when HCG

[eagle_lex]

ok now im confused. i have been reading and it seems that some suggest Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during the cycle. i thought (and was planning to use) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) was for the end of the cycle before the Clomid or Nolvadex. so what gives? i was planning on running my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at one shot a day for about 20 days and then hitting the Anti Es before jumping into more test. thanks!

 

[BUFFDAWG10]

It is used for both. If you are going to do a short cycle lets say 6-8 weeks you can do the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle. If you plan on doing a long cycle, 12-16 weeks or longer, it is a good idea to run some Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mid cycle & post cycle just to keep the boys running normal.

 

[Juice Authority]

Some people find that they get their best strength and size gains while using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in conjunction with the AS. This may be due to the fact that the body has high level of natural androgens as well as the artificial steroid hormones at that time.

I've recently learned that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) does not stimulate natural test production, it only gives a false signal of LH to the testicles to produce test. Once the signal is gone, so is the production and that taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle will only prolong recovery and suppress your HPTA even more!

 

[eagle_lex]

Juice,
so what is the answer? i assume that you would only use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during the cycle. but what are you doing to recover?? i am currently approaching the end of a 12 weeker. the only thing that i am using is Cypionate at 350mg every 4 days. i have the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on hand along with nolva to help with post cycle. i have noticed some atrophy so i was hoping that the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) would help as far as that is concerned, and i assume that it still will, however,

what about my next cycle? i will definatly use a long cycle like 12 to 20 weeks and again i will only be using Cypionate. do i get some more Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and use it during the cycle. if so at what dose???

thanks again, you guys are the best!

 

[Juice Authority]

I would start the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) now before your cycle is done. Post Cycle use clomid. You can buy Liquid Clomid from www.researchkits.com.

Clomid, you need 36 tabs worth, or 306ml of 50mg/ml stuffs.

300mg day 1, 100mg next 10, 50mg next 10

PS It tastes likes shit but it's a necessary evil.

 

[Juice Authority]

I would also suggest running Nolvadex to prevent the effects of estrogen in the body. Since you're running 700mg's of CYP Nolva might be needed since your estrogen levels will be pretty high due to aromatizing affect of CYP. It can aid in preventing edema, gyno, and female pattern fat distribution, all of which might occur when your estrogen levels are too high.

To prevent estrogenic side effects normally 10 mg/day are sufficient, a dosage which also keeps low the risk of reducing the effect of simultaneously-taken AS. Nolva does NOT inhibit gains. Arimidex, it is an anti-e. It stops aromatation. Problem is, it will mess up your cholesterol levels.

Arimidex = To Prevent Estrogen Creation

Nolvadex = To Stop Estrogen from Binding

Always start with Arimidex, but have nolvadex on hand.

Nolvadex can and will act as a psuedo-estrogen. Arimidex will keep your aromatose activity down to a minimum. Nolva can take the place for estrogenic activities for cholesterol. Which is good!

 

[eagle_lex]

ok guys i combined the two vials for the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) today and put it in the fridge. there seems to be alot of different opinions on dosage. i have one 10ml vial. is .5cc every day good? what do you guys suggest? thanks! i will be continuing the cyp while doing the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) also. i have about 3.5 weeks of cyp left. thanks again!

 

[DrJMW]

Here is the standard recovery cycle I recommend my clients. It is based on established standards used by Endocrinologists. Beginning the last week of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) use or a week later (depending on convenience), use 2,000U of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), IM, three times weekly, for a total of three weeks. At the same time, use 20mg Nolvadex daily, for a total of six weeks. Clomid is added--50mg daily for a total of six weeks--if you have been shut down for a long time. Bill Llewellyn summarizes the rationale pretty well.

Originally posted by w_llewellyn


Tamoxifen does NOT suppress LH and T! Keep looking and you will find human studies clearly showing this, and in fact its superiority over Clomid in stimulating both. I'm thinking of putting together a comprehensive article on this, so you guys understand how Clomid and Nolvadx work, and their differences, a little better. Plus, if any SERM has estrogenic effects in the AP it is Clomid, not Nolvadex, which is why I prefer tamoxifen (it is a technical advantage, not a big one in the real world though)..

ANd I say again, fostering a little extra LH post cycle with CLomid, Nolvadex or Arimidex doesn't do a whole hell of alot. The brain increases LH rapidly post-cycle anyway, the testes just don't respond to it well because they have lost mass. THis is why we need Bolus LH (HCG) plus an anti-estrogen.

