion about HRT and not about attacking potential sponsors at other boards who have not had a chance to defend their practices.
SWALE: Are you telling me that if Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) were legal to prescribe for cosmetic uses, you would not prescribe them? Are you saying that it is not possible to use them to build muscle in a safe way? Are you also saying that the thousands of plastic surgeons that peform cosmetic surgery are irresponsible for doing so? Legalities aside, I would be willing to bet you that plastic surgery accounts for many more deaths than Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) usage. And consider this... almost ALL Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) usage is done by the individual with little or no oversight by ANYONE. Plastic surgery is done every day by licensed medical practitioners for the most part in clean, sterile operating rooms or clinics and the outcomes are often fatal.....
Legalities aside, Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) usage is safer than plastic surgery..
Are you telling me that 250MG of Test Enth per week for 10 weeks is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY detrimental to my health, when followed by good post cycle therapy (pct)?
I understand your position in terms of the legal issue, but I think it is disingenous for you to say that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) ,hrt and wasting diseases are the only legitimate uses of steroids.. (not speaking legally, speaking in terms of real, everyday life) Steroids can help change one's appearance dramatically and this can be done safely. There are side effects to everything included hrt and testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Hrt and testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) can also damage a person's health in some cases. Would you not be in favor of doctors being able to prescribe cycles and post cycle therapy (pct) to atheletes if it were legal? The alternative (which is what we have today) would be for individuals to seek information on message boards, make their decisions without real medical oversite and purchase substances which may make them sick and might have legal consequences.
Having said all that... my question to you is...
Wouldnt you rather have doctors prescribing cycles legally than individuals running around self prescribing what could be dangerous drugs if not used properly? You say that doctrs that prescribe more than 200mg/wk are doing their patients harm. How much more harm is done by individuals doing this without proper oversight?
Legalities aside, Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) usage is safer than plastic surgery..
Are you telling me that 250MG of Test Enth per week for 10 weeks is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY detrimental to my health, when followed by good post cycle therapy (pct)?
I understand your position in terms of the legal issue, but I think it is disingenous for you to say that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) ,hrt and wasting diseases are the only legitimate uses of steroids.. (not speaking legally, speaking in terms of real, everyday life) Steroids can help change one's appearance dramatically and this can be done safely. There are side effects to everything included hrt and testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Hrt and testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) can also damage a person's health in some cases. Would you not be in favor of doctors being able to prescribe cycles and post cycle therapy (pct) to atheletes if it were legal? The alternative (which is what we have today) would be for individuals to seek information on message boards, make their decisions without real medical oversite and purchase substances which may make them sick and might have legal consequences.
Having said all that... my question to you is...
Wouldnt you rather have doctors prescribing cycles legally than individuals running around self prescribing what could be dangerous drugs if not used properly? You say that doctrs that prescribe more than 200mg/wk are doing their patients harm. How much more harm is done by individuals doing this without proper oversight?
Biggie--Fair enough. But I have shared my observations of them because I have (1) gone to their website and thoroughly reviewed it, as a professional in this field, (2) read what their representative wrote on CEM about their "treatments" (3) directly challenged them already on this subject, to no avail and (4) had more than one of their "patients" come to me for treatment. These guys told me everything about what they did to them. It took me several months in each case to get the patients straightened out hormonally. IOW, I speak from a position of knowledge and authority. I am not just making this stuff up. And that is precisely why it so sucked to have the Forum I spent so much time working on turned into a medium for dealing steroids. At that point, I had no choice, I HAD to leave.
dustoff1--Well, you have painted me into a corner on that one. You have an uncanny ability to see things for what they are. However, in this case, I think I'll have to remain silent. It is a complicated issue, to be sure, with several poignant analogies challenging our society as we speak.
How many guys are ONLY going to do one 10 week cycle in their lives?
And, yes, I do have patients who are severely hypogonadal now, after just ONE cycle. It does happen. They came to me as a mess hormonally.
One person dies as a result of the statistical fallibility of ALL surgical procedures, and it is big news, with a big setlement. Once you have survived the procedure, the risk is over. But we do not yet know how many men will suffer premature heart attacks and strokes because of their previous steroid usage. Steroids are definitely NOT safe to do, and should not ever be categorized as such. As with many things in life, it is a matter of risk/benefit ratio. I enjoy fine beers, scotch, and a couple of good cigars each week (got one in my mouth right now). But I know, and accept, that I am paying a price for these tastes from my health's standpoint. But I figure I am more likely to die after being shot by a jealous husband! Just kidding.
