Thought I was low test...maybe not...?

[Jay Vidali]

New to all of this but been doing research. I am in the Philippines so I don't have access to the same doctors, labs or materials I would have in the US. I will be self-administering anything I do, though I do have access to labs, as described below.

Background: Been feeling listless, low motivation, low focus and low energy for quite a while now and increasingly as time goes by. Low libido and some ED (Viagra takes care of that, though). I am 44 and quite overweight, though I do work out in the gym most days (that said, I am constantly low gas in the gym). I do enjoy sex but I don't have any craving for it and I can just as easily go 5 times a day (with Viagra, of course) as once a month.

Friend of mine on self administered TRT suggested I get testosterone-tested. I did, and the results came in at 382, reference for that test was 200-1000. I also had my Liver tested (SPGT and SPOT, iirc) as well as my PSA (which came in at 0.4, with reference of ">4.0 is high") so I was all good there.

Did a lot of research over the last 2 months and was pretty set on low level TRT. In fact, I was quite excited at the possibility of feeling better, doing more, and getting into better shape. Decided to get more full tests after reading here and other places, before I start anything. Tests came back more positive which, in a larger sense, is very negative, since it puts me back at square one with no serious improvements ahead.

Testosterone (ECLIA) 4.92 ng/mL (2.80 ~ 8.00)
FSH (ECLIA) 3.37 (1.50 ~ 12.40)
LuteinizingHormone(ECLIA) 4.39 (1.70 ~ 8.60)
Estradiol (ECLIA) 25.21 pg/mL (7.63~42.60)
Cortisol (ECLIA) 209.60 nmol/L (7-10AM) (171 ~ 536) (4 -8PM): 64 ~ 327 (had it tested between these two time frames but strangely, they don't list the 10am-4pm range)

I still have Estradiol (RIA) and Testosterone Bio-available coming in a couple weeks (they have to send out those tests). From what I have read, what they call Estradiol Sensitive on this forum is Estradiol (RIA) which I am still waiting for. That said, as I understand it, Estradiol Standard usually reads high and I am low-normal, according to the ranges they reference. I realize I have a couple more tests coming in but wanted to get some early thoughts on this, if possible.

The eventual questions I will need to answer, hopefully with the forums help...
Should I avoid TRT altogether?
Can I consider a short term pickmeup (like 6 months) and stop?
Are my numbers indicative of any other substantive options (like clomid monotherapy, hcg, proviron, etc.)?

My goals, in order of priority, are: Motivation/Energy, Body composition improvement, Libido.

Thanks, in advance, for any advice!

 

[jozifp103]

your levels are low-ish, but not terribly low. considering your age and the fact you're overweight, it makes sense. My advice is to keep working hard in the gym and work on a healthy diet and get good rest. In time, that alone can work wonders for your natural test levels.

your estradiol looks just fine where it is. 25-35 is what is recommended for males. The sensitive assay may read 10-20 points lower though, which would still be a good ratio considering your test is on the low side. With an increase in test, you will get an increase in estradiol due to aromatization. (conversion of test to estradiol)

as far as a 6 month "pick me up". No, that is a bad idea. When you start trt, your body will shut down it's natural production. and if you stop trt after 6 months, recovering your natural levels will be very difficult and you are likely to end up lower than when you started.

 

[Havasu]

New to all of this but been doing research. I am in the Philippines so I don't have access to the same doctors, labs or materials I would have in the US. I will be self-administering anything I do, though I do have access to labs, as described below.

Background: Been feeling listless, low motivation, low focus and low energy for quite a while now and increasingly as time goes by. Low libido and some ED (Viagra takes care of that, though). I am 44 and quite overweight, though I do work out in the gym most days (that said, I am constantly low gas in the gym). I do enjoy sex but I don't have any craving for it and I can just as easily go 5 times a day (with Viagra, of course) as once a month.

Friend of mine on self administered TRT suggested I get testosterone-tested. I did, and the results came in at 382, reference for that test was 200-1000. I also had my Liver tested (SPGT and SPOT, iirc) as well as my PSA (which came in at 0.4, with reference of ">4.0 is high") so I was all good there.

Did a lot of research over the last 2 months and was pretty set on low level TRT. In fact, I was quite excited at the possibility of feeling better, doing more, and getting into better shape. Decided to get more full tests after reading here and other places, before I start anything. Tests came back more positive which, in a larger sense, is very negative, since it puts me back at square one with no serious improvements ahead.

