Throw me a critique please brohamms, bloat or imagination

Scienceteacher112

Scienceteacher112

New member
Ok so Ive already logged this on my cycle log, but I just wanna see if I can grab some advice really quick. (maybe one day I'll have a popular log like Santa lol). I moved from 178 to (180-183) in five days this week. Its just kind of strange because I feel lighter but weigh more. Ive been increasing training and sprinting volume, while decreasing weightlifting from splits 5 days a week, to the big three lifts three days a week with low volume but high intensity. I'm wondering if I just got bloated on the d-bol, and then dropped the bloat. I did increase aromasin from 10mg to 15mg ED. Any ideas? I really would be sad if I already hit the typical 4lb LMM before my test kicked in. I also realized that I had dieted to around 168 pre-cycle, 170 at start, and 178 in the picture. I also realized that I looked really sloppy in the picture, but just attributed that to my terrible selfie skills. I am asking for advice to see if this seems abnormal or not. It seems like gaining 8lb of water that fast and losing a lot of it 5 days later while still on the same dbol dose could be troubling. Maybe I should get bloods, or maybe i'm just imagining a difference in my body. I also flexed my abs in the second picture, but it still seems like a difference in bloat to me vanity aside. Anywho steroids are funtimes.

cycle is 30mg d-bol ED

400mg Test Weekly

15mg aromasin ED

500mg HCG weekly

clomid nolva- pct

View attachment 567533View attachment 567534
 
This is why everyone here pushes for T only 1st cycles. Your just a few weeks in and you’re having problems but you can’t pinpoint whether it’s the d-bol or the T that’s just now starting to build in your system. So now you’re already toying with your AI...come on man, no need for the scientific method here; works already been done for you. Probably shouldn’t have upped you d-bol dose with all this going on either.
Anyway, that’s enough beating. D-bol makes you bloat, period. At least in my experience and everyone else that I’ve known personally to take it. Guess there isn’t any harm in getting labs now, but you’ll still need them again later because your T is still not fully saturated. Not to mention In just a few more weeks you’ll be dropping your d-bol and changing the amount of androgens available to aromitize again. Regardless itchy nipples = high estrogen. Problem is you don’t know how high.
Also your post is confusing. You mention: “I moved from 178 to (180-183) in five days this week.“ then later say: “It seems like gaining 8lb of water that fast and losing a lot of it 5 days later while still on the same dbol dose could be troubling.” Not sure I follow what’s really going on.
What’s your diet and water intake like? You don’t mention it in your cycle log.
P.S. You look way more tan and lean in your profile pic...lol
 
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As was said ^^^ one of the problems is doing more then one compound when you don't have a handle of your body and how it reacts to AAS.

Much too early to go getting so concerned about a few pounds of water.

Now understand that in a few short weeks you having not built 4-6 pounds of LMM. If its only been a month I guarantee its water only.

Considering a man can only build 15-20 lbs of LMM in one year a good 12-14 week cycle can / will build at best the 4-6 pounds LMM. AND, that equates to the 15-20 lbs in one year.

Stay your course and get BW.

Good luck, OMM
 
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Both my log and I are overrated but thanks lol.

But like stated, would have been easier to dial in AI if you'd knew how much AI you'd normally need for xxx mg / week test.
Try to be consistent though and dont taper doses of dbol, test or even ai all over the place. Verify with blood work and overall well being, you'll know yourself the best in the end.
 
oldmusclemike said:
Considering a man can only build 15-20 lbs of LMM in one year a good 12-14 week cycle can / will build at best the 4-6 pounds LMM. AND, that equates to the 15-20 lbs in one year.
Click to expand...

This statement has bothered me since the day I joined...
Its so static thats its hard to believe it...

Are you saying its 15-20lbs per year WITH steriods or regardless ?
Are you saying its universally true for anyone and there is no variables to consider and there are no statistical outlines, say, genetics or current progress has no meaning ?
 
santa666 said:
This statement has bothered me since the day I joined...
Its so static thats its hard to believe it...

Are you saying its 15-20lbs per year WITH steriods or regardless ?
Are you saying its universally true for anyone and there is no variables to consider and there are no statistical outlines, say, genetics or current progress has no meaning ?
Click to expand...