Obviously it is my professional opinion that a knowledgeable steroid user is a safer steroid user. And that it is best to include a physician's monitoring while "on". If I did not, I would not be here, or provide ancillaries and post cycle therapy (pct) for my patients. And believe me, I have taken some BRUTAL abuse from my colleagues for my positions on these subjects.
We have yet to find any detrimental effects of APPROPRIATE testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). So you missed on that one.
Maybe I can sum it up for you by saying that true testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is all about optimizing health. And you do that by taking T levels to the upper quartile of normal range--not higher.
These are big questions, important ones. It is good to discuss them here.
How many guys are ONLY going to do one 10 week cycle in their lives?
And, yes, I do have patients who are severely hypogonadal now, after just ONE cycle. It does happen. They came to me as a mess hormonally.
One person dies as a result of the statistical fallibility of ALL surgical procedures, and it is big news, with a big setlement. Once you have survived the procedure, the risk is over. But we do not yet know how many men will suffer premature heart attacks and strokes because of their previous steroid usage. Steroids are definitely NOT safe to do, and should not ever be categorized as such. As with many things in life, it is a matter of risk/benefit ratio. I enjoy fine beers, scotch, and a couple of good cigars each week (got one in my mouth right now). But I know, and accept, that I am paying a price for these tastes from my health's standpoint. But I figure I am more likely to die after being shot by a jealous husband! Just kidding.
Obviously it is my professional opinion that a knowledgeable steroid user is a safer steroid user. And that it is best to include a physician's monitoring while "on". If I did not, I would not be here, or provide ancillaries and post cycle therapy (pct) for my patients. And believe me, I have taken some BRUTAL abuse from my colleagues for my positions on these subjects.
We have yet to find any detrimental effects of APPROPRIATE testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). So you missed on that one.
Maybe I can sum it up for you by saying that true testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is all about optimizing health. And you do that by taking T levels to the upper quartile of normal range--not higher.
These are big questions, important ones. It is good to discuss them here.
Hey, this is not bloodletting, this is rational discussion....
Swale: I think I understand where you are coming from... You are doing what you are able to do withing the confines of the law. I know that the law is wrong and you know it as well, but remain wisely silent on the issue..
I enjoyed the exchange... After a period of time, I may seek consultation myself.... I do have a doctor that is not shy to prescribe testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), but he probably does not have near the knowledge that you do..
Do you offer any general guidelines or protocol that you share with other physicians? I would like to get my trt/hrt covered by my health insurance and if I can provide my doctor with any reasonable protocol, he will prescribe it... I am certianly willing to provide you with a consultation fee as well when that becomes necessary...
Swale: I think I understand where you are coming from... You are doing what you are able to do withing the confines of the law. I know that the law is wrong and you know it as well, but remain wisely silent on the issue..
I enjoyed the exchange... After a period of time, I may seek consultation myself.... I do have a doctor that is not shy to prescribe testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), but he probably does not have near the knowledge that you do..
Do you offer any general guidelines or protocol that you share with other physicians? I would like to get my trt/hrt covered by my health insurance and if I can provide my doctor with any reasonable protocol, he will prescribe it... I am certianly willing to provide you with a consultation fee as well when that becomes necessary...
Dustoff,
Actually, my comment was not directed to anyone in particular. I enjoyed your post. It was quite to the point and refreshing to read.
I am just saying that the man (Swale)has had a lot of arrows shot his way and quite frankly, he held up rather well. Just looking after the docs wellbeing.
Actually, my comment was not directed to anyone in particular. I enjoyed your post. It was quite to the point and refreshing to read.
I am just saying that the man (Swale)has had a lot of arrows shot his way and quite frankly, he held up rather well. Just looking after the docs wellbeing.
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Ok, my .02. I have been following this thread, and that on CEM and SBI. I thought that Swale handled himself quite professionally and logged off of CEM based upon a "mutual business decision." Even JGUNS, soon after, said that it was "just business." However, when folks started to bemoan Swale's exist, JGUNS posted that the new guy at CEM would have more experience in his little finger than Swale has in his entire body. Now this was a little much, and a personal attack and was apparently what started the whole debacle.
