very first cycle: i Need some help from pros about sides since i know i'm prone

[harveus]

Hello, i have finally decided to begin my very frist cycle at 25 ( 26 in early july ) after almost 5 years of natural training ( last 3 years i used eca and clen for cutting during summer,but nothing else )

i've done my reserce but i need some help from expert in choosing/adjusting compounds since i already know i am naturally prone to both mpb and gyno and i wish to keep sides at the very minimum if not possibly absent.

theese are my stats

25 ys old ( 26 in 2 months )

6,0 feet ( or 181cm )

190 lbs ( 86 kilos )

between 14 and 16 % body fat ( not mesured but i have barely visible abs when flexing, i can see striatures when flexing chest in good lighting but i think that's becouse of my genetics, i'm ecto - mesomorph ( perfectly straight long calves,very tiny waist (a la jeff seid ), but very small bones, small hands,wrists etc. )


i'm prone to both gyno and male pattern baldness my goals are to keep this size ( or maybe put 3-5 lbs of lean mass ) and get single digits shredded without loosing mutch if any lean mass while keeping sides at the minimum possible,taking in account i'm very prone to this two things, So, i need some advice on the cycle to be safe and possible reach this goals


my cycle will be

12 weeks

test E ( 250 mgl 1 each week )

tren E ( 50 mgl 2 times a week, first pin coupled with test,second one alone after 2 days) Note: i know tren is very hard on the hair and i'm willing to drop it,but i like the idea of shedding fat and building mass at the same time only tren will give, since i'm doing two pins per week at 50 mlgs each, will strong sides on hair still apply given i'm very prone? and if so what can i expect?

eca and clen cycled every 2 days each ( i already know the correct doses for those since i already used them )

i have no pct and by this i mean i know about arimidex,nolva and clomid, but i simply don't know if they will do for me with this cycle and at what dose use them for them to be affective,given i'm very prone to sides ( also i don't have any access to hgc,so that is out of the picture)


so, any advice bout this whole picture guys? thanks

 

[Teutonic]

Welcome

I ll not bash nor allow for any but your goal s are attainable naturally. Gyno and MPB will recquire lot s of other drugs, blood work. It gets costly and in depth-very.

Tren...no way son.

Ur going from pump gas ( natty) to premium/race fuel by adding test when ur HPTA is running just fine to throwing nitrous into a stock motor..

 

[harveus]

thank you for welcoming me. i know they (kinda ) are ottainable naturally, the problem is, even with cutting with eca and clen i can never, EVER menage to keep all my mass going from 14-15 % to 7-8% and this rollearcoaster after 3 years i seriusly cut in the summer is getting pretty annyoing. i mean io basically spend the whole year to re gain the mass i loose while i cut i gain fat, than to shed fat i meange to do so but loose AGAIN all the mass i gaind in the winter..it's maddening. i cannot keep 85-86 kilos at 8%. i'm just unable to do so without juice, that's why i decided to drop on. but me beeing so prone to sides is what stopped me to ever try them so far...

so yeah, no tren at all hu? not even 100 mgl split in two pins a week of 50 each ( with test at 250 base obiusly)? no? tought so...damn

 

[Teutonic]

Not yet

It s for cattle....and it s got some serious, potential sides

 

[harveus]

so,given the picture, what would you suggest me to do? i'm open to any sort of change in the cycle, provided i'm safe and i get the desired resoults. thank you

 

[cruiser1019]

You could start by reading this thread http://www.steroidology.com/forum/a...ycling-beginners-guide-safe-androgen-use.html

 

[harveus]

if i choose to begin with only 250 test e one a week for 12 weeks, you confirm this pct correct as described in the thread yuo linked?

Clomafene Citrate 50mg everyday for 4 weeks
Tamoxifen citrate 40mg every day 2 weeks followed by 20mg everyday for 2 weeks


also ,with onlt one shot at 250, for 12 weeks coupled with eca and clen, will i resonalby be able to mantain weight ( or even add couple lbs ) and go to 8-7% with very minimum losses?

what about the sides? how strong should i expect to be effected by test on the hair? and given i already know i will most likely run in to gyno should i run arimidex during cycle? and if so, at what doses?

thank you for the info

 

[Teutonic]

No offense...read read read...

This I phone instant answer mindset gives me a rash...no offense my man. I ll help anyone but not just hand the key s to the kingdom to a plebian. ( Look it up that was not a bad word )

 

[oldmusclemike]

Listen man TooTuff is being very patient and helpful, but you are asking for him and others here to spoon feed you. If we do you will never know why, and further more someone could tell you shit and bad advice. If you have some basic or more understanding , knowledge , you can make decisions.

