What is the fastest anyone has ever felt different from their first injection.

[bigben66]

It isn't quite that simple, but the half life is defined. The rate at which your body is absorbing the drug from the depot to blood stream is an aspect of that half life. My 7% number is a rough swag based on a 10 day halflife. With a 10 day halflife, you're absorbing about 7% of whatever you have in your body at that point.

I didn't claim you could derive blood levels from this "decay" rate as you put it, but the decay rate itself is a simple logarithmic function. Can you explain how the half life would operate otherwise? It is a logarithmic decay already, since a half life is that to begin with. It's arbitrary to pick the half-life point as the point of measurement for the rate though.

I can say that something will be half absorbed in 10 days, then that half will be half absorbed in another 10 days, or I can define a daily rate of decay. For ten days, a 7% absorption, or 93% not absorbed is almost the same curve as a 10 day half life. .93 ^ 10 = .484, so after ten days it's decayed to 48.4% of original. Close enough.

I am open to your points though, perhaps you could describe how it is absorbed differently?

No one would argue that TNE isn't totally absorbed in a day. (Hours actually) And most will acknowledge that test prop hits them quite differently. Claiming that 7% of a test cyp injection is absorbed in the first 24 hours doesn't seem very outlandish. In someone with serum levels below 200, that will be enough to make a difference.

And a bit of reading on how testosterone not only changes muscles over time but also directly affects the ability to recruit muscle fiber in the moment (the entire reason people shoot test no ester just before a workout!) doesn't leave me shocked that someone that low would feel immediately stronger.

Not ruling out a placebo contribution, but ruling out the T for the reasons above doesn't seem appropriate.

Doh

Did you just take Halfwit on in a topic involving math, equations, stats and analysis...

This thread could run and run brothers...

 

[methos0123]

Cyp usually takes 3-6 weeks to fully hit the blood. Placebo is a mofo tho lol

This is false. I checked my levels 4 days after the first shot and it was like 1220 or something...

 

[methos0123]

Cyp usually takes 3-6 weeks to fully hit the blood. Placebo is a mofo tho lol

This is false. I checked my levels 4 days after the first shot and it was like 1220 or something...

I am pretty sure I felt different on the second day, or 1 day and a half because I got my first 200 mg shot at about 500pm.

My blood work 4 days later backs up the fact that it was not placebo.

 

[Gossamer]

This is false. I checked my levels 4 days after the first shot and it was like 1220 or something...

I am pretty sure I felt different on the second day, or 1 day and a half because I got my first 200 mg shot at about 500pm.

My blood work 4 days later backs up the fact that it was not placebo.

Thank you methos.

I'm glad to see you have proof that backs up how you felt. While I had no blood test to verify how I felt after my first 200mg injection, I knew I felt something. Just like I knew the anxiety I felt, was real too.

RR88 wrote:
Gossamer and the others saying they felt the next day. No you didn't lol. And no, not everyone is different to that degree. Certain things hit quicker such as libido but your not feeling it like you think minimum 2 weeks. Don't say those things cause it's ridiculous and mis informs others that are new.

I know you mean well, but you're the one giving out misinformation. Methos just showed proof that some can and do feel something a day or two after their first injection.

You'd be better off not trying to tell people what their experiences are.

 

[Tornadoalley]

This post is starting to go beyond college chemistry and biology. lol Great stuff.

I do know that on my third day I feel flat and dehydrated. I also have a head ache from what could be the dehydration or lack of caffeine. I worked out yesterday in the morning (weights), then an hour on the treadmill later in the evening. I am laid off right now so I am putting in work in the gym.

I am going to find some coffee and drink all the water I can find.. lol

 

[halfwit]

This is false. I checked my levels 4 days after the first shot and it was like 1220 or something...

I am pretty sure I felt different on the second day, or 1 day and a half because I got my first 200 mg shot at about 500pm.

My blood work 4 days later backs up the fact that it was not placebo.

Do you still have a copy of your blood work? I'd like to see some other numbers on there before I comment. (I haven't forgotten about putting up sources and more info - just have to take care of an exam this morning first. )

 

[Billegitimate]

Do you still have a copy of your blood work? I'd like to see some other numbers on there before I comment. (I haven't forgotten about putting up sources and more info - just have to take care of an exam this morning first. )

My gosh, I love it when people can have a discussion in which they don't have the same position yet everything is focused on the facts, rather than getting nasty. There, I loved on ya Halfwit! Uh...in a friendly way.