It could have been left as a simple business decision, but the discussion was escalated into qualifications and professionalism. IMO, this was where it crossed the line. I am in favor of rational discussion and a sharing of differing opinions, but when someone's livelihood is threatened and their qualifications questioned, this crosses the line. Especially after providing a valuable service to a lot of us.
Swale, I hope you stay on these Boards as you provide such a wonderful and caring perspective on TRT.
It could have been left as a simple business decision, but the discussion was escalated into qualifications and professionalism. IMO, this was where it crossed the line. I am in favor of rational discussion and a sharing of differing opinions, but when someone's livelihood is threatened and their qualifications questioned, this crosses the line. Especially after providing a valuable service to a lot of us.
Swale, I hope you stay on these Boards as you provide such a wonderful and caring perspective on TRT.
xtinct
New member
Swale, I think everyone agrees with your main point that anything that raises test levels significantely above normal should not be called testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). A better name would be TET (test enhancement therapy). So, if 200mg puts almost everyone above the high normal limit, then it's not true testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Where I disagree with you is when you attack doctors who prescribe those doses. In my book, raising test above normal levels is a good thing. I don't just want to be normal, I want to be better than normal. If it is true that going above normal ruins your health, I have not seen any evidence for that.
You're argument that you shouldn't go above what "mother nature" intended you to have is just plain stupid. By that same reasoning you are going against mother nature too, by giving test to men who are at an age where mother nature intended levels to be lower. In fact, the whole point of anti-aging medicine is to alter the path that mother nature chose for you. I am not saying that you don't have any more thought out reasons, but please be more specific. What else are you referring to? High cholesterol? I have yet to see convincing evidence that moderately elevated cholesterol poses any danger in people who are not obese and have no previous history of cardiovascular problems. Like I said, you may have good reasons for saying what you said, so lets hear some specifics.
Also, while I can appreciate that you have taken a lot of shit from "mainstream" doctors for going as far as you have and therefore want to draw a bright line between testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and TET (however elusive or imaginary that line may be), you also know enough about the legalities involved that you should know that it is our stupid government that forces those other doctors to hide behind the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) label. So go a little easier on them.
You're argument that you shouldn't go above what "mother nature" intended you to have is just plain stupid. By that same reasoning you are going against mother nature too, by giving test to men who are at an age where mother nature intended levels to be lower. In fact, the whole point of anti-aging medicine is to alter the path that mother nature chose for you. I am not saying that you don't have any more thought out reasons, but please be more specific. What else are you referring to? High cholesterol? I have yet to see convincing evidence that moderately elevated cholesterol poses any danger in people who are not obese and have no previous history of cardiovascular problems. Like I said, you may have good reasons for saying what you said, so lets hear some specifics.
Also, while I can appreciate that you have taken a lot of shit from "mainstream" doctors for going as far as you have and therefore want to draw a bright line between testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and TET (however elusive or imaginary that line may be), you also know enough about the legalities involved that you should know that it is our stupid government that forces those other doctors to hide behind the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) label. So go a little easier on them.
Realgains
Community Veteran, Longtime Vet
QUOTE.
Where I disagree with you is when you attack doctors who prescribe those doses. In my book, raising test above normal levels is a good thing. I don't just want to be normal, I want to be better than normal. If it is true that going above normal ruins your health, I have not seen any evidence for that.
You're argument that you shouldn't go above what "mother nature" intended you to have is just plain stupid. By that same reasoning you are going against mother nature too, by giving test to men who are at an age where mother nature intended levels to be lower. In fact, the whole point of anti-aging medicine is to alter the path that mother nature chose for you. I am not saying that you don't have any more thought out reasons, but please be more specific. What else are you referring to? High cholesterol? I have yet to see convincing evidence that moderately elevated cholesterol poses any danger in people who are not obese and have no previous history of cardiovascular problems. Like I said, you may have good reasons for saying what you said, so lets hear some specifics. QUOTE
Bro .....when you raise T levels to normal levels it is healthy...and for the older man too. Body fat decreases, muscle tone improves, aerobic capacity improves, sex drive improves, mental status often improves, ones lipid profile improves, and it is likely better for the prostate to have a higher androgen to estrogen ratio.
***Many of these things actually get better as you approach the high normal level of T which is 700-900ng/dl or so....and even if they got worse SWALE would pick it up because he follows his men with blood work carefully. He also listens subjectively to how they are feeling as some men might feel better at 500-600ng/dl.