Read ALL the sticky's back where you came in.

FORGET Tren, crap it's your first cycle, you and your body will go nuts. The sides for MOST people are hard to handle and for some people can be scary. I myself have night sweats to the point of having to change shirts 4 times and then I can and have gotten severe chills.

By the way you said Test E at 250 mg and that will do bullshit for you. No sense in shutting your system down for that dose. That dose might just put you back to your natty test level.

Good luck , read up more and get back to keep us posted.

PS: You need to run an AI from day (1) Now if you read you will see that and understand why.

 

[harveus]

Listen man TooTuff is being very patient and helpful, but you are asking for him and others here to spoon feed you. If we do you will never know why, and further more someone could tell you shit and bad advice. If you have some basic or more understanding , knowledge , you can make decisions.

Read ALL the sticky's back where you came in.

FORGET Tren, crap it's your first cycle, you and your body will go nuts. The sides for MOST people are hard to handle and for some people can be scary. I myself have night sweats to the point of having to change shirts 4 times and then I can and have gotten severe chills.

By the way you said Test E at 250 mg and that will do bullshit for you. No sense in shutting your system down for that dose. That dose might just put you back to your natty test level.

Good luck , read up more and get back to keep us posted.

PS: You need to run an AI from day (1) Now if you read you will see that and understand why.

thanks for your advice guys, i don't mean disrespect or to be spoon fed, it's just that english is not my native lenguage an it's a bit difficoult to reserch everything in wall of textes about the subject i'm bound to not understeand averything that is why i'm asking to people directly, i already reserched a bit but it would be easyer to talk real facts with real experienced people. your first hand experience it's invaluable and i'm willing to listen the best i can to do things right. Also oldmuscle,from your pic i gather we have quite the similar bodyshape so maybe we react to stuff in a similar way. you have to keep in mind tough regarding the test dose that i'm beginning really low for 2 reasons: 1) this is basically a cut/ full mantainance cycle, not a proper mass builder cycle 2) i ALREADY know, i'm really prone to androgenetic sides EVEN on natural status, that is why i don't feel to run any sort of compound higher than minimum effective dose. from what i have gathered 250 per week it's still like 3 times my natural production, so it surprises me the fact you think it will do shit to me, esepcially since as i said, i don't plan to put on more than 4-5 libs in a 12 week period. i just want to get really lean and mantain all my muscle. are you sure 250 it's still to low for that?

 

[Milton]

thanks for your advice guys, i don't mean disrespect or to be spoon fed, it's just that english is not my native lenguage an it's a bit difficoult to reserch everything in wall of textes about the subject i'm bound to not understeand averything that is why i'm asking to people directly, i already reserched a bit but it would be easyer to talk real facts with real experienced people. your first hand experience it's invaluable and i'm willing to listen the best i can to do things right. Also oldmuscle,from your pic i gather we have quite the similar bodyshape so maybe we react to stuff in a similar way. you have to keep in mind tough regarding the test dose that i'm beginning really low for 2 reasons: 1) this is basically a cut/ full mantainance cycle, not a proper mass builder cycle 2) i ALREADY know, i'm really prone to androgenetic sides EVEN on natural status, that is why i don't feel to run any sort of compound higher than minimum effective dose. from what i have gathered 250 per week it's still like 3 times my natural production, so it surprises me the fact you think it will do shit to me, esepcially since as i said, i don't plan to put on more than 4-5 libs in a 12 week period. i just want to get really lean and mantain all my muscle. are you sure 250 it's still to low for that?

Thanks for the explanation no worries good advice and help will continue to come, please keep us posted!

 

[oldmusclemike]

Good reply OP. I'm not so sure you will get the results in the increase of your test level on 250mgs. Someone else might know better. But you are young and your levels should be high.

You can cut and stay lean on Test at 500mgs and more if you manage your Estrogen. That's where the bloat comes from. Also when you build more MASS and if with that come some bloat, remember it's water in which you can loose quite easily and will peel off you after cycle.

After cycle when you / others loose weight and think they are losing all the gains, it's water. Now if they continue to train and eat. When a guy increases hi weight by 20-40 lbs and then comes back down to only a ten pound gain it's the water and he can keep the muscle mass if the training doesn't slow as most do.

