Test prop 100mg, 150mg, or 200mg WK

High for burst cycle, and ED injections to keep the blood levels more stable, maybe not noticeable physical difference in gains, but a good amount of noticeable difference in sides and internal things.


There are some really interesting articles out there about short cycles. it really all makes sense.
 
You should post up these articles about short cycles.

Its just a bit unconventional way you proposed to dose:
100mg ed
150mg ed
200mg ed
progression from a lower dose to higher.
It is interesting to say the least I just dont see the logic.I recommended a longer ester but you dont like the bloat it cause but yet your words were you dont like the cut look either...?
And you say you dont normally get sides even at higher dose like 225 of tren ED.OP you say you have done over a gram and a half of trenbolone and didnt get sides?I'll quote you" i respond real well with high levels of gear, i dont tend to get bad sides, even on 225mg ED Tren Ace for 6 weeks, didnt too bad of sides, and it was very legit stuff."
Thats just crazy so please understand the resistance Im giving on this thread.
 
animal00043 said:
High for burst cycle, and ED injections to keep the blood levels more stable, maybe not noticeable physical difference in gains, but a good amount of noticeable difference in sides and internal things.


There are some really interesting articles out there about short cycles. it really all makes sense.
Click to expand...

don't worry man. i'm not calling you an idiot. You need to do what you want based on your research. Its hard sometimes in text how to write that doesn't look like emotion is involved, or vice versa. That's why i use smileys alot to keep the newbs from thinking I'm serious.

Anyway. Here are my big problems with it.

1. More sides. Which means more things to look at and watch during your cycle instead of just focusing on what matters. Food and hardcore training.

2. Homeostasis. I won't go into this again as I have killed the idea in this thread. But you know how it works. Yes it is possible to retain alot of those gains. But why struggle to do it when you can take a bit longer and have it easier.

3. Recovery. Now, it sounds logical for burst cycles to allow for better recovery. But, unless I'm missing it, there is no porven science that shorter cycles with massive doses reduces recovery time. Sounds great, but i think you are trading one thing for another. Either a longer cycle with less gear or a short cycle with 2-4 times the gear.

4. These burst cycles were/are being made popular by the pros. Markus clearly states his intention is not to have guys doing cycle after cycle with little to no rest period. Unfortunately, that is what the pros do, which goes back to relying on gear for those massive gains instead of slow gains that stay via food and training. Am I saying they or you won't be eating right and training hard? Hell no. You're a big dude Animal (although I never said I was bigger than you dummy. :D). But the gains that pros make by using so much damn gear don't stick around. And that is caused by relying on gear. Yes anyone who uses steroids relies on gear, but not the same way, i relied on it back then to break plateaus and go beyond natural limitations. The pros take that to an extreme that the human body can't keep up with... no matter how much they once they stop those heavy ass cycle. THAT is what I mean by relying on gear.

Now, like Drew, i believe any bloating you may get from LE gear is due primarily to diet and water intake. Anything else can be taken care of via an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). But if you are dead set on SE gear, than you do it.

16 weeks of Prop at 150mg EOD is fine. Hell if you wanna do 200mg EOD thats fine also. Or 100mg ED. I just don't like all that pinning.

I also agree that a kickstart and a walk off with SE gear are the best additions to LE cycles. And not just test.

Prop/Test Enan
Tren Ace/Tren Enan

or

Prop/Test Enan
NPP/Deca

Both of those are wicked fucking cycle. Simple. Don't need mega doses and you can gain amazing results with that.

Good luck animal. I love you. Now go fuck yourself. :laugh:
 
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Not to beat a dead hoarse but a great example of a top guy relying on gear to make the physique is the bad boy Chris Titus.He was in comp shape then was arrested for the murder charge and by the time he made it to court he was just a shell of what he was only a few months before.Of coarse there was a lot other things going on with that but damn the guy went from looking like Denis Wolf to just an average joe couch potato.
 
Holy SHIT! what a thread................

I will say this, in my huble opinion, I do beleive ester build-up over time can cause more water retention.

On the other hand, I beleive the large majority of guys hold more water on long esters because they tend to take more than they would with a short ester.

For example most guys dont go over 200mg EOD with prop but they will go up to 2 grams a week with enanthate.

