Best post cycle therapy (pct) for my cycle........

[TxLonghorn]

One must NEVER use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if they are not using a lot of aromatisable AAS. It would be ridicuously bad for your health to do so. As far as adding in a SERM under the same circumstances, I suppose there is no real danger from same, and there may actually be some benefit. But for those who willy-nilly add in anti-E when they are already not producing enough estrogen because their HPTA is suppressed by the cycle, that is a different matter.

There is some evidence that some Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) may have progesterone-like affects, and thus may induce gyno while operating in an environment of estrogen. I think the jury is still out on that one at this time, though.

So what would you advise to the guy who is several months off cycle and starts to get what we call the 'estrogen rebound' and starts developing gyno? Would you recommend nolva? Would letro, anastrozole, or exemestane work as well?

I still think we are quite a ways from figuring out how to do post cycle therapy (pct) correctly. Over at animal's board they seem to be discussing different ways of doing it, with how much success I don't know. But it has to at least help a few people out if they keep talking about it. His method uses no Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), clomid in the middle, and clomid/arimidex at the end. Very interesting, imo.

And does anybody have any kind of guess as to why this estrogen rebound occurs at all? It seems to come after the hormone levels have normalized.

 

[trip643dp9]

Duration is of very little influence where suppression is concerned. Once the HPTA is supprerssed, that is it. And it seems to make no difference how long the HPTA is supressed, if post cycle therapy (pct) is done correctly, then it regains form and fnction (in MOST cases--I do have quite a few patients who are former Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) users who then became hypogonadotrophic). Of course, appropriate post cycle therapy (pct) requires the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), unless one wants to dramatically extend the time required for same, as testicular function is clearly the rate-limiting step in the process.

So what is this saying exacly? Does it mean that once HPTA is supressed it never comes back on its own?? Does it mean you will never be able to have kids or what? I'm a little confused with that...my cycle is only for 5 wks. w/150mg prop EOD and primo 100mg EOD. If my HPTA is supressed will it ever come back w/out the use of some kind of post cycle therapy (pct)?

 

[SweetLeaf]

No, it will come back. Lots of people have never done post cycle therapy (pct) and recovered just fine. If your nuts are the size of raisins, you will need some therapy because they won't be able to respond on their own.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

No, it will come back. Lots of people have never done post cycle therapy (pct) and recovered just fine. If your nuts are the size of raisins, you will need some therapy because they won't be able to respond on their own.

Even if your testicles have atrophied, they will come back along with your HPTA. It just takes a long time. In this time you body will lose the hard earned muscle, as you have no test in your system


post cycle therapy (pct) is a way to restart your HPTA faster so you wont crash and lose you muscle. Your HPTA will restart without it, but why wait if there are drugs AND SUPPLEMENTS out there to help you return to normal faster?

 

[DADAWG]

Even if your testicles have atrophied, they will come back along with your HPTA. It just takes a long time. In this time you body will lose the hard earned muscle, as you have no test in your system


PCT is a way to restart your HPTA faster so you wont crash and lose you muscle. Your HPTA will restart without it, but why wait if there are drugs AND SUPPLEMENTS out there to help you return to normal faster?

agreed , why spend a fortune on a cycle kill yourself in the gym and then scrimp on post cycle therapy and lose a lot more of your gains than are necessary , even a dumb ol powerlifter like me can figure that out

 

[trip643dp9]

thanks...yeah losing all that muscle you put on would definitely be a waste of money. I was just worried that the HPTA doesn't come back! I was scared for a second there, but I see now. Ok...I think its down to 2 now either clomid or N'dex...which one for my particualar cycle? I know people are different, but I think I would concur with the masses on this one.

 

[trip643dp9]

Oh yeah one more question also...post cycle therapy (pct) (Post Cycle Therapy) by name should be done after the cycle correct? What is the deal with doing your post cycle therapy (pct) in the beginning and during your cycle? It seems like it contradicts itself a little and should be labeled MCT (Mid Cycle Therapy) or BCT (Beginning Cycle Therapy) instead of post cycle therapy (pct). Just thought I'd throw a couple pennies on that one.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

HCG isnt a post cycle therapy (pct). It is something completely different.

Clomid and N-dex are basically the same thing. Clomid has a reputation of making the user moody and emotional when taking it post cycle. N-dex doesnt have that effect. Its just preference. Clomid action on the HPTA are a little bit more pronouced, but again everyone is different.