Testosterone (ECLIA) 4.92 ng/mL (2.80 ~ 8.00)
FSH (ECLIA) 3.37 (1.50 ~ 12.40)
LuteinizingHormone(ECLIA) 4.39 (1.70 ~ 8.60)
Estradiol (ECLIA) 25.21 pg/mL (7.63~42.60)
Cortisol (ECLIA) 209.60 nmol/L (7-10AM) (171 ~ 536) (4 -8PM): 64 ~ 327 (had it tested between these two time frames but strangely, they don't list the 10am-4pm range)

I still have Estradiol (RIA) and Testosterone Bio-available coming in a couple weeks (they have to send out those tests). From what I have read, what they call Estradiol Sensitive on this forum is Estradiol (RIA) which I am still waiting for. That said, as I understand it, Estradiol Standard usually reads high and I am low-normal, according to the ranges they reference. I realize I have a couple more tests coming in but wanted to get some early thoughts on this, if possible.

The eventual questions I will need to answer, hopefully with the forums help...
Should I avoid TRT altogether?
Can I consider a short term pickmeup (like 6 months) and stop?
Are my numbers indicative of any other substantive options (like clomid monotherapy, hcg, proviron, etc.)?

My goals, in order of priority, are: Motivation/Energy, Body composition improvement, Libido.

Thanks, in advance, for any advice!

As Jozifp said due to your age and weight it's not surprising, however it's still low in my opinion. I'm no expert, but jozif do you think an almost TRT like cycle may give him the benefits of feeling better, and give him gas in the gym to be able to get more out of his workouts? I know 12 weeks will not make him some ripped and shredded guy, but it may give him a boost, then he can PCT.

To the OP remember that if you cycle, you may not even recover to where you currently are. At your age the odds are against you. So, if you dive into AAS, at TRT doses, or higher you have to be dead set on being married to TRT for the rest of your life. If you're going to do that I suggest you research the shit out of it. Understand what blood tests you should start with, and follow up with. All the parts of TRT which encompass Testosterone, HCG, Aromatase Inhibitor, Pregnenolone, and DHEA, etc. There's a lot to learn. I'm still learning as well.

I will say I've started on TRT and my test was 409. I'm in the early stages of TRT and still dialing in, but I'm already starting to feel better, however I'm not overweight. I've been around gyms since I was 15, and I'm 37. You'll have different sets of issues than I may have with having to watch out for gyno more, and your estradiol levels. The more fat there is, the higher the chance. Then again, some guys are just gyno prone to begin with.

 

[juced_porkchop]

your levels are low-ish, but not terribly low. considering your age and the fact you're overweight, it makes sense. My advice is to keep working hard in the gym and work on a healthy diet and get good rest. In time, that alone can work wonders for your natural test levels.

your estradiol looks just fine where it is. 25-35 is what is recommended for males. The sensitive assay may read 10-20 points lower though, which would still be a good ratio considering your test is on the low side. With an increase in test, you will get an increase in estradiol due to aromatization. (conversion of test to estradiol)

as far as a 6 month "pick me up". No, that is a bad idea. When you start trt, your body will shut down it's natural production. and if you stop trt after 6 months, recovering your natural levels will be very difficult and you are likely to end up lower than when you started.

100% good advice right here ^^^

dont jump on hrt. jump on a diet full of fresh veggies daily, low-no simple sugars (pop, fruit juice, candy ect). work out 2-3 times a week for mass ( more muscle more calories burned day to day) and take some health supps like multi vitamins, good fats, taurine 1-4g ed and extra vitd and b12 IMO
Green tea is also really good for healthy, energy and fatloss.

GOOD LUCK MAN!

 

[jozifp103]

As Jozifp said due to your age and weight it's not surprising, however it's still low in my opinion. I'm no expert, but jozif do you think an almost TRT like cycle may give him the benefits of feeling better, and give him gas in the gym to be able to get more out of his workouts? I know 12 weeks will not make him some ripped and shredded guy, but it may give him a boost, then he can PCT.

