Confused about Pct, Please help!!!

portmax29

New member
I am now more confused than ever about post cycle therapy (pct). Im looking into building my 3rd cycle which was going to be test/tren cycle. I read that i should take Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), and clomi/nolva for my post cycle therapy (pct). Then i go and do some research and come across someone saying clomid/nolva does nothing and should not be taken. So what is it, do i take clomid/nolva or something else?

Here is what i found, there is plenty more but ill just post a part of it. Sorry for the long read.


Forma-stanzol has both suicide aromatase inhibitors and natural selective estrogen receptor modulators in it. So yes you can replace the Clomid or nolva with Forma. It's deff the much better choice of post cycle therapy (pct) after a tren or deca cycle as nether Clomid nor Nolvadex will address High prolactin/ progesterone and in fact Nolvadex will up regulate the progesterone receptor.

Some good threads to read my friend.

Forma-stanzol explanation thread
What is the overall best? Best steroid, best post cycle therapy (pct), best gyno treatment

Ok now hold onto your seats boys I am about to drop a huge deuce on top of Nolvadex and Clomid forever "and once again prove what I have been saying all along" Read the following links and hold onto your jaws as you do so.

Nolvadex and Clomid "up regulate both estrogen and progesterone receptors!!!!" Thus not only making them not the best for post cycle therapy (pct) but dangerous to use before during and after a cycle period .

Studies for all to share with friends.
Up-regulation of estrogen receptors by nonsteroidal antiestrogens in human breast cancer. — NextBio article
Up-Regulation of Estrogen Receptors by Nonsteroidal Antiestrogens in Human Breast Cancer
incase you have not seen the studies. Yes nolva does up regulate the PR

OOO To bad so said for the 19th century drug pushers that has to suck big time. Non the less it is time to move on and the 21st century is finely going to come now! Yah!! On only needs to read the studies and threads I have posted so far to quickly find out Nolvadex and or Clomid are harmful maybe even deadly to your health but at best just plan old 19th century old now. The Ideas of the past.

Sorry nolva/Clomid lovers I am not don yet Nolvadex and Clomid impair muscle growth,reduced the plasma level of IGF-1,lower FSH, and even impair recovery!

And No they do not impair muscle growth because they lower estrogen as we have proven above. We can also put to rest the retarded notion that both estrogen and testosterone is needed to grow muscle at an accelerated rate? More 19th century crap.

Now my friends, Armed with the knowledge and prof from above that Nolvadex and or Clomid both raise blood level estrogen and both up regulate estrogen receptors and prolactin/progesterone receptors. Let as now Take the blade and follow through with it.

Higher blood levels of estrogen Lowers IGF reduce the size of muscle fibers and so does synthetic estrogens ie Nolvadex/Clomid
Estrogen agonists/antagonists may down-regula... [Med Hypotheses. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/86/6/2763.full.pdf
Growth hormone is produced within the hippocampus where it responds to age, sex, and stress
Tamoxifen interferes with the insulin-like growth... [Cancer Res. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI
Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor ... [Endocrinology. 1984] - PubMed - NCBI

Most people on the forums and in the chemical enhancement community just assume (through bro-ology as always) That Nolvadex and Clomid along with other drug like serms are nothing more then estrogen antagonist ( meaning they block estrogen from the estrogen receptor. This most basic and absolutely incorrect example of bro-ology has been regurgitated so many times it has simple become second nature for everyone to just assume this. Its as wrong as wrong can get my friend. They are not just estrogen antagonist. They are just as much estrogen agonist!!!!! In different tissue and parts of the body as they are antagonist.

Keep in mind these drugs have all been designed and created for 1 single purpose and that is to reduce and fight breast tumor growth/cancer grown in the breast tissue.

The impact of Tamoxifen or Clomid on IGF-1 is as follows, it simply demonstrates another synthetic estrogen action of Nolvadex/Clomid. By rendering the Liver less sensitive to growth hormone (probably by reducing the Liver density of GH receptors), estrogens and Tamoxifen diminish the production of IGF-1. This action of estrogens explains why women produce less IGF-1 than men even though the have a higher GH level. This is because they have higher levels of estrogen.

Contrary to what everyone has been repeating over and over for years Nolvadex and or Clomid is about the worst damn Idea for post cycle therapy (pct) that one could ever dream of taking. For the people who have recovered using it. I would venture to say you would have recovered just as well had you used nothing at all.