To explain better ^^ my statement. I had several times gone ahead to detail more specifically ( this had been some time ago) but now it has been easier to use that 15-20 number in a more general sense. That range is in no way cast in stone.

There are many variables. Age is a big factor, length of time training, and of course the use of AAS plus genetics.
The range can be more depending on these things I agree but it get a bit complicated to for the averaged novice to understand and plug into their specific case. So I use it to cover the most wide range of cases.

By the way I did do research on this.... I have lost my old laptop and don't have the references at hand now.

But if you just look at the majority of BB's steroids or not my claim will fit. I have been around many competitors , amateur and a few pro and this always fits the 20 range of max gain of... LEAN MUSCLE MASS in 12 or even 14 months.

The real confusion lies in people don't really start from LEAN to LEAN state of body.

I have quantified the rule of thumb by watching mostly competitors due to show ready to show ready. Years ago I used to get confused myself as to my gains. Is this REAL LMM , Mike, or are you gaining more water fill then REAL LMM then I think. When I stop my cycle or lean out for show how much have I really gained.

I hope that might make this easier to understand or except. For now using my phone that's about all I can get into..

OMM

Oh PS: yes I mean with steroids or without.
 
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I saw an article some time ago that said a novice who got into lifting could put on 15 lbs year 1, 7-8 lbs year 2, 3 lbs year 3, then 2, then 1. etc.

I know this is pretty generic, but I think it rings true. That 15-20 lbs gain per year is really only in year one, then it goes way down fast.

Clearly steroids can help, and can push you well beyond your natural max, but I think you'll run into limits with diet, calories, training, etc. that will cap you out.
 
That explains it better, thanks. I just couldn't grasp the idea of such static values, but more importantly I was under the assumption you were applying it to the BB crowd, which would already have a pretty strong foundation which would diminish the returns.

But that brings an interesting question to light... Cycle length.
In a vacuum...
Say I'm using test prop and by week 8, i've gained about 8 pounds and just for sake of the discussion, lets assume half of it is water.
There really wouldn't be any added benefit for me keep running that 8 week cycle up to 16 weeks ?

I'm on about week 14 right now. I've gained about 5.5 kilos and dropped ~5% bodyfat.
I know i'm holding about 1kg water around my waist.

Thats 4.5kg or about 10 pounds LMM. I have roughly 25 days left...
Such a hard question to formulate...but have I reached my "potential" for this cycle so to speak ?
Weighing the potential additional gains versus health risks and side effects, both short and long term...

Where does everything fall ?
 
tankmanbob said:
I saw an article some time ago that said a novice who got into lifting could put on 15 lbs year 1, 7-8 lbs year 2, 3 lbs year 3, then 2, then 1. etc.

I know this is pretty generic, but I think it rings true. That 15-20 lbs gain per year is really only in year one, then it goes way down fast.

Clearly steroids can help, and can push you well beyond your natural max, but I think you'll run into limits with diet, calories, training, etc. that will cap you out.
Click to expand...

This ^^^ is right on. Thanks tankman ! This goes along with what I've said before as looking at the Olympian competitors. As we train and Gain over time as per poundage of LMM it comes diminishing returns.

When the guys get to that stage they may gain a pound or 2.

These facts are the confusing to the average guy because they think that when they lean out and after cycle they loose most all of what they gained.
When if fact if a guy continues to train, adjust his diet he can keep the Gaines. However the gains are less then what they thought.

OMM
 
To Santana... Listen it usually always makes sense to lengthen the cycle time if the purpose is to build more mass. Please remember what and how AAS helps your body in the production of MM.

So for that reason the more time on the more time to synthesize the production of such. That is why I do not endorse short cycles.... If the same purpose as I mentioned.

You have to consider what time is necessary to break down, repair and then to produce more muscle fibers ( weight). Our weight gain does not parallel the muscle gains. Before the muscle produces it's lean fibers it will fill with fluids all the while we repair and produce. I am NOT talking about subcutaneous water. I am talking about glycogen and other..... However as we lean out we will loose some water weight.

IE: when a guy diets down, depletes carbs etc.. We go ad far as we can without flattening out. We should be then in a balanced muscle make-up .

I hope this all makes sense? Ah, ha... this is ^^^ discussion is why I just make the blanket statements.