To the OP remember that if you cycle, you may not even recover to where you currently are. At your age the odds are against you. So, if you dive into AAS, at TRT doses, or higher you have to be dead set on being married to TRT for the rest of your life. If you're going to do that I suggest you research the shit out of it. Understand what blood tests you should start with, and follow up with. All the parts of TRT which encompass Testosterone, HCG, Aromatase Inhibitor, Pregnenolone, and DHEA, etc. There's a lot to learn. I'm still learning as well.

I will say I've started on TRT and my test was 409. I'm in the early stages of TRT and still dialing in, but I'm already starting to feel better, however I'm not overweight. I've been around gyms since I was 15, and I'm 37. You'll have different sets of issues than I may have with having to watch out for gyno more, and your estradiol levels. The more fat there is, the higher the chance. Then again, some guys are just gyno prone to begin with.

answer to bolded part: no, i do not think that would be good for him. cycling with a high bodyfat will lead to issues, and even a light trt dose will shut him down and make it even harder to recover to healthy levels. I truly believe if OP eats healthy, lifts, cardios, and drops a good amount of weight his body will naturally start producing healthy T levels.

 

[3J]

i think if he cleans up his diet and gets the right nutrients in his test levels will come in even higher

just like your body needs protein to build muscle, it needs certain nutrients to make natty test.. lack of nutrition is easily a cause of lower test levels.. though his levels seem ok to me

 

[Jay Vidali]

Yeah, I was kind of afraid that was going to be the advice. I guess I was hoping that there would be some sense of "Ok, you are not LOW test but you aren't optimal and who wants to be low-average?" but I do understand that it's difficult to recover for many people and I appreciate all frank opinions I don't want to jump in rashly, that's why I had the extra tests done and why I am posting here today.

I was also throwing it out there in case there are some half measures (like proviron, clomid mono, hcg, etc...or something I hadn't heard about yet) that might help.

Just to be clear, I am undeniably fat but I do go to the gym almost daily (IE, not a couch potato). My workouts are ok...I keep it pretty short, one hour max. I used to be semi decent shape, going to the gym 6x a week and using ECA for strong workouts. There *are* lifestyle improvements I can still make, like stopping drinking, dropping all comfort food, not partying all night, etc...but then, those are just as much lifelong commitments as TRT, I suppose. And probably just as, if not more, painful.

Keep any new thoughts coming, I appreciate all feedback, guys.

 

[3J]

what are your stats?

 

[Jay Vidali]

what are your stats?

5'10", around 260 I think.

 

[Jay Vidali]

Got results in for the two remaining tests:

ESTRADIOL (RIA) 15.90 pg/mL (Men: 15.00~71.00)

Testosterone Bioavailable 0.61 ng/mL (0.80~3.20)

Any thoughts that this adds to the original labwork?

your estradiol looks just fine where it is. 25-35 is what is recommended for males. The sensitive assay may read 10-20 points lower though, which would still be a good ratio considering your test is on the low side. With an increase in test, you will get an increase in estradiol due to aromatization. (conversion of test to estradiol)

You were on target about the E2 reading 10-20 points lower. So my E2 is at the low range of normal, according to the reference ranges. Scraping the bottom, actually. That's ok, because my test is lowish, is that right?

And what are your thoughts on the whole picture, especially now that my bio-available is in (and looking a bit worse than the total test scenario)?

your levels are low-ish, but not terribly low. considering your age and the fact you're overweight, it makes sense. My advice is to keep working hard in the gym and work on a healthy diet and get good rest. In time, that alone can work wonders for your natural test levels.

Well, there is a sort of a circular problem in there, somewhere. I run out of gas in the gym and my body wants to wake up after 5 hours. Falling asleep is easy but my body seems to have decided it wants 5 hours, instead of my normal 7. I could try a thermogenic for the gym if I can find one out here...

as far as a 6 month "pick me up". No, that is a bad idea. When you start trt, your body will shut down it's natural production. and if you stop trt after 6 months, recovering your natural levels will be very difficult and you are likely to end up lower than when you started.

Ok, I had gotten that idea from this thread:
steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/666938-low-t-symptoms-can-you-help.html#post3504400

If TRT is a bad idea, can I get some thoughts on alternative ideas, other than just keep plugging away? I really don't want to just keep doing what I have been doing. That doesn't mean I am stuck on TRT, I am open to other ideas, as well. But I do need to do something. Especially about the focus/motivation.

 

[3J]

this was taken the same day?