Back to your previous post, I do understand it takes weeks to get stable levels. Plugging all this into a spreadsheet really helps make that obvious. What's funny, is I have every shot I've ever taken (hcg, Test) in a spreadsheet, every blood test result in that same spreadsheet, every dose of anastrazole. Some say to-may-to, some say to-maw-to...and some say OCD, I say analytical.

Since there is disagreement on the half-life (and I would think the actual operational half-life varies person to person, and varies within that person dependent on several things) I have that value in a cell that is then used in the rest of my formula.

When I switched from t-cyp to t-prop, I added another value for half life and another column for t-prop injections. Both the cyp and prop have a daily decay rate, as well as separate ester weights. All of which combines for a value in the column that is labeled "daily aborbed T". When I stopped my t-cyp injections, I used the spreadsheet to calculate t-prop injections that would increase over time to keep my T levels the same. At the 4 week point, almost all the t-cyp was absorbed, and I was then using t-prop injections that predicted the same amount of absorbed T as the t-cyp previously.

Blood tests before the change from t-cyp showed total T of 1123 and blood tests at the 4 week point showed total T of 1170. Close enough.

None of that is meant to contradict your statement that serum levels can be predicted from the half life, or from the shot amount. But the residual amounts from previous injections can be tracked over time with the half life taken into account, and the amount of T absorbed predicted based on that.

As to why the peak occurs around 48 hours later, I would assume the peak occurs as a function of absorption and clearance rates. Perhaps for the doses we're using that peak is around 48 hours from injection. Makes sense.

But I still believe the T absorbed from the very first shot is going to follow a half-life absorption curve just like all the T injected. If it doesn't, then why does the absorption rate change over time? If it does, then the T that goes into the blood in the first 24 hours from 100 mg is probably (removing ester) between 3 and 5 mg. Compare that to what a healthy male produces, and for someone with very low levels I think that will be felt.

 

[jozifp103]

Great debate guys. A classy example of how two grown, educated men should conduct themselves in a disagreement.

 

[methos0123]

Do you still have a copy of your blood work? I'd like to see some other numbers on there before I comment. (I haven't forgotten about putting up sources and more info - just have to take care of an exam this morning first. )

I should have it. Give me a while to find it.

 

[Billegitimate]

Great debate guys. A classy example of how two grown, educated men should conduct themselves in a disagreement.

<SeverelyOffTopicSubject>
I once sat in on a class at the Acton School of Business. It's all experiential learning, socratic methods employed, and a hard and fast set of rules for discussion. It was amazing! "Class" was in an amphitheater setting, with one student asked to present his analysis of a business scenario. Within a few minutes the "teacher" (more of a discussion facilitator) asked him to pause and asked if anyone disagreed or agreed with his position, and why.

The discussion that ensued was phenomenal, and I was in a room full of super bright guys and gals. But after 3-4 minutes of cordial disagreement and back and forth, one of the students said "Hmmm. I've chosen to change my position, I now agree with yours and disagree with my previous stance."

What? A similar sentiment was expressed several times throughout the class that day. There was no goal to reach total agreement, and no desire for consensus. Those that disagreed still disagreed. But to see people simply state that they had been persuaded to a different position is so rare, that I found myself in absolute awe at what was going on. It was incredible.

</SeverelyOffTopicSubject>

 

[JimiThing]

It is not placebo. Blood levels of T increase significantly overnight. With another significant increase in 48 hrs. This is acting in your body. Test increase effects you in many ways. Emotionally, psychologically and so on. It is not placebo IMO. I feel changes very quickly as far as sex drive and I get more outgoing and talkative. This does not take weeks for me, at all.

 

[JimiThing]

ABSTRACT


The pharmacokinetics of 2 testosterone esters, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, were compared in a single blind crossover study in healthy young men. Their effects on serum and salivary levels of testosterone, as well as on the serum levels of LH, FSH and proclactin were measured after the injection of doses equivalent to 140 mg free testosterone. Both preparations yielded supraphysiological testosterone levels in serum and saliva as early as 2 h following injection, reaching peak levels 4 to 5 times above basal between 8 and 24 h. LH and FSH levels were suppressed as long as serum testosterone levels were elevated. Nine days after injecting testosterone enanthate and 7 days after giving testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, serum and salivary levels of testosterone had returned to basal. The longer activity of testosterone enanthate was also evidenced from more extended suppression of gonadotrophin levels. Although neither preparation is ideal because of the initial supraphysiological peaks, testosterone enanthate appears preferable for clinical use because of its slightly longer duration of action.

Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate as assessed by serum and salivary testosterone levels in normal men

Th. Schürmeyer <SUP><NOBR>1</NOBR></SUP> E. Nieschlag <SUP><NOBR>1</NOBR></SUP> <SUP><NOBR>,</NOBR></SUP> <SUP><NOBR>2</NOBR></SUP> <SUP><NOBR>1</NOBR></SUP> Max Planck Clinical Research Unit for Reproductive Medicine at the University Women's Hospital, 4400 Münster, FRG

 

[TRTnooby]

I thought I felt great the first week, and I did, but its nothing compared to how I feel now 8 weeks in.

 

[Billegitimate]

I thought I felt great the first week, and I did, but its nothing compared to how I feel now 8 weeks in.

Sure! There are many things that happen long term with higher androgen levels that aren't felt immediately. There's a great set of circular graphs somewhere that shows the time for full effect on different measurements. Can't remember where they are, but I bet someone will chime in.

There are also immediate effects that can be felt, which is what this discussion really got started on. One of them is strength. The same person will be slightly stronger immediately with higher serum T just due to the action on muscle recruitment.

Happy to hear you're doing so well! I still have the occasional lull where libido drops and I don't feel quite on point, but I've never figured those out. And I track a lot of variables! The gal at the local Labcorp and I are on a first name basis, and privatemdlabs and lef.org must think I'm trying to drain all the blood out of my body. . Bloodwork frequency is now tapering off, but I'm finally pretty happy with things. A doc would have never gone to the lengths I have to nail this down.

 

[Billegitimate]

Ah, replying to my own post now. Here is the paper discussing longer term TRT effects. Great read.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

 

[Billegitimate]

Ah, replying to my own post now. Here is the paper discussing longer term TRT effects. Great read.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

 

[methos0123]

Do you still have a copy of your blood work? I'd like to see some other numbers on there before I comment. (I haven't forgotten about putting up sources and more info - just have to take care of an exam this morning first. )

I have found it. I am having problems downloading the software on my laptop to scan right now. What would you like to see, and I'll post it. I ran a shotgun of everything...just about everything that we have in chemistry. Also have cbc.

 

[Havasu]

I wouldn't say it's placebo. While the full effects of test may not be felt until 3-6 weeks initially, I believe the test level WILL start going up sooner than that. Now just because your level is up, doesn't mean you will reap every benefit right away, but test begins to peak at 48 hours. It has to be on it's way up 24 hours later. For example I was on 100mg of test per week. Waited about 6 weeks, and my test levels came back at around 600 at trough. I bumped up my dose to 140mg. The following week I had labs done. My test came back at about 850 at trough. So, while your levels, and effect of those levels may not be completely "developed" for 3-6 weeks after dose change, it IS effecting your test levels in the short term.

 

[TRTnooby]

Ah, replying to my own post now. Here is the paper discussing longer term TRT effects. Great read.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

I've read that study actually, its good to look at for me since I have so much to look forward to. I don't know if you could call it a lull in my libido, since I can't remember a day that I didn't want to have sex, but there are some days where I won't bother to initiate, I wouldn't say no if the wife wanted it though. There are other days though where I REALLY want to have sex, and if she's not down I'm frustrated. That usually happens if its 24-48 Hours since my last pin, and 2 or more days since the last time we had sex. Luckily I have Rosie Palmer and her 5 sisters to hold me over.

One thing I really like about being on TRT is that I'm much more able to let things go that I would have been angry about in the past. That started about 2-3 weeks ago. Hopefully it continues.

 

[halfwit]

My gosh, I love it when people can have a discussion in which they don't have the same position yet everything is focused on the facts, rather than getting nasty. There, I loved on ya Halfwit! Uh...in a friendly way.

Back to your previous post, I do understand it takes weeks to get stable levels. Plugging all this into a spreadsheet really helps make that obvious. What's funny, is I have every shot I've ever taken (hcg, Test) in a spreadsheet, every blood test result in that same spreadsheet, every dose of anastrazole. Some say to-may-to, some say to-maw-to...and some say OCD, I say analytical.

Since there is disagreement on the half-life (and I would think the actual operational half-life varies person to person, and varies within that person dependent on several things) I have that value in a cell that is then used in the rest of my formula.

When I switched from t-cyp to t-prop, I added another value for half life and another column for t-prop injections. Both the cyp and prop have a daily decay rate, as well as separate ester weights. All of which combines for a value in the column that is labeled "daily aborbed T". When I stopped my t-cyp injections, I used the spreadsheet to calculate t-prop injections that would increase over time to keep my T levels the same. At the 4 week point, almost all the t-cyp was absorbed, and I was then using t-prop injections that predicted the same amount of absorbed T as the t-cyp previously.