Originally posted by w_llewellyn

I have tried Clomid alone a few times, years ago, but typically used Nolvadex and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I have always found it to work very well for me. As for Arimidex, no, I have not tried to use this in a post-cycle recovery program. Years ago I had a scare with EXTREMELY messed up cholesterol (all LDL, almost no HDL), and since have stayed away from aromatase inhibitors altogether. Consider this though:

Both Clomid, which mind you I have always contended works as a T stimulating drug just like Nolvadex (just technically not as good), and Arimidex counter HPTA suppression by blocking the negative feedback caused by estrogens. They support LH release obviously.

Now post cycle it has clearly been shown that LH levels rebound quickly, while T levels are much slower to return to normal. Why? The reason is that the testes, after a period of inactivity, have lost mass and are not able to respond as well to LH in terms of T output. If your recovery program only focuses on LH support it is missing the more important problem, testicular mass. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), as you know, can provide an additional bolus dose of LH. It can essentially help shock them back into shape, whereas it will take many weeks relying on heightened endogenous LH alone.

 

[eagle_lex]

DrJmw,
you have mail. thanks again!

 

[Juice Authority]

There are always studies that contradict other studies...Interesting...

Using HCG
It is our opinion that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) does not restore the natural testosterone production.

The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.

From the above discussion it is clear that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

Summary and Price of Clomid and HCG
Clomid is more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle, but some long-term users like to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid therapy.


__________________
Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
____________________
directions
Add the water to powder with the water given bro. After combining you need to refrigerate and it is good for about a month.

A 10,000iu kit comes with 1cc (or ml.) of sterile water. Once you reconstitute, 10ius on an insulin point equals 1000ius and done 10iu points (slin pin).
If no vial to put in pre-load slin pins and refrigerate.

Reconstitute is when you combine water and powder in one.


The the powder will just dissolve when the water is mixed via syringe instantly..it should be the active powder.

10ius on an insulin point equals 1000ius in typical Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) kit.....

The IU units are on the pin and its translates in terms of slin iu points as follows for typical 10,000iu kit:

a 10,000 iu kit if taken 5iu a day for 20 days=10,000..

 

[Juice Authority]

ok now im confused. i have been reading and it seems that some suggest Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during the cycle. i thought (and was planning to use) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) was for the end of the cycle before the Clomid or Nolvadex. so what gives? i was planning on running my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at one shot a day for about 20 days and then hitting the Anti Es before jumping into more test. thanks!

You have a lot of info to go on. My suggestion is to PM Lawnsaver. He's a MOD here and is very knowledgeable about this particular topic. When I have anti-e related questions I go to him.

 

[DrJMW]

If you noticed, I have modified the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post-cycle from the traditional 2,000 to 5,000 every four days, for 45 days routine. I recommend completing the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) dosing in three weeks--this avoids inhibition. At the same time, the Nolvadex is acting as an antiestrogen and as a stimulant of the pituitary to produce its own LH. The first three weeks is to increase testicular mass, the last three weeks is to restore the HPTA.

I have had too much success with my routine to change it. I am intrigued by the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during a cycle and my info does not contradict it. It may be better to run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during a long, heavy cycle..rather than trying the HCG/Nolvadex/Clomid during recovery. In any case, many endocrinologists have been successful in restoring natural Testos levels in athletes who have completed long and heavy cycle with severe shutdown.

 

[Juice Authority]

If you noticed, I have modified the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post-cycle from the traditional 2,000 to 5,000 every four days, for 45 days routine

Why 45 days? That's the longest I've heard. What's the reasoning behind that?

 

[XXX]

BUMP, I need to keep my eye on this one. It's getting good.

 

[Juice Authority]

BUMP, I need to keep my eye on this one. It's getting good.

Each AS user seems to have a different opinion on when to start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) treatment, how much to use, how often and for how long. There also seems to be varying opinions and supporting research on what Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is used for. I think we all can agree that its most common application is for atrophy.

As far as the stimulation of one's natural testosterone goes, I wish the vets and mods here and on other boards would all agree on a common opinion. I'm more confused and educated on this topic now than I ever was!

 

[eagle_lex]

me too! feel my pain baby!

 

[Raoul3]

Do you have any idea what could be Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) detection time in a urine test (if at all) ?? (clomid's or nolva's also btw??)
I know for a fact it's on some athletic federations banned lists.

 

[Juice Authority]

So is Norandro for that matter.

 

[bronco944]

def check with lawnsaver on this one. im using his idea in my upcoming cycle. 500 iu's every sat and sun through out the cycle with clomid after.