THE TRUTH about 70's steroid doses from a 70's pro

[kube]

nelson: what does mike mentzers being schizo have to do with wieght training? you say his heavy duty training was just a gimmick to make money? be careful, one should not throw stones if one lives in a glass house. how would you feel if the same was said about you? you seem so eager to disagree with EVERYONE and so quick to discredit others. that my friend makes you seem like you have your own mental issues. just an observation as i get tired of seeing 95% of your posts either trying to make whoever doesnt agree with you look ignorant or discreetly flaming. dont get snippy either, this is just my opinion.

 

[HGH Man]

Casey viator is alive but the person I was refering to is Mike Menzner(2001). HGH is hard enough for a person to get there is the cost,busts,and some people don't think it's worth it. Let alone getting it from some dead guy. I just said if they paid alot now it must have cost a fortune back then too. I wouldnt go digging around some dead guys pituitary for a little GH ,would you?

 

[Golgo13]

Mike Mentzer was a loon. And thats not an opinion. It'a a certifiable fact. He'd been in and out of psychiartric hospitals a good portion of his later life diagnosed as clinically schizophrenic. Yes he was smart. Yes he was educated. Yes, he was a great bodybuilder. But he was delusional and his whole Heavy Duty shtick was just a gimmick to make money.

Both he and Casey used high volume for a good portion of their career and Casey was already juicing when Mike took him on.

I also would think anyone should question the motives of a guy who advocates 20 minutes of training a week is all you need yet even with his great genetics he couldn't get himself into decent shape.

So you misquote a Mentzer study, I inform you of the facts that you had wrong (like the nice guy I am). You respond with:

"Mike Mentzer was a loon"

What does his mental stability have to do with a study that he conducted? Einstein, wasn’t exactly mentally stable either but he did manage to advance physics and science in general more than any other 3 people put together ever, (I put Mike in the same category).

You can’t look at Mikes career and or steroid usage when trying to demerit his High-Intensity program… He didn’t develop it in full until at least 10 years AFTER he had retired… He was playing with intensity vs. volume models while training in his career, but it was under the advisement of Arthur Jones (someone who claims to know something about bodybuilding should know this).

 

[Nelson Montana]

I should have known this would happen.
I really dont want to argue about Mike Mentzer. The guy claimed that HD was the ONLY , BEST way to train and that's ridiculous. Ever proponenets of low volume didn't use the low volume he advocated. There has never been a natural athlete who suceeded training in this manner. He would use ridiculous analogies of how medicine is an exact science and so is bodybuilding. (I guess he never heard of different blood types or that different people require different amounts of anesthesia). It's all silly and it's all boring. If you like heavy Duty, knock yourself out.

 

[Golgo13]

There has never been a natural athlete who suceeded training in this manner. He would use ridiculous analogies of how medicine is an exact science and so is bodybuilding. (I guess he never heard of different blood types or that different people require different amounts of anesthesia). It's all silly and it's all boring. If you like heavy Duty, knock yourself out.

Once again, arguing by changing the subject... That way instead of being wrong you just antagonize.

I played for a national championship rugby team who ALL trained according to Mentzer's principals. We were the most fit team, and I would call a national championship a success so this statement:

"There has never been a natural athlete who suceeded training in this manner. "

is total crap. As far as his analogies, yeah they were strange... So what!? They were nowhere close to the randomness of the blood type thing you mentioned.

Silly and boring huh!? Well, I know many who have been incredibly sucessfull with his theories... Many more than those who have taken a volume approach.

 

[Golgo13]

I should have known this would happen.
I really dont want to argue about Mike Mentzer.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up. You love to bash shit then when things aren't going your way you then go into how lame the topic is.

I was a fan of yours, however I am starting to think that if you are so closed minded on so many things, it IS possible that everything you say is tainted by that same closed minded nature therefore making fundamentally lacking.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Then you shouldn't have brought it up. You love to bash shit then when things aren't going your way you then go into how lame the topic is.

I was a fan of yours, however I am starting to think that if you are so closed minded on so many things, it IS possible that everything you say is tainted by that same closed minded nature therefore making fundamentally lacking.

