What experience level for SARM use

[nailhead91]

Thanks for all the responses...seems a little controversy was started, not what I intended to do.

I'm 25, mainly my interest in doing a cycle is because personally I feel like I've hit a plateau, and I'm human lol always want results faster. I'm not opposed to waiting or anything, just kinda seeking info to better educate myself and anyone else I come across.

But as far as my basic gym history goes, back in September when I started training I was 250lb, I dropped down to 193lb and now have been gaining muscle since (sitting right around 200lb currently) I'm 6'0 tall.

My diet is super clean, I eat 5-6 times a day. all lean protein and veggies, roughly 2,200-2,500 a day. I'm very careful with carbs as I've noticed my body is a little more sensitive to them than most I.e. If I have more than one serving of carbs a day I'll start slowly adding weight back on that I don't want.

I'd definitely agree that I'm a noob, no doubt, but I do feel that I do feel that I hit the gym harder than most people at my level. Every morning it's up at 5am to go so 30 mins of HIIT and an hour of steady state, work, and then in the evening I lift for minimum of 90 mins, but usually around 120mins. I do core 4 days out of the week after i lift for roughly 30-45 mins.

So I'm working my ass off and haven't seemed to have gotten anywhere in the last couple of months, which we all know can be disheartening and unfortunately the first thing we usually turn to is hmmm what can I take?

I feel at minimum I could be adding GW or SR into my stack and it wouldn't be a problem....just because from my understanding they aren't technically SARMs. Which as far as stacks, I take whey of course, amino's, and creatine. So I'm definitely open to any suggestions to help better myself and get me off of this stage I've been at for what feels like forever lol.

 

[Megatron28]

Thanks for all the responses...seems a little controversy was started, not what I intended to do.

I'm 25, mainly my interest in doing a cycle is because personally I feel like I've hit a plateau, and I'm human lol always want results faster. I'm not opposed to waiting or anything, just kinda seeking info to better educate myself and anyone else I come across.

But as far as my basic gym history goes, back in September when I started training I was 250lb, I dropped down to 193lb and now have been gaining muscle since (sitting right around 200lb currently) I'm 6'0 tall.

My diet is super clean, I eat 5-6 times a day. all lean protein and veggies, roughly 2,200-2,500 a day. I'm very careful with carbs as I've noticed my body is a little more sensitive to them than most I.e. If I have more than one serving of carbs a day I'll start slowly adding weight back on that I don't want.

I'd definitely agree that I'm a noob, no doubt, but I do feel that I do feel that I hit the gym harder than most people at my level. Every morning it's up at 5am to go so 30 mins of HIIT and an hour of steady state, work, and then in the evening I lift for minimum of 90 mins, but usually around 120mins. I do core 4 days out of the week after i lift for roughly 30-45 mins.

So I'm working my ass off and haven't seemed to have gotten anywhere in the last couple of months, which we all know can be disheartening and unfortunately the first thing we usually turn to is hmmm what can I take?

I feel at minimum I could be adding GW or SR into my stack and it wouldn't be a problem....just because from my understanding they aren't technically SARMs. Which as far as stacks, I take whey of course, amino's, and creatine. So I'm definitely open to any suggestions to help better myself and get me off of this stage I've been at for what feels like forever lol.

Nailhead,

Those huge mass gain you experience are called Noob Gains. You were in the honeymoon period where you were gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. The honeymoon is over. You need to work harder for your gains now and work smarter. You are not going to continue to put on muscle mass while in a caloric deficit and doing HIIT. Let me say that again so it resonates. Caloric deficit and/or HIIT <> mass gains.

You have to pick a goal. Continue to lose fat or build muscle mass. You can't do both at the same time without being on steroids. So you have NOT hit a plateau. You just haven't synced up your diet, training and goals. You can do one now and then the other later (timing needs to be correct). For example, a lot of guys bulk in the Fall/Winter and then cut down as it gets closer to beach time.

Give it some serious thought and then tell us what your goals are. We can help you get there Natty for now and when the right time comes we can help you decide is SARMs or AAS is a good choice.

