K
Kane_Red_Machine
Guest
howmush time between those pix mein freund?
Before & After
- Thread starter Some01Better
- Start date
Some01Better
Scout
6 weeks
Some01Better
Scout
they are big but not really that defined, just bulky. I have ripped the ass out 5 pairs of new jeans in the last 3 weeks. *sigh*
hogman
New member
Thats quiet a stack for a beginner! you def got some good results so far.
PCT will be really impotrant to keep your gains. make sure you do lots of reserch.
lookin good!
Some01Better
Scout
I agree after much research! Like I said though, I had someone HUGE influencing me.
I got Clomid, and Nolva, and thistle. If you have any suggestions for post cycle therapy (pct) I would absolutely appreciate it.
Thanks!
numba1scrapper
Beast in training
you should probably do some more research, Milk thistle is of course good for the liver, but kills lots of your gains.
Some01Better
Scout
Ok, thanks. Do you have a good site or book I can reference?
leanbody
man on a mission
Hey man;
I would def look at primordial performance's post cycle therapy (pct). (http://www dot primordialperformance dot com/store/Testosterone_Recovery_Stack.html) It's a 3 part stack that hits different parts of the body. I personally did not have a great experience with Clomid - the nolva was okay. The milk thistle is good liver support - another product i would try is Liv 5.2 pills - has a great reputaion. Don't get the liquid - tastes nasty. The liver support you really only need with orals, though.
Nice job ripping the ass out of your jeans, too, HULK!
new edit: another reference I saved - I don't recall where I cut it from, but it made sense to me:
"I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive."
Last edited:
leanbody
man on a mission
Hey man;
This is the last bit o PCT info I have to offer. I was interested in Toremifene for pct after I had problems with clomid and i found this article:
You're choice of toremifene for pct sparked my interest because i havent really heard of anything other than the basic clomid/nolva/hcg/ect.. so i did some research, and found this article. I thought I'd post it for any others reading this thread and were curious on what it was, especially since it worked so well for you. Great journal btw, well done!
Fareston
Chemical Name: Toremifene Citrate
Drug Class: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator
Fareston is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM), not unlike its more popular cousins Nolvadex and Clomid. Just as we see with Nolvadex, Fareston is used to treat breast cancer in post-menopausal women. It does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissue, most notably, breast tissue. This is actually the same mechanism of action found in Nolvadex. This is why Nolvadex is often recommended to bodybuilders who are trying to avoid gynocomastia (growth of breast tissue in males). SERMs, in addition, have several other well known effects in men, which are not simply limited to preventing the abnormal growth of breast tissue.
At the hypothalamus and pituitary, estrogen acts in cooperation with the male body’s negative feedback loop to send a signal to decrease the secretion of LH, and when LH secretion is lowered, so are natural testosterone levels. SERMs, like Fareston, possibly act as an estrogen antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, in order to increase testosterone production. Thus, although it hasn’t been studied to any great degree, it’s highly likely that Fareston is capable of increasing testosterone in the same way that Nolvadex it, as it’s androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio is 5x that of Nolvadex(1). It may also be better than Nolvadex for reasons that are of particular interest to steroid using athletes and bodybuilders.
Fareston differs from Nolvadex in several ways, however- even though it’s very similar to it in others. Firstly, the risk of certain side effects (although relatively rare with Nolvadex) is actually quite a bit lower with Fareston.However unlikely these risks are in the first place, the risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and cataract is probably lower with Fareston than with Nolvadex. This is going to be of interest to people who have issues with “floaters” in their vision, which is sometimes caused by Nolvadex and Clomid, as this product may represent significantly less occular toxicity. It also differs slightly from Nolvadex in its potent with regards to improving lipid (cholesterol) profiles. In terms of improving bone mineral density, Fareston is roughly equal to Nolvadex.(2)
Although anecdotal evidence on this compound is rare, bodybuilders who have already experimented with this stuff seem satisfied. In my estimation, it would seem to be a more potent and safer alternative to Nolvadex, for those who are worried about side effects. I’m also predicting that it may provide a greater increase in LH and therefore testosterone levels, in men when compared to Nolvadex (when an appropriate dose of each is utilized). This makes its use a strong possibility for PCT in the future, when studies on its ability to elevate testosterone is more fully studied and understood.
Fareston would also make a welcome addition to a cycle where Cholesterol issues may be a concern, or where something slightly stronger than Nolvadex may be required to prevent gyno.