So then, which ever one is easier to get.

 

[SWALE]

Slicli--I practice in Lansing, MI. My first report, entitled "My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for Men--A Recipe for Success" is being released by the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicne next week at its Annual International Convention.

IMPO, NO post cycle therapy (pct) is correct without HCG. Anyone who says otherwise simply does not know what they are doing--or haven't learned how to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) properly (usually the case, because they then get bad results).

TxLonghorn--In that case, I would have to run some labwork and get a thorough Medical History before deciding what to do for the patient.

The mid-cycle "Clomid burst" is a waste of time and money. This is a Stone Age idea which does not carry its weight when you really look at it.

AI's should be used along the way, to combat elevated estrogen levels. At the end, all you do is further damage the patient's health.

Trip--Some Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) users induce acquired hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism which does not revert. By and large, most recover on their own, in time. The question is how long do you want to wait, and how much of your gains do you want to lose?

LS--there is a huge difference betwen a SERM (such as Nolvadex and Clomid) and an Aromatase Inhibitor (Ari, Letrozole, etc.). The first blocks E at some receptors, but acts as E at others. The latter class reduces conversion of T to E in the first place. This is a very important distinction. Also, a SERM will never damage your Lipid Profile. AI's do it every time when they are improperly used.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

Quoted From Swale:
LS--there is a huge difference betwen a SERM (such as Nolvadex and Clomid) and an Aromatase Inhibitor (Ari, Letrozole, etc.). The first blocks E at some receptors, but acts as E at others. The latter class reduces conversion of T to E in the first place. This is a very important distinction. Also, a SERM will never damage your Lipid Profile. AI's do it every time when they are improperly used.

I know...I dont remember asking or commenting on the difference?

Also, I dont consinder Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) a post cycle therapy (pct) drug as we dont recomend it Post cycle.

I am fully aware of the need for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), as I learned it from you...LOL

 

[SweetLeaf]

Good info Swale, but should one use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) if they have no atrophy?

 

[LAWNSAVER]

Yes, that is one of the main points! Prevent it by taking small doses throughout the cycle.

Why wait until something is broke to fix it...Prevent it in the first place.

 

[SWALE]

LS--Perhaps you didn't mean to write it as so, but you said "Clomid and N-dex are basically the same thing". I felt I should address the profound differences between the two classes of drugs.

Your point about Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) not being a post cycle therapy (pct) drug is well taken, as it is far better to use it all along the way so the boyz will be there when you need them again at the end. I guess I have just lumped it in with the entire protocol, as one should be thinking of, and preparing for, every stage of their cycle in advance.

But no, I do not want guys to use it after their cycle is over. UNLESS they did not use it along the way, and now they must play the balancing act of trying to get their testes up to par while simultaneously trying to recover their HPTA. They end up then extending their post cycle therapy (pct), to account for the time when the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) was suppressing their HPTA, and spending more on drugs along the way.

 

[StoneColdNTO]

LS--Perhaps you didn't mean to write it as so, but you said "Clomid and N-dex are basically the same thing". I felt I should address the profound differences between the two classes of drugs.

OK.....now I am confused. I thought Clomid and Nolvadex (N-dex) were basically the same thing. Maybe you misunderstood when LS said N-dex, you took it as Arimidex, not Nolvadex ???

 

[slicli]

Ive been kickin around the idea of not comming off just bumping down to Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) levels every now and then. Any thoughts on that? Any negatives?

 

[lustig]

Taking advantage of this topic, there will be any effect if you run the post cycle therapy (pct) 2 months after the cycle?

 

[SWALE]

Yes, that was my mistake. I was thinking of Arimidex. My apologies to all.

 

[DADAWG]

Yes, that was my mistake. I was thinking of Arimidex. My apologies to all.

props doc for admitting a mistake , some internet gurus would never admit they were wrong

 

[SWALE]

Well, I'm hoping it gets it behind me quicker!

 

[Nelson Montana]

On further reading it appears SWALE and I are are pretty much in agreement. I guess my main point is that too many people use a shotgun approacj to post cycle therapy (pct) thinking it's the "safe" thing to do and wind up using too much, too long, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons or the wrong things altogether.

I think he biggest argument is in the fact that Clomid being an agonist, it just doesn't work well in many cases. It's just too "chancy." Other drugs are better and supplements are safer and a combination of the two is probably the best way to go in many cases.