In my experience and knowledge you can stay as lean as 250mgs wk as 500mgs wk. It depends on you "E" mostly. Read our sticky post where you came in to post, on Estrogen and Prolactin. It's marked a sticky. I'm on 600mgs wk of Test and 600mgs Deca in my 5th and 6th week and I am staying quite lean by keeping my "E" controlled and not consuming too many calories, but enough to build. But t's early yet for me. Or anyone at this amount of weeks in.

Sorry guys for my long posts. I'll try to be shorter.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Hey welcome to the site. I'm as pro as it get here with out an MD following a name. I will recomend you shelve the cycle and spend your money on a diet consultant. We have a guy here who can get you to 220 and 10% bf naturally. You'll keep your hair and you will be a lot closer to being ready to cycle in a few years.

 

[Teutonic]

He is the man OP.

Prop s for not getting bent over not being ALL the knowledge u seek Luke...AAS ARE not beer and weed.

 

[harveus]

thanks oldmuscle i am considering dubling the weekly dose of test to reach 500 eventually, my problem tough as i said is not really getting "too big" with a proper test cycle, but rather the virtually certain harsh sides i'm going to get from any substance, so in theory the lower the better right? might not be the case with test concerning shut down once you passed natural levels, but i think it might make a difference in how hard the gyno and hairloss will hit me in return at a higher doses. that is why i originally wanted to pair 250 test e with 50 tren e twice a week. I thought : even if theese are two compounds at the same time 350 mlg a week it's still way less than 500, even if that 500 was only one substance,and since E has a slow release, with 1,max 2 pins per week i don't get to have crazy high ormones levels troughout all the week wich, in my specific case,might be actually a good idea. Apparently tough you tell me that tren is out of the picture no matter at what dose becouse the sides are always terrible,so i basically left only with "half" the cycle i had planned in the beginning. Now i have basically 3 choices : 1) i do as you say and duble the test dose,but risk harsher sides 2) i add another substance that is not tren to the equation ( but at this point the question becomes: wich one? and at what doses to obtain my goal and be realitively safe? i would already say that winstrol is not an option since i know it's almost as hard as tren on hairs And induces other nasty problems to the articulations, but so? what do i use?) or option 3) i test my luck with "only" 250 test a week and play russian roulette potentially beeing shut down for nothing and wasting money, or maybe not. first cycle i simply cannot know how i will react even to a low dose.

the choice is hard given the facts.


@ pirate Roberts: well i surely would consider the "stay natural and still get bigger and leaner" as an option, let's say option 4) if only i know how to do it ahah. as i said in 3 years even using clen and eca to cut i'm stuck in this up and down of about 7-8 kilos i loose when i cut and i regain when i bulk, and i won't say most of thoose are muscle, but a substantial part it is yes. i simply don't know how to minimize that at this point,that's why i'm considering Juice in the first place. I would certanly like to be helped by your friend but i don't live in the states i could never meet this guy to speak with him properly so i don't see how i can do this without oberating him online with lots of mails atc. ( wich i would guess he would not like to do ) but hey, any suggestion on how to increase my resoults as a natural are more than welcome,thank you.

by the way it's the pirate roberts from princes bride? i love that movie, saw it many times as a child! "mi nombre es inigo montoya, tu hai ucciso mi padre.... preparate a morir!"

ahahha always cracks me up

 

[blakey]

Not getting to big on 500 mgs of test hahaha like evreyone said man its all about diet . I woudnt just run the 250 you will get all the negative side effects shutting down your own test and having to do a pct for no benifits i know guys that are on 250 mg a week for a trt dose . Evreyone is diffrent but for me diet is were i usally stuff up or just not do what i should be doing its all about what you eat you can cut on 500mgs of test or bulk its about what your eating at the time goodluck mate

 

[oldmusclemike]

OP, sorry but you only get part of what we are telling you.

1. As soon as you introduce exogenous Testosterone in your body you WILL SHUT DOWN. It's not when you get above your natural level. However "yes" the higher your Test level the higher your Estrogen most usually.

2. there should be no choice on adding another compound. As you say you don't know how your body will react to anything. This is your 1st so use your own logic as we all agree no stack, just Test E. Why up the potential of sides.

3. The fact that you even mention Winstrol in your thoughts tell me you don't know what it is used for. Like most people have the wrong idea. Learn the steroid profiles.

4. STOP over thinking this thing. You are putting TOO much emphasis on the steroids. A boost in your Test level and proper diet is the key. AND then of course the training.

5. You are worried about having half the cycle planned. Well Test only will do everything you need and you shouldn't have been planning anything more, so again read more.