So.............I think you will be doing the opposite of what you want to do by dosing high on a short cycle. IMO it would be more beneficial, due to your goals, to run a stack of short esters so you can keep your prop at 150mg EOD. I do not see a need to dose prop higher than that.

You can say that by upping your T dose when gains slow that you will get more gains. This is not the case, you simply add more water retention and thus get a little stronger.

Dont get me wrong 300mg vs 500 or even 750 mg will all give you different gains. Its once you go beyond that you really dont get anything more than water retention, hence stacking. If i could simply take more and more test, there would be no reason to stack.

Its just like hitting your natty limit, once you get to a certain point, it doesnt matter what you do.

So...............with all that being said, manipulating doses during a cycle is worthless. Pick a dose and stick with it.

I say 150mg EOD for however long you want to run it plus another compound or 2.

Tren would be great for such a short cycle cause the gains come really fast. Shitty thing about tren is you lose that hardness as soon as you stop shooting it, regardless of how spectactular your PCT is.

Now the short cycle debate, IMO, if you know how to PROPERLY do a PCT then there is no need to do a short cycle. Guys make the argument "on short cycles I will be shut down for less time" yes that is correct but you will also be running natural for a much shorter time period as well. so 6...............1/2 dozen or the other it really doesnt make a difference.

If all your using is "standard Nolva and Clomid dosing" for post cycle therapy (pct), that is why your losing your gains, not because of cycle length.

what about HCG? Igf-1? growth? GHRP-6? all these things and many others, if timed correctly, will help expediate recovery and minimize losses.


shewwwwwwwwwwww glad i got that off my chest:argue:
 
drewbolic said:
Oak you make some really good points there,thanks for chiming in
Click to expand...

yeah no shit Oak. This has been a great thread. One of our better ones.

I wish all of our threads could be this productive instead of the standard "hey guys what kind of post cycle therapy (pct) should I do for this cycle of 500mg a week of test?" thread.

I think from now on I'm gonna say Creatine and apple sauce is what constitutes a great post cycle therapy (pct). Yep. Thats it. Lets see how long it takes to get on BBing.com
 
THE-DET-OAK said:
Holy SHIT! what a thread................

I will say this, in my huble opinion, I do beleive ester build-up over time can cause more water retention.

On the other hand, I beleive the large majority of guys hold more water on long esters because they tend to take more than they would with a short ester.

For example most guys dont go over 200mg EOD with prop but they will go up to 2 grams a week with enanthate.

So.............I think you will be doing the opposite of what you want to do by dosing high on a short cycle. IMO it would be more beneficial, due to your goals, to run a stack of short esters so you can keep your prop at 150mg EOD. I do not see a need to dose prop higher than that.

You can say that by upping your T dose when gains slow that you will get more gains. This is not the case, you simply add more water retention and thus get a little stronger.

Dont get me wrong 300mg vs 500 or even 750 mg will all give you different gains. Its once you go beyond that you really dont get anything more than water retention, hence stacking. If i could simply take more and more test, there would be no reason to stack.

Its just like hitting your natty limit, once you get to a certain point, it doesnt matter what you do.

So...............with all that being said, manipulating doses during a cycle is worthless. Pick a dose and stick with it.

I say 150mg EOD for however long you want to run it plus another compound or 2.

Tren would be great for such a short cycle cause the gains come really fast. Shitty thing about tren is you lose that hardness as soon as you stop shooting it, regardless of how spectactular your PCT is.

Now the short cycle debate, IMO, if you know how to PROPERLY do a PCT then there is no need to do a short cycle. Guys make the argument "on short cycles I will be shut down for less time" yes that is correct but you will also be running natural for a much shorter time period as well. so 6...............1/2 dozen or the other it really doesnt make a difference.

If all your using is "standard Nolva and Clomid dosing" for post cycle therapy (pct), that is why your losing your gains, not because of cycle length.

what about HCG? Igf-1? growth? GHRP-6? all these things and many others, if timed correctly, will help expediate recovery and minimize losses.


shewwwwwwwwwwww glad i got that off my chest:argue:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply DET. I have seen your threads, no doubt you know what youre talking about.


I swear on my mothers grave i ran 225mg Tren ace, not bad sides, homebrew. I have no idea what it is about me and tren, but its just easy on me. Ya i got night sweats like crazy, insomnia, but sleeping aids and a fan took care of it. Worst side was aggression, i would rip someones head off if i could, but im way too laid back usually.