Things weren't going my way?

Actually, I've done considerable analysis, esearch and experimentation with Heavy Duty. You shouldn't use the accusation that someone is "close minded" simply because they disagree with you.

I think you're upset because you don't like one of your heros being shown for what he was. That's fine. We can have different points of view. But to then dismiss everything I say as "fundementally lacking" because of it -- THAT, is close minded.

 

[PA-Muscle]

Mike Mentzers, Casey Viator, Sergio Olivia, Frank Zane, Arnold....etc....what they did or didn't do ........Who Cares!....research, evaluate and come up with what works for you.....

Peace Out!

 

[Bimmer]

Mike Mentzers, Casey Viator, Sergio Olivia, Frank Zane, Arnold....etc....what they did or didn't do ........Who Cares!....research, evaluate and come up with what works for you.....

Peace Out!

very well said!

 

[Golgo13]

Things weren't going my way?

Actually, I've done considerable analysis, esearch and experimentation with Heavy Duty. You shouldn't use the accusation that someone is "close minded" simply because they disagree with you.

I think you're upset because you don't like one of your heros being shown for what he was. That's fine. We can have different points of view. But to then dismiss everything I say as "fundementally lacking" because of it -- THAT, is close minded.

You need to re-read this thread, allong with the Mentzer books... I am not the only one who thinks you are closed minded. And I accepted some of your opinions before because I thought you were an inteligent man, but someone who dismisses clinical analysis (May it be Mentzers NATURAL training clients, the performance of my rugby team, pro-hormones, other members of the board and their usage opinions...)

If you blow all this shit off, this shit, that has data to back it up, I have no choice then to question the things you ARE positive on. You obviously don't give a shit about data...

I am not a certified trainer or anything but EVERYONE I know, I mean EVERYONE does Mentzer training thanks to me... The all make progress and are extreemly muscular. I have seen it work without fail, and I am not the first guy to say this.

As far as bashing a hero of mine... nah. I am not like that. Mentzer as a person wasn't the greatest, he was a crybaby about the 80 O. He hated Arnold also, and Arnold I don't see how anybody can hate that guy.

Oh well... I guess we agree to dissagree.

 

[Victorian guy]

If you're referring to the interview in MuscleMag with Ron Harris, I have that right in front of me and I don't see that statement anywhere.


What people fail to realize here is the time line. Drug use exploded in the mid-seventies, with guys like Viator among the renegades to up the ante. (Which always made me laugh when Mentzer pointed to Viators success as a testiment to Heavy Duty training. What a joke.) What Scott and Draper and Pearl and Poole and took was a fraction of what they were using just a few years later -- which is why the Mr. Olympia winner went form 205 to 250 within that time.

Prior to 1970, the approach to drugs was very cautious, plus, there weren't many drugs around. D-bol was about it. In my post "Okay, here it is" I speak about my inerview with 1967 Mr. America Don Howorth and his cycle was 10 mgs of D-bol a day. People find this hard to believe yet at the same time they can't understand how nobody had gyno without ant-e's. Believe me, the dosages were that low. But they trained like animals and ate an insane amount of fat. That was the secret.

.

I don't buy that. I think Don Howorth was bullshitting you- the old timers try to make themselves out to be superior to today's bodybuilders with the 'I only took a few dbol tabs a day" nonsense.
By 1966, every steroid there is today was in existence- and I dont see where this 'the large doses started in the 1970s' nonsense came from.
Hogwash. And if bodyweight is an indication- them sammir bannout, franco, zane and dickerson MUST have been on WAY less than Larry Scott or Sergio Oliva...nonsense.
Were you competing or lifting in the 1960s? 70s? Draper had a heart attack later in life. Due to the low doses, I guess.

 

[DirkMoneyshot]

I personally don't think they used low doses. Why would they. Any competitive athlete will try and push the limits. Thats the nature of sports.

And for the argument that because they didn't have gyno they used low doses. I've used upt to 2g / week without any anti-e and i sure as hell don't have any gyno!!!