 

[Megatron28]

Good conversation...lets keep it going, lol. Where have you once read that SARMs have MOST or ALL of the risks/downsides of AAS? You will not find one credible medical journal or lab results that even come close to this. I can post journals and expert analyses until tomorrow morning...and you won't find that kind of information. Some say that S4 is suppressive at very high doses...but rare. Please read the info on sarmsinfo.com and tell me what you think. Thanks again.

SARMS Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators Reviews Continued

Ok. I did some more digging this morning through some studies I had bookmarked a while back. Here are some snippets about HPTA suppression on SARM's. One of the things that really bugs me about SARMs though is that it is hard to find human studies -- very few out there - and they don't seem to look at LH/FSH. Most studies I can find are on rats.

Selective androgen receptor modulators in preclinical and clinical development

Male hormonal contraception: Despite prevalent use of oral contraceptives for women, no oral pharmacologic option has been approved for men. Hair et al. [Hair et al., 2001] found that desogestrel, an oral synthetic progestin, in combination with a transdermal testosterone patch, reversibly suppressed spermatogenesis, but was not as efficacious as combination testosterone injection regimens. Preclinical studies in our laboratory have shown that propionamide SARMs suppress luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) through the hypothalamus-pituitary-testis axis in rats, thus decreasing testosterone in a dose-dependent manner [Chen et al., 2005a]. Furthermore, spermatogenesis was found to be significantly decreased with 1 mg/day treatment for 10 weeks in these animals with the SARM, C-6 (see literature for structure). Studies with the SARM, LGD2226, assessing the effects on mating behavior of rats, show maintenance of libido and sexual function in rats [Miner et al., 2007]. As a whole, these data are encouraging towards the development of a SARM as a male contraceptive pill.

BMS has published the preclinical characterization of their only clinical candidate, BMS-564929 (29), which combines the low mutagenicity A-ring already discussed with a [5.5] hydantoin B-ring, as exemplified by (26) [Ostrowski et al., 2007; Wilson, 2007]. BMS-564929 (29) is a potent and hyperanabolic agonist compared to testosterone in skeletal muscle (LA) with an efficacy of 125% (comparable to other SARMs) and high potency (ED50 = 0.0009 mg/kg), with hypostimulation of the prostate relative to testosterone (ED50 = 0.14 mg/kg). As illustrated in Figure 5, these experiments in castrated rats demonstrated a 160-fold selectivity for LA compared to prostate, which they characterized as ***8216;unprecedented muscle vs. prostate selectivity.***8217; However, BMS may have over-estimated the selectivity of their compound, as evidenced by irregularities in the dose response curves and size of the prostate and LA muscle in castrated rats. Further, the limiting factor for this compound is the 9-fold selectivity between muscle action (i.e., myoanabolic activity) and LH suppression (ED50 = 0.008 mg/kg). LH suppression may cause side effects, especially in elderly men, due to suppression of endogenous testosterone and subsequently estrogen levels, leading to detrimental effects on multiple organs systems including pro-osteoporotic changes in bone. BMS-564929 (29) is reported to be in Phase I clinical trials for age-related functional decline. In October 2007, BMS licensed their SARM program including BMS-564929 (29) (now PS178990) and various back-up compounds to Pharmacopeia Drug Discovery.

Acadia Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ***8211; aminophenyl derivatives
Acadia patented a novel template for SARMs involving typical A-rings, but the aniline component is a [3.2.1] tricyclic ring system, similar to some of the BMS templates. Acadia reported compounds with modest potency in terms of in vitro transcriptional agonist activity (mid to high nM range) with efficacies ranging from 41% to 94% (World patent application WO2005 115361 [Schlienger et al., 2005]). Compound 154BG31 ((64) in Figure 9) produced significant increases in VP, SV, and LA as compared to vehicle. LA weight was approximately 60% at a dose of 30 mg/kg, as compared to testosterone propionate (1 mg/kg), whereas VP was approximately 20%. This represents ***8764;3-fold tissue-selectivity, but only partial myoanabolic agonism. 154BG31 (64) also fully suppressed LH at a dose of 10 mg/kg, which is in the same range as myoanabolic activity, possibly limiting the utility of these compounds for muscle indications. Compound 198RL26 (65) was separately reported to be a high affinity ligand (79% with an in vitro potency of pEC50 = 8.8) and was selected for in vivo experimentation. Like 154BG31, 198RL26 (65) is an in vivo partial myoanabolic agonist of similar potency and efficacy, and produced a dose-dependent suppression of plasma LH levels such that a complete reversal was evident at 10 mg/kg, suggesting CNS penetration (US patent application US2006 0160845 [Schlienger et al., 2006]). Acadia also reported ACP-105 (structure unknown) as a SARM development candidate that has reversed endocrine and bone-related markers of testosterone deficiency in preclinical animal testing, with little effect on the prostrate (unpublished data).




Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) as Function Promoting Therapies

Structural modifications of aryl propionamide analogs bicalutamide and hydroxyflutamide led to the discovery of the first generation of SARMs. Compounds S1 and S4 in this series bind AR with high affinity, and demonstrate tissue selectivity in the Hershberger assay that utilizes castrated rat model (35***8211;37). In this castrated rat model, both S1 and S4 prevented castration induced atrophy of levator ani muscle, and acted as weak agonists in the prostate (35, 37, 38). At a dose of 3 mg/kg/day, S4 partially restored the prostate weight to < 20% of intact, but fully restored the levator ani weight, skeletal muscle strength, bone mineral density, bone strength, and lean body mass, and suppressed LH and FSH (39, 40). S4 also prevented ovariectomy-induced bone loss in female rat model of osteoporosis (41). The ability of SARMs to promote both muscle strength and bone mechanical strength constitutes a unique advantage over other therapies for osteoporosis that only increase bone density.

S1 and S4 are partial agonists; thus, in intact male rats (37), S1 and S4 compete with endogenous androgens and act as antagonists in prostate, such SARMs with antagonistic or low intrinsic activity in prostate might be useful in the treatment of BPH or prostate cancer. The suppressive effects of this class of SARMs on gonadotropin secretion in rats suggest potential application for male contraception (37).

he hydantoin derivatives, developed by the BMS group (43), have an A-ring structure that is similar to that of bicalutamide. The cyano or nitro group of these molecules interacts with Q711 and R752 (44, 45). The benzene ring or the naphthyl group, together with the hydantoin ring, overlaps the steroid plane, while the hydantoin ring nitrogen forms H bond with N705. BMS-564929 binds AR with high affinity and high specificity. BMS-564929 demonstrated anabolic activity in the levator ani muscle, and high degree of tissue selectivity as indicated by a substantially higher ED50 for the prostate. Hydantoin derivatives are potent suppressors of LH. BMS-564929 is orally available in humans, with half life of 8***8211;14 hours. The prolonged half-life of these ligands in rats may explain the lower dose needed to achieve pharmacological effects; differences in in vivo activities of SARMs that share similar binding affinity and in vitro activity may be related to the differences in pharmacokinetics and drug exposure (46).

 

[nailhead91]

Nailhead,

Those huge mass gain you experience are called Noob Gains. You were in the honeymoon period where you were gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. The honeymoon is over. You need to work harder for your gains now and work smarter. You are not going to continue to put on muscle mass while in a caloric deficit and doing HIIT. Let me say that again so it resonates. Caloric deficit and/or HIIT <> mass gains.

You have to pick a goal. Continue to lose fat or build muscle mass. You can't do both at the same time without being on steroids. So you have NOT hit a plateau. You just haven't synced up your diet, training and goals. You can do one now and then the other later (timing needs to be correct). For example, a lot of guys bulk in the Fall/Winter and then cut down as it gets closer to beach time.

Give it some serious thought and then tell us what your goals are. We can help you get there Natty for now and when the right time comes we can help you decide is SARMs or AAS is a good choice.

Hey man, thanks for giving good advice. A lot of people I try and talk to always want to remain close lipped when it comes to direction...

I guess probably cutting fat would be the goal right now. And then come fall/winter start bulking. Mainly I just want to look good lol I don't want to lose any mass I've gained because I'm loving the progress (gained about 3 inches in my biceps) but I also want the fat gone so more definition is showing.

So personally what would you recommend? As I mentioned before, I feel like I could add GW or SR and it wouldn't be a problem...I've actually already tried GW and felt minimal results, but I also didn't learn how to dose properly for myself until the last week of the cycle, but from my understanding those 2 aren't actually SARMs so it's not really effecting a whole lot.