With all due respect it is hard for the novice to understand.

Lol, haaa, but I will say its always fun to bulk n get BIG..... We would say upon entering the gym " Time to get Big"

OMM
 
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oldmusclemike said:
Our weight gain does not parallel the muscle gains. Before the muscle produces it's lean fibers it will fill with fluids all the while we repair and produce. I am NOT talking about subcutaneous water. I am talking about glycogen and other.....
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining everything.
This is very interesting information as I've always wondered why my muscles go from hard to slushie-like-meat the day after then back to hard again, specially my chest and biceps do that.
 
Glad I helped... This is what O'logy is all about. And in that this is what I like to do... Ha lol, as long as I know what the hell I'm talking about. Shit ain't that the question :wavey:
OMM
 
The 15-20lb in year one, with dimenishing returns after comes from Mark Rippetoe originally I think, who is seriously probably one of the greatest powerlifting coaches ever. Michael Mathews also subscribed to this theory and supports it with scientific research. The only thing is that both of these guys expertise is in developing the natural physique. Michael Mathews goes to great pains to clarify this. If you get on google scholar (let’s you access the acedemic journal database for free) you can find the article “the effects of supraphysiological doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.” This article tested 43 men in four groups. The group that received 600mg testosterone plus excercise saw a fat-free mass gain of 6.1kg or 13.4 pounds. In my opinion that means it should be very possible to gain over 20 pounds in one year if it’s your first year on AAS. Especially if you are genetically gifted. I’ve also requested to loan another study done that combined testosterone plus HGH from the database I can access through my college, but it might be awhile. It can be hard to get access to most acedemic peer-reviewed studies for us regular people, but it’s necessary that they are submitted to peer-review for us to trust that there is any truth to them at all.

Haha and I had been up for almost two days when I posted this original post. I was writing an 80 page paper on literacy education, and was not in my right mind. My bad guys. Hey but at least the discussion here was kinda cool. Also I know I shouldn’t have added D-bol to this cycle, but it was just sitting there looking at me ya know?
 
I will also say that 43 people is not a very big sample. If we were using that sample size for effects of any pharmaceutical drug for therapeutic use through prescription, it would be discounted with the blink of an eye. Or at least built upon with another study with a larger sample size. That is just never going to happen with AAS. So anecdotal evidence is all we have. The study also didn’t have an intraobserver agreement, which means the study also could have just been skewed. Lol just because someone did a study and published it on a scientific database still doesn’t mean it’s true. That’s why it’s fun though, we all just try to educate ourselves the best we can, to take the best guesses on the best theories.
 
This one actually just compared 600mg w/exercise and 600mg no/exercise vs no test w/exercise and just exercise. It’s pretty good, they also measured the differences in muscle size for all major muscles before and after
 
Scienceteacher112 said:
The 15-20lb in year one, with dimenishing returns after comes from Mark Rippetoe originally I think, who is seriously probably one of the greatest powerlifting coaches ever. Michael Mathews also subscribed to this theory and supports it with scientific research. The only thing is that both of these guys expertise is in developing the natural physique. Michael Mathews goes to great pains to clarify this. If you get on google scholar (let***8217;s you access the acedemic journal database for free) you can find the article ***8220;the effects of supraphysiological doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.***8221; This article tested 43 men in four groups. The group that received 600mg testosterone plus excercise saw a fat-free mass gain of 6.1kg or 13.4 pounds. In my opinion that means it should be very possible to gain over 20 pounds in one year if it***8217;s your first year on AAS. Especially if you are genetically gifted. I***8217;ve also requested to loan another study done that combined testosterone plus HGH from the database I can access through my college, but it might be awhile. It can be hard to get access to most acedemic peer-reviewed studies for us regular people, but it***8217;s necessary that they are submitted to peer-review for us to trust that there is any truth to them at all.

Haha and I had been up for almost two days when I posted this original post. I was writing an 80 page paper on literacy education, and was not in my right mind. My bad guys. Hey but at least the discussion here was kinda cool. Also I know I shouldn***8217;t have added D-bol to this cycle, but it was just sitting there looking at me ya know?
Click to expand...

No need to apologize sir, and yes a great discussion.
 
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