This is the last bit o PCT info I have to offer. I was interested in Toremifene for pct after I had problems with clomid and i found this article:
You're choice of toremifene for pct sparked my interest because i havent really heard of anything other than the basic clomid/nolva/hcg/ect.. so i did some research, and found this article. I thought I'd post it for any others reading this thread and were curious on what it was, especially since it worked so well for you. Great journal btw, well done!
Fareston
Chemical Name: Toremifene Citrate
Drug Class: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator
Fareston is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM), not unlike its more popular cousins Nolvadex and Clomid. Just as we see with Nolvadex, Fareston is used to treat breast cancer in post-menopausal women. It does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissue, most notably, breast tissue. This is actually the same mechanism of action found in Nolvadex. This is why Nolvadex is often recommended to bodybuilders who are trying to avoid gynocomastia (growth of breast tissue in males). SERMs, in addition, have several other well known effects in men, which are not simply limited to preventing the abnormal growth of breast tissue.
At the hypothalamus and pituitary, estrogen acts in cooperation with the male body’s negative feedback loop to send a signal to decrease the secretion of LH, and when LH secretion is lowered, so are natural testosterone levels. SERMs, like Fareston, possibly act as an estrogen antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, in order to increase testosterone production. Thus, although it hasn’t been studied to any great degree, it’s highly likely that Fareston is capable of increasing testosterone in the same way that Nolvadex it, as it’s androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio is 5x that of Nolvadex(1). It may also be better than Nolvadex for reasons that are of particular interest to steroid using athletes and bodybuilders.
Fareston differs from Nolvadex in several ways, however- even though it’s very similar to it in others. Firstly, the risk of certain side effects (although relatively rare with Nolvadex) is actually quite a bit lower with Fareston.However unlikely these risks are in the first place, the risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and cataract is probably lower with Fareston than with Nolvadex. This is going to be of interest to people who have issues with “floaters” in their vision, which is sometimes caused by Nolvadex and Clomid, as this product may represent significantly less occular toxicity. It also differs slightly from Nolvadex in its potent with regards to improving lipid (cholesterol) profiles. In terms of improving bone mineral density, Fareston is roughly equal to Nolvadex.(2)
Although anecdotal evidence on this compound is rare, bodybuilders who have already experimented with this stuff seem satisfied. In my estimation, it would seem to be a more potent and safer alternative to Nolvadex, for those who are worried about side effects. I’m also predicting that it may provide a greater increase in LH and therefore testosterone levels, in men when compared to Nolvadex (when an appropriate dose of each is utilized). This makes its use a strong possibility for PCT in the future, when studies on its ability to elevate testosterone is more fully studied and understood.
Fareston would also make a welcome addition to a cycle where Cholesterol issues may be a concern, or where something slightly stronger than Nolvadex may be required to prevent gyno.
To give an answer. Ofcourse you cant expect results on thickness if youre only doing for width. I am looking from a competitive point of view and then the "loafs" have to be a lot better.
Saying you dont need to focus on thikness is like saying you dont need to do calves as you "activate" them to a slight degree when doing squats.
Saying you dont need to focus on thikness is like saying you dont need to do calves as you "activate" them to a slight degree when doing squats.
leanbody
man on a mission
Good point Bast - well taken. Calves may not be the best example cause for many they won't grow without special attention. i am an older dude and I have found that i gained "thickness" just by aging - the width is something that i did NOT concentrate on when I was young and I regret it. i think If I had added width in my 20's I'd still have that and the thickness too. Depends on genetics too - I am from a lineage of tall square straight guys - not V shaped.
Some01Better
Scout
This is why I love this site. Ask and ye shall recieve. Thanks once again Lean.
trophytaker
been there,done that!
inlightin me on how milkthitstle kills your gains,thats new to me..
Some01Better
Scout
I couldn't find anything to support this but perhaps my research is lacking...
B
Biggin
Guest
It is lacking a little, Milk Thistle doesn't have any effect on gains. U look good though. Ur hard work shows.
numba1scrapper
Beast in training
For years steroid users have been taking Milk Thistle (Silybum marianum, which contains the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin and the active component silibinin) to protect their livers from potentially hepatoxic oral steroids. In the Anabolics series of books, William Llewellyn talks about using this stuff as a liver protector. Well, he’s wrong…yeah, it’ll protect your liver, but it’s also going to reduce the effectiveness of the entire cycle, by reducing androgen receptor transactivation and also by inhibiting the IGF-I signaling pathway.
Less androgen receptor activity + less IGF-1 = less muscle and strength.