 

[Jay Vidali]

this was taken the same day?

Yes. They had to send out the Bio-available and RIA E2 so it took longer to get the results but the blood was taken at the same time as the other tests.

 

[3J]

if your diet is right and you lower your bodyfat i expect your test levels to rise even more.. trt isn't justified in this situation

 

[Jay Vidali]

Ok. But surely there are some other helpful alternatives? I am ok if TRT is not the answer but I do want to explore my alternatives if that is the case. It's going to be a pretty bad year or two ahead of me at my current rate.

Also, any idea why my total test is low-normal but bio-available is lower than reference range? Even if I bring the bio up, it's got a long climb and from what I understand, diet and exercise can improve test but we are talking a mild-moderate effect, from what I read (is that correct?). If I lose a bunch of weight, do you think my bio-available would end up being mid-range or better?

 

[Jay Vidali]

No other thoughts or comments or analysis?

 

[Alpin]

Got results in for the two remaining tests:

ESTRADIOL (RIA) 15.90 pg/mL (Men: 15.00~71.00)

Testosterone Bioavailable 0.61 ng/mL (0.80~3.20)

Any thoughts that this adds to the original labwork?




You were on target about the E2 reading 10-20 points lower. So my E2 is at the low range of normal, according to the reference ranges. Scraping the bottom, actually. That's ok, because my test is lowish, is that right?

And what are your thoughts on the whole picture, especially now that my bio-available is in (and looking a bit worse than the total test scenario)?



Well, there is a sort of a circular problem in there, somewhere. I run out of gas in the gym and my body wants to wake up after 5 hours. Falling asleep is easy but my body seems to have decided it wants 5 hours, instead of my normal 7. I could try a thermogenic for the gym if I can find one out here...



Ok, I had gotten that idea from this thread:
steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/666938-low-t-symptoms-can-you-help.html#post3504400

If TRT is a bad idea, can I get some thoughts on alternative ideas, other than just keep plugging away? I really don't want to just keep doing what I have been doing. That doesn't mean I am stuck on TRT, I am open to other ideas, as well. But I do need to do something. Especially about the focus/motivation.

My Bio Avail.T is 1 ng/ml and I have been in/out of emerg. 3 times the last 2 months. Paramedics picked me off the street today actually. Never been to emerg for "panic attacks" in my life (as the brilliant docs call it) Back to TRT for me thanks.

 

[Alpin]

if your diet is right and you lower your bodyfat i expect your test levels to rise even more.. trt isn't justified in this situation

Pretty hard to work out if obese and especially hypogonadal.
His Bio Avail.T is horrible. That's the stuff thats most accurate when natty. Thats the stuff doing its job in the cells.
I doubt he will feel/see any improvement in weight loss or quality of life with his T levels.

 

[Slayer8633]

My old man dropped 40 pounds in 6 months, test levels went from 434 feeling like dog shit and run down all the time, to 660 total test. Made a huge difference for him. Made a big diet change, dropped beer to once/week and not an all night binge, went from not ever exercising to walking 5 days a week. He's in alot better shape now that what he was that's for sure!
Might as well go ahead and clean up the diet, make sure your getting adequate rest every night, keep up the workouts, and drop some weight and go back and test again in another 3-6 months! If you don't try, you won't ever know! Get Er' done brotha. Goodluck!

 

[Alpin]

My old man dropped 40 pounds in 6 months, test levels went from 434 feeling like dog shit and run down all the time, to 660 total test. Made a huge difference for him. Made a big diet change, dropped beer to once/week and not an all night binge, went from not ever exercising to walking 5 days a week. He's in alot better shape now that what he was that's for sure!
Might as well go ahead and clean up the diet, make sure your getting adequate rest every night, keep up the workouts, and drop some weight and go back and test again in another 3-6 months! If you don't try, you won't ever know! Get Er' done brotha. Goodluck!

That's certainly positive but even men with levels of TT like your dad can have low or low-normal bio available T
TT does not reflect the biologically available Testosterone in ones system.

 

[Jay Vidali]

Wow, great, I appreciate having the extra feedback!

Sorry to hear about your ER visits, Apollon.

Can I ask, is there some other malfunction that I should check that would cause total test to be low-normal but bio-available to be low? Is that evidence of anything in particular that I can try and address?

Or is it just a more accurate reading?