Anyways, I just think the logic is kind of simple for the short burst cycles.


My delima is this. (I Used to love long cycling, 22 weeks was my longest and i loved it). Usually when you start your AAS you get your BEST gains, on SE from week 2-6, and LE from 5-9. After that you get some gains, but nothing spectacular, mostly just a hardening effect. Yes i know that after the gains stop, your body starts to solidify the gains made and the longer you are on, the better the odds are in your favor for keeping more of it.

MY PROBLEM: Why keep hammering your hpta and lipid levels after that good window of gains, if you arent making that great of gains. Why not do even 6 weeks on, 4 weeks off, 6 weeks on. You would still be managing to let your hpta and lipid levels get back to some type of norm. as lipid levels fall after 3 weeks to near norm levels, and hpta can recover (NOT FULLY), but some within that time. Sure i might not be recovered all the way, but at least im sending signals to it so that i keep em active in a sense. (dumbing down the science).

DET- You point out a very neat thing. The idea of hitting a "wall" on gear, no matter the dosage, youre not getting bigger. No this i understand, i have seen it with some people.

One of the things you mentioned is off though, to me at least. You stated that people do 2grams of test enth a week which with out the ester weight comes out to be about 74mg of testosterone for ever 100mg (rounding up or down a mg, going from memory). With test prop its 83.72mg of test per 100mg. So you would be doing a lot more test from test enth (somewhere around 1480mg a week. where are with the prop you would only be doing 588mg per week.

See the difference? So why couldnt someone run 200mg ED /wk. it still comes out to be less mg of pure testosterone than test enth at 2 grams per week.

The only difference in the two is that it takes the body longer to strip off the enanthate ester than it does the propionate ester.


So are you saying that 500mg test from test enth is as powerful and as potent at 1400mg test from test enth?

Something in my head is just conflicting with all this. Help me out!:dunno:


Also in my pct i do run igf-1 lr3/DES, as posted before, love them peptides!!
 
animal00043 said:
TOne of the things you mentioned is off though, to me at least. You stated that people do 2grams of test enth a week which with out the ester weight comes out to be about 74mg of testosterone for ever 100mg (rounding up or down a mg, going from memory). With test prop its 83.72mg of test per 100mg. So you would be doing a lot more test from test enth (somewhere around 1480mg a week. where are with the prop you would only be doing 588mg per week. !
Click to expand...

right, my point is the more test you take the more water you will hold, I men thats what test does makes you hold water. so what im saying is that people think prop makes them hold less water but thats not the case, its just that they run more enanthate than prop, commonly, alot more so they perceive prop to hold less water. In actuality it is the higher dose that made them hold more water, nothing to do with the ester.

you can run 200mg ED of prop, I know a few guy that do. Problem is you will hold just as much water as if you did same amount of long ester gear.

when i got up to about 1.5 grams a week of Sustanon (sust) my gains did not come any stronger than they did when I ran 800 or so. the only noticeable difference is more side effects, namely acne.

I believe there is only so much test your body will let you put in before it converts the rest to estrogen. once you pass that certain point, for me threshold was like 8-875mg a week, then the only difference is more estrogen.

This makes sense cause its the estrogen that makes you hold water, its the estrogen, in combination with other factors, that brings on more side effects.

You can get a bunch of ol timers in this thread, they will all say the same exact thing, they dont see much of increase in gains when you get over a gram.

I mean on a 12 week cycle of test c at 500mg a week your T levels can reach 6,000- how high do you think they can go? your body can only synthesize protein so fast, injecting test will increase the rate but their has to be a wall like anything else. albumin and SHBG will surely start gobbling up as much test as possible with a high dose. estrogen then becomes more suppressive than testosterone, you start to really increase your risk of cancer with that much estro, and your chances of a cardiovascular event are greatly increased with levels that high, since at that dose it will surely affect HDL, hemoglobin, hematocrit, so i just dont see any positives of going that high at all. guys do not realise with test doses that high they could get into a pissing match with their girlfriend and have a stroke.

If anyone wants to argue that point lets have it, I have ample proof that those doses increase your chances of a cardiovascular event, anyone that says otherwise is talking out of their ass.

if you look at the study 300mg vs 600mg you will notice that just becasue they doubled the dose, did not meant that their gains doubled. this effect goes all the way upp the later. What im saying is the higher you dose, the less return you get mg for mg.