Just do the Test at whatever dose you want. Remember we only give suggestions. At the end of the day you will do what you want. However I will, one more time reiterate no other compound and the Test is ALL you need. You are thinking so much about adding another and what that you don't seem to be putting in as much thought as to controlling your Estrogen, like spending the money on more Blood work. Learning on how to watch the sides by more knowledge of them so you can squelch them as quickly as you can. Gyno is but one.

I think your Q's have been answered.

 

[harveus]

OP, sorry but you only get part of what we are telling you.

1. As soon as you introduce exogenous Testosterone in your body you WILL SHUT DOWN. It's not when you get above your natural level. However "yes" the higher your Test level the higher your Estrogen most usually.

2. there should be no choice on adding another compound. As you say you don't know how your body will react to anything. This is your 1st so use your own logic as we all agree no stack, just Test E. Why up the potential of sides.

3. The fact that you even mention Winstrol in your thoughts tell me you don't know what it is used for. Like most people have the wrong idea. Learn the steroid profiles.

4. STOP over thinking this thing. You are putting TOO much emphasis on the steroids. A boost in your Test level and proper diet is the key. AND then of course the training.

5. You are worried about having half the cycle planned. Well Test only will do everything you need and you shouldn't have been planning anything more, so again read more.

Just do the Test at whatever dose you want. Remember we only give suggestions. At the end of the day you will do what you want. However I will, one more time reiterate no other compound and the Test is ALL you need. You are thinking so much about adding another and what that you don't seem to be putting in as much thought as to controlling your Estrogen, like spending the money on more Blood work. Learning on how to watch the sides by more knowledge of them so you can squelch them as quickly as you can. Gyno is but one.

I think your Q's have been answered.

let me just ask one more thing, since actually i did spend the day to reaserch the various different substances in regard to what you just said, particularly estrogen level and how to minimize them and...well the best thing i found is anavar. apparently with anavar i will still get suppression and i will stil l need a proper pct, like for a test only cycle but there is a very very minor impact on hairs only and that is all. anavar will not couse gyno apparently.

so what if i do a 40-80 mg/day of anavar for 8-10 weeks instead of what i initially planned? do you think i will get similar resoults? i read that at 100mg a day anavar is ctually MORE efficent than 500 mgl of test a week, but without pins and with half the bad sides, it's a win win situation no?

 

[Roush]

let me just ask one more thing, since actually i did spend the day to reaserch the various different substances in regard to what you just said, particularly estrogen level and how to minimize them and...well the best thing i found is anavar. apparently with anavar i will still get suppression and i will stil l need a proper pct, like for a test only cycle but there is a very very minor impact on hairs only and that is all. anavar will not couse gyno apparently.

so what if i do a 40-80 mg/day of anavar for 8-10 weeks instead of what i initially planned? do you think i will get similar resoults? i read that at 100mg a day anavar is ctually MORE efficent than 500 mgl of test a week, but without pins and with half the bad sides, it's a win win situation no?

your way off base, and trying to complicate something that does not have to be complicated. VAR only cycles are for women. Var will shut you down, therefore men need to run exogenous testosterone along with Var.
fact is , you need to run testosterone with EVERY cycle you do , period. thats why for a first time cycle, you only run just Test. because it will need to be ran on every cycle going forward. its that simple . TEST ONLY. see how you react and see how your body aromatizes with just test, and see how well you do controlling that and the sides by running an AI .

if you CANNOT effectively run a test only cycle without sides, then AAS use is just not for you.

 

[Roush]

Op , your number one concern about AAS use seems to be 'avoiding sides' - well, the number one and most pronounced side effect of any steroid use is this - it shuts down your natural testosterone production . That is the MAIN SIDE effect . AND it does not matter if you inject 100 mg a week of test, or 900 mg a week of test , that side is going to happen, equally, no matter what.

as for secondary side effects of testosterone , the main one is aromatization . The converting of testosterone into estrogen in the fat cells by the aromatase enzyme. this side is easily controllable . you just run an AI to keep this from happening . if you do that then ALL the other sides that come with that will not be an issue (gyno, water retention, limp dick, emotional stress, etc.).

with this tool (ie., running an AI), there should be no issues from running 250mg of test to running 500mg of test. the sides will be manageable with either dose, with the 500mg dose actually being high enough to have the added benefit of 'anabolism' for muscle building.

note: however, Tren is an entirely different beast. It comes with it own set of sides that are not easily manageable, you just have to live through the nightmare until its over.