Bro....when you go above high normal it isn't a good thing especially in regards to the lipid profile and we know how important that is especially as we age. Hdl levels will plumet as your increase T levels above normal and this is significant.
Bro it doesn't take a test level much above normal to seriously alter ones lipid profile. YES...there are plenty of other risk factors that one may not have BUT did you know that the hdl to total cholesterol ratio is the SINGLE greatest lipid indicator when considering your chances of developing heart disease. Ther have been many men that have suffered heart attacks with the only risk indicator being a low hdl...they even had low ldl.
Making yout T level go above normal IS NOT hormone replacement therapy IMHO...it is steroid use plain and simple. And to think that some of these so called doctors routinely dole out scrips of 200mg of test/week without checking T and estrogen levels with follow up.....what a joke....as Swale has said that often produces a T level TWICE normal not to mention unhealthy levels of estrogen that will add water weight and pound away at a healthy prostate.
RG
Where I disagree with you is when you attack doctors who prescribe those doses. In my book, raising test above normal levels is a good thing. I don't just want to be normal, I want to be better than normal. If it is true that going above normal ruins your health, I have not seen any evidence for that.
You're argument that you shouldn't go above what "mother nature" intended you to have is just plain stupid. By that same reasoning you are going against mother nature too, by giving test to men who are at an age where mother nature intended levels to be lower. In fact, the whole point of anti-aging medicine is to alter the path that mother nature chose for you. I am not saying that you don't have any more thought out reasons, but please be more specific. What else are you referring to? High cholesterol? I have yet to see convincing evidence that moderately elevated cholesterol poses any danger in people who are not obese and have no previous history of cardiovascular problems. Like I said, you may have good reasons for saying what you said, so lets hear some specifics. QUOTE
Bro .....when you raise T levels to normal levels it is healthy...and for the older man too. Body fat decreases, muscle tone improves, aerobic capacity improves, sex drive improves, mental status often improves, ones lipid profile improves, and it is likely better for the prostate to have a higher androgen to estrogen ratio.
***Many of these things actually get better as you approach the high normal level of T which is 700-900ng/dl or so....and even if they got worse SWALE would pick it up because he follows his men with blood work carefully. He also listens subjectively to how they are feeling as some men might feel better at 500-600ng/dl.
Bro....when you go above high normal it isn't a good thing especially in regards to the lipid profile and we know how important that is especially as we age. Hdl levels will plumet as your increase T levels above normal and this is significant.
Bro it doesn't take a test level much above normal to seriously alter ones lipid profile. YES...there are plenty of other risk factors that one may not have BUT did you know that the hdl to total cholesterol ratio is the SINGLE greatest lipid indicator when considering your chances of developing heart disease. Ther have been many men that have suffered heart attacks with the only risk indicator being a low hdl...they even had low ldl.
Making yout T level go above normal IS NOT hormone replacement therapy IMHO...it is steroid use plain and simple. And to think that some of these so called doctors routinely dole out scrips of 200mg of test/week without checking T and estrogen levels with follow up.....what a joke....as Swale has said that often produces a T level TWICE normal not to mention unhealthy levels of estrogen that will add water weight and pound away at a healthy prostate.
RG
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xtinct
New member
RG, so you are saying that a test level of 900ng/dl improves everyone's health, but if you go a little higher then it suddenly ruins your health? Biology does not work like that, and I am sure that you know that.
To be honest, I couldn't care less whether 100mg or 200mg is the better dose, as I am personally only interested in doses in the 1000mg+ range. I just think it's funny when people start saying that anything above the normal range will ruin your health. If 200mg will screw you up, I should already be dead. Seriously, just from reading the boards, I have read about several people who have been on very high doses for very long periods of time, and they seem to be doing just fine (cholesterol, liver values, and all). I have a feeling that the reaction most doctors have to the idea of using supraphisiologically doses of test is similar to the reaction you got (until recently) to the idea of using a high fat diet for weight reduction. For decades it was dogma that such diets would damage your health, anything to the contrary was ignored and discounted without giving it any thought.
Maybe I am wrong, but I would like to see some evidence before I jump onto the high-test-is-bad bandwagon. Merely repeating the general dogma about the importance of a favorable cholesterol ratio does not convince me. If you have a study that demonstrates that high cholesterol is a major risk factor in people who are not obese, diabetic, or are already suffering from cardiovascular problems, then please let me know -- I would love to be enlightened.