Blood tests before the change from t-cyp showed total T of 1123 and blood tests at the 4 week point showed total T of 1170. Close enough.

None of that is meant to contradict your statement that serum levels can be predicted from the half life, or from the shot amount. But the residual amounts from previous injections can be tracked over time with the half life taken into account, and the amount of T absorbed predicted based on that.

As to why the peak occurs around 48 hours later, I would assume the peak occurs as a function of absorption and clearance rates. Perhaps for the doses we're using that peak is around 48 hours from injection. Makes sense.

But I still believe the T absorbed from the very first shot is going to follow a half-life absorption curve just like all the T injected. If it doesn't, then why does the absorption rate change over time? If it does, then the T that goes into the blood in the first 24 hours from 100 mg is probably (removing ester) between 3 and 5 mg. Compare that to what a healthy male produces, and for someone with very low levels I think that will be felt.

Oh yeah, I always love an intellectual debate. I actually enjoy being proven wrong as it means I still have much to learn.

Okay, my points that I was unable to get to on my phone:

Timeline of response to therapy after testosterone replacement

The clinical response to testosterone supplement is variable. Generally, it takes 4–12 weeks to restore the serum testosterone concentration to physiological range, depending on the initial concentration of the hormone as well as the type of formulation used. Serum testosterone is usually measured to monitor response to therapy and achievement of a eugonadal state (generally considered to be reflected by a serum testosterone concentration between 400 and 700 ng).58 However, a recent study has suggested that it may sometimes be inaccurate because of abnormal fluctuation of other circulating androgens.(75) Improvement in sexual desire and function as well as mood and energy occurs early in the course of treatment, approximately within 3–6 weeks.(76–78)

One can begin to see improved muscle mass and strength, reduced adiposity, and an increasing hematocrit within 3 months which reaches its maximum at around 12 months.(77) The lipid profile begins to improve in 3–4 months, with maximum effect attained in 12 months for total cholesterol and 22 months for triglyceride, high density lipoprotein, and low density lipoprotein. A decline in fasting blood glucose and HbA1c may be observed after 3 months with further decrease after 12 months.(79–82) Effects of testosterone on bone mineral density take longer to appear. It may take 6 months to see the initial effect and may take 36 months or longer to reach the maximum benefit.(26,64,83,84) Patients with metabolic syndrome experience maximum benefit in waist circumference, fasting blood glucose, and blood pressure within 12 months.(79,85) It is important to monitor blood glucose concentrations in diabetic patients and titrate down anti-diabetic medications if necessary, as TRT improves glycemic control and may precipitate hypoglycemia.

Source - (They list each one in parenthesis)

I sound all smart again, right? Then I find this gem that conflicts with some of the data above:

I normally would have discounted it, but it is from the Endocrine Association, so I kind of have to take it seriously.

Source

Ahh, but of course we find another conflicting tidbit here:

Results:

Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 3–4 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 3–6 weeks with a maximum after 18–30 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 9–12 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 6–12 months. Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 3–12 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12–16 weeks, stabilize at 6–12 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 3–12 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.
Source

So while I have LOTS of articles showing how it takes a very long time (well, it feels like a long time for us when hypogonadal), there are always a plethora of articles contradicting them. I honestly believe this makes it difficult at best to present a strong case in either direction as the experts themselves can't seem to agree. Even worse, I keep finding OLD references regarding topics such as prostate cancer (proven to be E2 related), improper dosing schedules (4 weeks for 200mg, really?!) and other tidbits left over from the era where the medical community decided that AAS does nothing but make one angry.

So, I guess I'm going to have to call this one a draw. I cannot disprove (I really thought I could until I used non-biased search parameters to be fair) nor prove the exact time-frame in which TRT can impact a hypogonadal male. I do still believe a LARGE portion (I went through it too!) of the initial benefits are largely placebo, but must concede that there is the possibility for drug action kinetics.

I have found it. I am having problems downloading the software on my laptop to scan right now. What would you like to see, and I'll post it. I ran a shotgun of everything...just about everything that we have in chemistry. Also have cbc.

I would like to know your LH/FSH values and TSH if you have it. I'm curious if another theory I read about is true or not. As I don't know many that pulled a blood test literally right after starting TRT - this is a unique opportunity for me to see if I can learn something or not.