 

[TRUEGRIT]

Hey man, thanks for giving good advice. A lot of people I try and talk to always want to remain close lipped when it comes to direction...

I guess probably cutting fat would be the goal right now. And then come fall/winter start bulking. Mainly I just want to look good lol I don't want to lose any mass I've gained because I'm loving the progress (gained about 3 inches in my biceps) but I also want the fat gone so more definition is showing.

So personally what would you recommend? As I mentioned before, I feel like I could add GW or SR and it wouldn't be a problem...I've actually already tried GW and felt minimal results, but I also didn't learn how to dose properly for myself until the last week of the cycle, but from my understanding those 2 aren't actually SARMs so it's not really effecting a whole lot.

I am currently taking GW50 @ 25mg/ed approx 30 min before my workout. I couldn't be more pleased with it so far. My energy & endurance is at a level that it never has been before. But its a clean increase in energy unlike how clen gives me the shakes & I often don't feel well off of even a small dose. I'm also on Ostarine & Mk677...triple stack...and after 7 days feel great & body is feeling like it would 3 weeks into an AAS cycle. I'm not just saying this bc I'm affiliated w SarmsSearch, but this three stack is absolutely awesome!

 

[TRUEGRIT]

I agree the limited info with running human trials is a pain in the ass. That's why we have loggers interested in our products keep such detailed unbiased logs. If one doesn't like the product & by chance can help us gain a better understanding of the sarm & try to find scholarly & medical info to diagnose what is going on. We do in fact have a team that is involved in providing as much as possible, but as you said, not too much out there right now.

Thanks for providing that info Mega!

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Ok let's all take a breath and relax and slowly take the wad you have up ARSE out and take a breath.

TrueGrit is here to help answer questions about Sarms for the members. He is Pro Sarms. Sarms are not Steroids and don't have the same negative side effects as Steroids. The truth is we would much rather see the newbies use Sarms than jump into a Steroid cycle they are not ready for.

We always advocate education, planning , consulting others with experience more educating and more planning.

Diet is always 80% of the battle. It is the most important part of any program and you should spend more time and money on your diet program than your enhancements.

Lets remember TrueGrit is only trying to help people. He isn't the one responsible for the animosity you have. Mellow your Roll.


To the OP I'm sorry about how this all went down. You should be able to ask questions without worrying about Factions going to war on a thread. Please focus on your diet. Research Sarms. having a goal and being educated and organized it the best way to get hit your goals. Enhancement are not magic you have to do the work. Welcome to the community please take advantage of the resources here. The guys here are very knowledgable and they care. That is what sets this place apart from other sites.

 

[Big_rich]

I think gw would always be a welcomed edition no matter the experience or time in the gym. It's non supressive and will help with endurance which in turn will yield a higher output which equals more gains. There is lots of room for error for the fact there is no suppression. No pct required, I highly reccomend gw50 to anyone no matter there experience level. You can't really go wrong with gw.

 

[nailhead91]

Yeah I definitely wasn't looking to start any drama, just trying to educate myself lol.

SR is fairly similar to GW is it not? It can be taken with no sides, etc?

Also my question in general about SARMs...not trying stir up anything lol like I said, just asking questions. Is a lot of them are advertised as strengthening ligaments, bones, etc. and if these were originally designed for patient use (for osteoporosis, etc) so it seems like there would be multiple benefits along with fat loss and muscle growth. Especially considering the lessened side effects.

So again I'm not opposed to holding off or not doing them entirely, but I also want to be as safe as possible if I do choose to do them. I just want info lol it may even be a good case study to have someone at my level doing a cycle to see what kind of results it gives.

 

[Big_rich]

You are correct t they were originally designed to help osteoporosis patients along with patients suffering many other illnesses. They are very safe as long as you get them from solid sources. Each sarm was designed with diffetent goals in mind thou that is why some are better than other for certain goals. I suggest sarmsearch for all your sarm needs they are awesome.

 

[Big_rich]

The boards are full of opinions that's why I suggest everyone do there own research. I reccomend sarmsearch others may reccomend a different source. You did not stir up anything just different people giving there opinions. I can provide facts studies on the affects of sarms. I suggest you research for yourself but if you need more help pm me. I will do my best to answer any questions you have.