To be honest, I couldn't care less whether 100mg or 200mg is the better dose, as I am personally only interested in doses in the 1000mg+ range. I just think it's funny when people start saying that anything above the normal range will ruin your health. If 200mg will screw you up, I should already be dead. Seriously, just from reading the boards, I have read about several people who have been on very high doses for very long periods of time, and they seem to be doing just fine (cholesterol, liver values, and all). I have a feeling that the reaction most doctors have to the idea of using supraphisiologically doses of test is similar to the reaction you got (until recently) to the idea of using a high fat diet for weight reduction. For decades it was dogma that such diets would damage your health, anything to the contrary was ignored and discounted without giving it any thought.
Maybe I am wrong, but I would like to see some evidence before I jump onto the high-test-is-bad bandwagon. Merely repeating the general dogma about the importance of a favorable cholesterol ratio does not convince me. If you have a study that demonstrates that high cholesterol is a major risk factor in people who are not obese, diabetic, or are already suffering from cardiovascular problems, then please let me know -- I would love to be enlightened.
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muscleup
Community Board Whore
well I absouletly love SWALES post...I tend to cycle for a long time and I'm giving his HCG methods a try...It makes complete sense to me...I'm actually thinking of giving him a try,consultation wise...This is based on what I have read,but it seems to me that he really knows his stuff...Not just pulling up random medical studies that no one can understand.
The Phone Guy
New member
Hello,
I've carefully read this whole thread & find myself a little angry at the way this whole things going. Swale, you know your stuff, this is obvious. Mr. Joyce does too. You've spent this whole thread selling yourself in my opinion. Mr. Joyce doesn't even come close to the smear campaign you've put forth. I know you'll come back at me with a screen and a half about why I'm wrong & your right and that's ok. I will state my opinion based on my direct experience with Mr. Joyce. Swale, have you even bothered to go through the process of posing as a potential customer of Mr. Joyce or are you mearly feeling pressure & think you need ALL the room in your profession? In other words, do you think your word is law & there's no one else who can do the same or better? Your way of thinking is dangerous. Mr. Joyce is a competitor to you. You don't like it. Too bad, I say! Mr. Paul Joyce has treated me with the utmost respect & has given me the answers to every question I've placed before him. In fact, Mr. Joyce initially prescribed me low doses instead of higher ones because he believed I was looking to simply feel better & not bulk up. He could have prescribed me twice as much from the get go if he was in it for the money. After discussions here at the boards, I discovered I was only doing HRT doseages. This wasn't my goal, I wanted a cycle. I immediately contacted Mr. Joyce regarding my desire to do an actual cycle. He responded by te;lling me I could do 1,000mg a week of test if I wanted to, but he'd like to see me try only 400mg a week + stick to the prescribed 200mg of deca on this first cycle. He could have gone for my money again, but didn't. Mr. Joyce has done everything right from my perspective to this day. He had me fill out an extensive medical questionaire, followed by a blood test from a certified nurse who came to my home. He took a couple of days to check the blood out & then prescribed me & sent me enough test to do a 10 week cycle. This initial cycle was the HRT one... 200mg test + 200mg deca a week. I was sent packs (way more than I needed) of 18 guage needles/syringes for withdrawel, packs of 22 guage needles/syringes to inject & even an excessive amount of smaller pins to administer the HCG near the end and after my cycle completes. When I asked for the upgrade from the HRT dosages to the actual cycle, I'd told him that I think he misunderstood my request & said that I'd wished he'd have started me off at the higher doses. His response to this.... No problem, I'll get the extra Test out to you immediately for no charge. My mistake, no worries. What clinic does this??? Not a shady one Swale. So, I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off a little & spend less time bashing other doctors who really do care about their patients. I recommend Mr. Joyce from my own personal experience. He has earned my trust in more ways than one. Finally, I ask you again to stop bashing Mr. Joyce. You never even posed as a client to see how he really operates. For this reason, your rants are all hot air to me.