MuscleTech uses milk thistle in some of their products as does Universal (it’s in their Animal Pack and some others), as does Muscle Pharm and MHP (who stupidly included it in a product designed to boost testosterone). Anabolic Innovations includes Milk Thistle in a product called “Cycle Support“- so clearly this stuff is being marketed heavily towards steroid users. Llewellyn even includes it in his “Liver Stabil” product….but users will pretty quickly find out that it’s making them gain less muscle and strength.
In any case, I’ve never been a fan of this kind of thing, i.e. taking one thing to stop side effects from another…robbing Peter to pay Paul, or Ringo or whatever…. To my way of thinking, if your dose is too high, it’s too high, and adding another chemical into the mix (herbal or not), is not the solution. Sure, you can take a ton of steroids with liver protectors and anti-estrogens and all kinds of other stuff…but why wouldn’t you just cut the dose down and not take all the other crap?
Effects of SM and SB on whole cell AR levels (a), transcription activity of the AR promoter (b) and ligand-binding activity of the AR (c). The upper panel in (a) shows a representative western blot analysis of total AR protein levels in LNCaP cells and Ponceau S staining, representing protein loading. The lower panel in (a) is a densitometric analysis of total AR protein levels from three independent experiments.
We know that estrogen is necessary for optimal growth, so why would we mega-dose on steroids, but then take an anti-estrogen with them? Our gains will effectively be reduced in a similar way to simply taking a lower dose – which would obviously cost less (the savings from lowering the dose + not buying the anti-estrogen). Using a lower (non-side effect causing) dose seems to make more sense (or using non-aromatizing androgens). So why would we take a ton of (potentially toxic) oral steroids with a liver protector? What if I could make the case that taking a liver protector (*in this case, Milk Thistle) will actually cause your entire cycle to be less effective?
I’ve been doing some research into Milk Thistle recently, because it’s the most commonly used liver protector for steroid users. It’s sold at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, etc…and it not only works to protect the liver, it’s also pretty cheap. For years, mediocre supplement designers have been slamming this stuff into any formula that could be liver toxic, and then forgetting about it. It’s a no-brainer (literally). People just cram the stuff in their supplements without doing any real research.
The problem with Milk Thistle is that it inhibits certain functions within your androgen receptors, thereby making the steroids (androgens) you’re taking less effective – this is why it has been studied as a possible chemoprotective agent for androgen dependent cancers. The active component in Milk Thistle effectively reduces nuclear androgen receptor levels (click for the full study), and down-regulates several androgen-regulated genes primarily by inhibiting the transactivation activity of the AR, and can also inhibit nuclear localization of the androgen receptor. Admittedly this study only looks at certain site-specific androgen receptor cells, in certain situations, but I see no reason in the available data to think these effects wouldn’t be the case elsewhere.
I’ve also looked at several related studies, and I think that this stuff simply isn’t the best choice for liver protection. I’m not saying “don’t ever protect your liver with a supplement” – I’m saying find something other than Milk Thistle, ok? And lower the f*cking dose, or don’t use orals (like me) if you think you’re going to damage your liver. With the available information on Milk Thistle, why continue using the stuff? Certainly we know there are other things that protect the liver, and if we have reliable evidence that strongly suggests against Milk Thistle being ideal, then we shouldn’t be using it. Again, I’m not saying “don’t ever use anything to protect your liver” – I’m just arguing against this one product because I think it’s less than ideal for steroid users.
In fact, there is additional information available that strongly suggests that Milk Thistle will also have an inhibitory effect on the insulin-like growth factor I receptor-mediated signaling pathway. All in all, there seems to be a reasonable expectation that this stuff is anti-anabolic. Lowering IGF-1 is important for treating cancer, which makes Milk Thistle a promising compound in that field.
Uncle Chop-Chop
Nobody is right all of the time, and I’ve probably thought this stuff was a good idea in the past, and even recommended it (like Llewellyn and a lot of other people), but the truth is that Milk Thistle looks like an extremely bad idea for use on a cycle – at least if you want your cycle to be as effective as possible. I know that these studies aren’t perfect (i.e. they don’t examine healthy, weight training individuals, using steroids, etc…), but I’m still reasonably confidant that Milk Thistle will inhibit your gains from a cycle, and that’s the bottom line. I don’t know how much. Maybe a little. Maybe a lot. Either way there’s better choices out there, and no, I don’t sell a liver-support product, and no I don’t have a vested interest in bashing Milk Thistle…nor am I saying not to protect your liver (because if your liver gets destroyed, you’ll die). I’m just saying that this shouldn’t be your first choice (or any choice, really).
I wonder how many of these guys will be reformulating their products now?
Milk Thistle – good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors | Anthony Roberts
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