 

[TRUEGRIT]

Ok let's all take a breath and relax and slowly take the wad you have up ARSE out and take a breath.

TrueGrit is here to help answer questions about Sarms for the members. He is Pro Sarms. Sarms are not Steroids and don't have the same negative side effects as Steroids. The truth is we would much rather see the newbies use Sarms than jump into a Steroid cycle they are not ready for.

We always advocate education, planning , consulting others with experience more educating and more planning.

Diet is always 80% of the battle. It is the most important part of any program and you should spend more time and money on your diet program than your enhancements.

Lets remember TrueGrit is only trying to help people. He isn't the one responsible for the animosity you have. Mellow your Roll.


To the OP I'm sorry about how this all went down. You should be able to ask questions without worrying about Factions going to war on a thread. Please focus on your diet. Research Sarms. having a goal and being educated and organized it the best way to get hit your goals. Enhancement are not magic you have to do the work. Welcome to the community please take advantage of the resources here. The guys here are very knowledgable and they care. That is what sets this place apart from other sites.

I really appreciate your kind words and helping this thread make a 180 degree turnaround. You and Mega have conducted yourselves in impressive fashion since I have been here, and it's always good to have knowledgeable people come in to put out the fire.

 

[cybrsage]

Yeah I definitely wasn't looking to start any drama, just trying to educate myself lol.

SR is fairly similar to GW is it not? It can be taken with no sides, etc?

SW50 is a PPAR agonist, so while technically not a SARM, everyone lumps it in with SARMs because it is always told by SARMs vendors. That said, most people find excellent performance enhancement from using GW50, though some appear to be non-responders. GW50 increases endurance and decreases recovery time from working out. I love the stuff and run it quite often. It has no known side effects and has absolutely no suppression.

Also my question in general about SARMs...not trying stir up anything lol like I said, just asking questions. Is a lot of them are advertised as strengthening ligaments, bones, etc. and if these were originally designed for patient use (for osteoporosis, etc) so it seems like there would be multiple benefits along with fat loss and muscle growth. Especially considering the lessened side effects.

Yes, you have to look at each individual SARM and see what its intended purpose is and that is what you can expect to get from it. Some AAS do the same thing. To be sure AAS is far stronger than SARMs are, but they also carry more side effects. AAS is illegal in most countries, while SARMs are both legal to buy and sell in most countries (just not legal to imbibe). You have to inject most AAS (at least the good ones, like Testosterone), but you drink SARMs (though the taste is very unfriendly).

So again I'm not opposed to holding off or not doing them entirely, but I also want to be as safe as possible if I do choose to do them. I just want info lol it may even be a good case study to have someone at my level doing a cycle to see what kind of results it gives.

What I would do first is get your diet fully in order. Spend the money would are planning on spending on your first cycle with 3J instead and he will get your diet and exercise routine in proper order. You will see massive changes from this alone. What you learn from him you will know forever, so it is surely money well spent. Go the natty route first and get all the gains you can get from it prior to using any performance enhancing drugs. Get the natty changes first, THEN go for the PEDs.

A nice, easy step in the world of PEDs is a GW50 and S4 stack. S4 is slightly suppressive, so many people play it safe and do PCT afterwards. You should get used to doing PCT anyway if you decide you want to move into the life of using PEDs, so I recommend it to everyone. Most SARMs are only slightly suppressive, though LGD is HIGHLY suppressive, just to be warned. If and when you do go the SARMs route, run a PCT afterwards just to get into the habit of doing the right thing.

I personally like combining SARMs with AAS. Use testosterone to replace anything your body will lose from any suppression you might get (and because testosterone is the king of AAS) while running GW50 for the endurance boost and S4 or Osta for the muscle gains and connective tissue help you get from them. I know a lot of people use MK677 instead of Osta or other SARMs. MK677 is a Growth Hormone Agonist - meaning it forces the body to create more GH than it normally work. It effectively does the same thing as injecting GH, but at a cheaper price. More GH in the body is a good thing, it drops fat and increases muscle while strengthening connective tissues. It increases a feeling of well being and makes your skin and hair healthier. The only downside to MK677 is you must run it for at least 8 months to really see the full benefits of it, just like you must do with injectable GH.