So if going from 300mg gives you a 12 lb gain and 600 gives you 20 then 1200 would give 24
why go to the 1200 dose? for the extra 4 lbs? I would say yea the extra 4 lbs is important but not for the added risk's i pointed out above, especially if your not making money doing this. I mean if its not your job we got all the time in the world right?

so you did a boatload of tren? 225 ED? I will tell you one thing for sure, it was garbage. there is just no way you could run that much and be sane, no way. I ran 100mg EOD and added 20lbs to my bench and this was after being on a YEAR LONG cycle. Just imagine if i would have taken it at the beginning?????

either get some different tren or run a simple prop winny/var cycle to counter the water retention...............................
 
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I wanted to add one more thing.

People think the testosterone you put in your body is what gives you the changes you are looking for. This is not true, Testosterone is nothing more than a messenger signal, thats all it does is regulate the speed of other mechanism's in the endocrine system. It is nothing more than FSH and LH, its just a signal. You can send out the signal for everything to go fast, but your body has limitations than can not be broken.
 
Great Thread here!
Oak that makes alot of sense when comparing water retention and short ester to long esters.I assume the more stable blood plasma levels with the more frequent injections with short esters keeps retention minimal also.
There is some really good info in this thread and I hope some of the new guys take something from it because I have.
Thank you for all that participate and lets see if we can keep it going,please feel free to add your view.
 
Never knew finaplix-h pellets were bunk now days. Hm.


It wasnt bunk, it was real. And 20lbs off a bench increase isnt too much. I was putting up 455lbs decline and 410 on incline bench when on that much.

Let me reclarify, i wasnt running the 225edwk for 6 weeks, i started at 75 eod, then 75 ed, then 150 ed, then 225 ed. Only was on 225 ed for 2 weeks.

Im not arguing with you about the high dosages of test. This thread has gotten off topic. It has become more health related than what it was initially geared for, which would give you the most gains.

But i have already gotten my answer after doing much more reading and pming rj.

Thanks for replying everyone!
Thanks Det as well.
 
Going to run 150mg EOD for first few weeks and see where im sitting, if i choose to i will go to 100-200 ED depending on how gains are coming along and how my body reacts.

Will be running tren ace 50mg ED for 10 weeks.

I will do a long cycle, 16 weeks with test, to see some things, im going to test my body during this time as i really want to see whats best for me.

I will be running anastrozle and prami through cycle as well.
 
animal00043 said:
It wasnt bunk, it was real. And 20lbs off a bench increase isnt too much.l.
Click to expand...

20 lbs on your 3 rp max, after being on all sorts of shit for a year and gaining 40bs in that time, is quite a bit sir. If you dont think 20lbs on bench is alot, then you sir are far away from your genetic limit.

225mg ED is stupid, you should have just poked holes in your kidneys. maybe the person who made the brew messed the conversion I dont know. telling me 225mg of tren ED doesnt do much for you but give you night sweats only tells me 2 things, training sux and so does diet..................................

im not being rude but something is not adding up.........................

yu will destroy your joints at 200mg ED and I could sit here and tell you all the negative effects of running that much but your just not going to listen so im done wasting my time.................
 
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Gosh damn - this turned into a great thread!

RJ gets it kick'n - then Drew - and DET tears it up at at the end! :Pokeowned

There's a lot to take away across the board on this one...

Animal - I want to say - "what bother crazy things are you think'n of?"

I'm just kidding - you've stirred up a very educational debate here...

Thanks for all the feedback on this one guys! :)
 
Hey man we're all here to learn. If we knew everything, we wouldnt be on here at all in the first place.

I think that because people come off so head strong online that people tend to not ask the questions that seem outlandish sometimes, and thus leads to people doing the wrong things some times. Its important for new users to be able to ask what they want, after doing regular research of course, and battle other people into finding an answer.

I think RJ and Det both know what they are talking about and i have learned from them. I value what they have to say, this forum could go over a lot better with more people if the users just backed off a bit and wernt so offensive at points.

I know wer all juicin, no need to bring the side onto the web as well haha.

Thanks to everyone that responded, glad we could talk about this.
 
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