I've carefully read this whole thread & find myself a little angry at the way this whole things going. Swale, you know your stuff, this is obvious. Mr. Joyce does too. You've spent this whole thread selling yourself in my opinion. Mr. Joyce doesn't even come close to the smear campaign you've put forth. I know you'll come back at me with a screen and a half about why I'm wrong & your right and that's ok. I will state my opinion based on my direct experience with Mr. Joyce. Swale, have you even bothered to go through the process of posing as a potential customer of Mr. Joyce or are you mearly feeling pressure & think you need ALL the room in your profession? In other words, do you think your word is law & there's no one else who can do the same or better? Your way of thinking is dangerous. Mr. Joyce is a competitor to you. You don't like it. Too bad, I say! Mr. Paul Joyce has treated me with the utmost respect & has given me the answers to every question I've placed before him. In fact, Mr. Joyce initially prescribed me low doses instead of higher ones because he believed I was looking to simply feel better & not bulk up. He could have prescribed me twice as much from the get go if he was in it for the money. After discussions here at the boards, I discovered I was only doing HRT doseages. This wasn't my goal, I wanted a cycle. I immediately contacted Mr. Joyce regarding my desire to do an actual cycle. He responded by te;lling me I could do 1,000mg a week of test if I wanted to, but he'd like to see me try only 400mg a week + stick to the prescribed 200mg of deca on this first cycle. He could have gone for my money again, but didn't. Mr. Joyce has done everything right from my perspective to this day. He had me fill out an extensive medical questionaire, followed by a blood test from a certified nurse who came to my home. He took a couple of days to check the blood out & then prescribed me & sent me enough test to do a 10 week cycle. This initial cycle was the HRT one... 200mg test + 200mg deca a week. I was sent packs (way more than I needed) of 18 guage needles/syringes for withdrawel, packs of 22 guage needles/syringes to inject & even an excessive amount of smaller pins to administer the HCG near the end and after my cycle completes. When I asked for the upgrade from the HRT dosages to the actual cycle, I'd told him that I think he misunderstood my request & said that I'd wished he'd have started me off at the higher doses. His response to this.... No problem, I'll get the extra Test out to you immediately for no charge. My mistake, no worries. What clinic does this??? Not a shady one Swale. So, I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off a little & spend less time bashing other doctors who really do care about their patients. I recommend Mr. Joyce from my own personal experience. He has earned my trust in more ways than one. Finally, I ask you again to stop bashing Mr. Joyce. You never even posed as a client to see how he really operates. For this reason, your rants are all hot air to me.
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Just sitting her biting my tongue. Watching a certain someone dig a very deep hole for himself.
I would appreciate anyone who has developed a negative opinion of me or my company based on swales comments to write me.
I never intended for this to turn into a public dispaly and on my side it wont.
I would also like for anyone that has been mistreated in any way shape or form by my company to come forward. Hmmm nobody. Imagine that.
whenever everyone wants to stop this nonsense my doctor has agreed to come on here and debate the genius. He is also willing to talk with him one on one, So the time for "putting up" has arrived.
This will be my final post. So anybody that wants can get their digs in, it will be without retort.
I would appreciate anyone who has developed a negative opinion of me or my company based on swales comments to write me.
I never intended for this to turn into a public dispaly and on my side it wont.
I would also like for anyone that has been mistreated in any way shape or form by my company to come forward. Hmmm nobody. Imagine that.
whenever everyone wants to stop this nonsense my doctor has agreed to come on here and debate the genius. He is also willing to talk with him one on one, So the time for "putting up" has arrived.
This will be my final post. So anybody that wants can get their digs in, it will be without retort.
The Phone Guy
New member
Way to go Mr. Joyce! Nice to see you pay attention to this crap too. I'm still new here at Steroidology, but I'm not known to be an asshole or a liar. I believe in you & am behind you 100%!
Finally, I'd forgot to mention that when I did actually question Mr. Joyces integrity, he'd offered to ship me the meds free of charge until I received them to varify their authenticity. What clinic does this Swale? You ever done this?? I bet not! In the end, I feel this thread will do the opposite of what you expect Swale.
Finally, I'd forgot to mention that when I did actually question Mr. Joyces integrity, he'd offered to ship me the meds free of charge until I received them to varify their authenticity. What clinic does this Swale? You ever done this?? I bet not! In the end, I feel this thread will do the opposite of what you expect Swale.
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The Phone Guy
New member
SWALE said:
Your wrong here Swale.
As I'd posted earlier, the clinic DID take my medical history & bloodwork.
Of course they want to sell drugs... This is why their in business!
I feel a reasonable debate is what you'll get.
And finally, nice advertisement on your own behalf... again.
I've no dis-like for you Swale. I just strongly dis-agree with your TOO LOUD opinions where Mr. Joyce's concerned. That's all.
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