Disclaimer: I would NOT TOUCH ANY PEDs until you are at least 25. PEDs can mess up the body's growth and cause you problems when you are older. This is important! The only PED I would say to do under 25 is GW50, since it has been shown to be safe at earlier ages.

TL,DR: Hire 3J first to get your diet and workout routine in peek shape before doing any PEDs. Then start with GW50 and S4 or Osta (or MK677) for a cycle or two, then start adding in an AAS such as Testosterone (which is the recommended first AAS cycle, testosterone only).

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

I really appreciate your kind words and helping this thread make a 180 degree turnaround. You and Mega have conducted yourselves in impressive fashion since I have been here, and it's always good to have knowledgeable people come in to put out the fire.

It is common practice to get stats and be informed before making suggestions. TO avoid the same issues in the future please understand everyone here has been programmed to seek as much info as possible to make the best informed suggestions. Failure to do so gets ugly.


Thanks for helping out.

 

[Big_rich]

I can respect that but I feel alot of the advice and suggestions are like bro science'(he's big he must be right shyt') like for example 500MG test e is a must for a first cycle. Ive run 350 and have had great gains. Less bloat less sides all around better cycle. The goal of body building is to build muscle. Alot of the advice is someone saying something and everyone else repeating it over and over, dosent mzke it right or true . Gritt knows his shyt he's researched ran the sarms in queston. Real world experience kills all deff better than just believing what someone else says and repeating it

 

[gayeyes]

Research shows that there may be zero to minimal suppression...but most likely cases, a regimented PCT protocol like when coming off AAS is most likely unnecessary. If there was any, it would be no where near what AAS does. Side effects??? All loggers I have using our products have one major complaint...they don't like the taste....not much else noted.

As a SarmsSearch rep you can't really make a blanket statement like this since different SARMs behave differently and need specific considerations. I think there's wide consensus at this point that LGD is highly suppressive and requires a full SERM-based PCT. I'm living proof, lol. Currently on LGD (from your company -- great product btw), just did my mid-cycle bloods and my test came back under 100 and LH/FSH at the very bottom of the range. So not total shutdown, but definitely significant suppression.

 

[mr.bean]

Have any support for the bolded parts? No suppression or PCT needed?

There IS suppression with SARMS.... some even with more suppression than traditionally used AAS itself!
get off the shilling for a buck...
I see these SARMS reps all over other forums acting like this is some sort of life changing compound, it is not, if anything they are a better option to a traditionally more liver toxic oral that is used in cycles (sarms still put stress on liver for the most part by the way). Nothing special here... A GREAT class of products and with alot of uses, but far from some god send from the heavens as these sarms reps seem to try to push too noobs that dont know anybetter...

 

[mr.bean]

I can respect that but I feel alot of the advice and suggestions are like bro science'(he's big he must be right shyt') like for example 500MG test e is a must for a first cycle. Ive run 350 and have had great gains. Less bloat less sides all around better cycle. The goal of body building is to build muscle. Alot of the advice is someone saying something and everyone else repeating it over and over, dosent mzke it right or true . Gritt knows his shyt he's researched ran the sarms in queston. Real world experience kills all deff better than just believing what someone else says and repeating it

*****Respect our forums********

 

[Milton]

There IS suppression with SARMS.... some even with more suppression than traditionally used AAS itself!
get off the shilling for a buck...
I see these SARMS reps all over other forums acting like this is some sort of life changing compound, it is not, if anything they are a better option to a traditionally more liver toxic oral that is used in cycles (sarms still put stress on liver for the most part by the way). Nothing special here... A GREAT class of products and with alot of uses, but far from some god send from the heavens as these sarms reps seem to try to push too noobs that dont know anybetter...

Whats your background in this field?

 

[Big_rich]

You are mistaken bro there is supression and there is shut down. Sarm effects are person to person. But to say sarms are more supressive than AAS is false and bad info. Sarms are a great alternative for someone not ready to step into the world of steroids, or as a alternative to orals. Sarms are safe aslong as you have a solid supplier. I stand behind sarmsearch for quality and there gw is awesome.