What about Clomid/nolvas Effect on the Thyroid? Can this effect post cycle therapy (pct)?


Thyroid binding globulin in tamoxifen patients [PharmGKB]
Thyroid function test changes with adjuvant tamoxifen therapy in postmenopausal women with breast cancer
Thyroid function test changes with adjuvant tam... [J Clin Oncol. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI
Thyroxine-binding globulin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Estrogen Dominance and Thyroid Issues

To put it simple They Lower the amount of Free Thyroid Level in the blood much like high levels of estrogen also do. They raise the level of Thyroid Binding Globulin (TBG)!!!

Every heard of Sex hormone binding globen? How this binds to free testosterone in the blood thus rendering it useless? Ok this is along the exact same lines. Thyroid Binding Globulin (TBG) Rendered Your T3 and T-4 Useless. WOW sounds like something I want for my post cycle therapy (pct) and on cycle us! NOT!!

But lets get into what kind of problems this can cause some one. I want all of you to sit and think about many of the common side effects and complaints you have heard people speak of when talking about their use of nolva/Clomid and Tell me if any lights go off in your head here.

First and foremost the thyroid is your fat burning gland. Without it's proper function your body can not burn, store, or process calories, fats, and even protein. Yes every here some one say a nice low does T3 can increase protein synthases? Well it can and likewise a sluggish thyroid or improperly functioning thyroid hormones can slow down protein synthases. The thyroid gland is the main metabolism gland in your body. As said previously, if your thyroid is not working correctly, you will have a difficult time losing weight. However, the thyroid does so much more than that. Every cell in the body has receptors for thyroid hormone. Every one of these receptors has a job to do and when on Clomid/nolva all of these jobs are impaired and or misfiring. Low thyroid hormone leads to elevated cholesterol and triglycerides. High levels of Thryriod binding globulin leads to poor digestive function because this significantly lowers the number of digestive enzymes in the intestines often leading to compounded fecal matter due to undigested foods as well as slowed muscle recovery do to down regulated nutrition retention. If food does not get broken down it can not be absorbed the intestinal wall. This can make one feel bogged down and sluggish.

What other ways does this effect mood? low thyroid hormones can cause low dopamine levels! Understanding how this can effect the hormone loop is really quit simple my friends. In most cases, production of pituitary hormones is normally turned "off," and releasing hormones are sent to stimulate the pituitary when more pituitary hormones are needed. In the case of prolactin, however, prolactin secretion is generally turned "on" unless the hypothalamus secretes the prolactin-inhibiting hormone dopamine to turn prolactin production "off". Dopamine travels from the hypothalamus to the pituitary in a small network of veins called a venous portal system. Anything that interferes with this fine network may prevent this inhibitory message from reaching the pituitary gland. The result is that the pituitary will produce too much prolactin. You will notice a pattern in most peoples test who have just come of Nolvadex or Clomid. Prolactin levels are almost always above normal to high.

By now almost everyone has heard that mixing a Nandralone or progestrine Like tren/deca/ 4-9-estra/ or 13 ethel-methoxy with Nolvadex is a no go and from the Material laid out above and below no wounder why. How about the common bro-ology phrase "deca/tren/nandralone/progestrines shut you down more then other steroids and its is just excepted that they take a longer more rigorous post cycle therapy ,right? WRONG!!! But we will talk more on this later good friends.


OMG needto are you done yet? No but almost good bro. We must finely cover Tamoxifen and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)
Tamoxifen does not block the inhibitory effect of testosterone on FSH release in rats
Tamoxifen does not block the inhibi... [Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1987] - PubMed - NCBI


The results have clearly shown that, in both experiments, the administration of testosterone results in a significant decrease of serum FSH and in a total suppression of LH release. The administration of Tamoxifen, in either dose, does not modify the elevated serum FSH and LH levels present in the orchidectomized animals, and does not antagonize the inhibitory effect on FSH and LH secretion exerted by the concomitant treatment with testosterone propionate

ScienceDirect - Metabolism : Tamoxifen inhibits Leydig cell steroidogenesis: In vivo and in vitro studies
Using isolated interstitial cells from testes of Sprague-Dawley rats, we have shown previously that Tamoxifen inhibits LH and 8-bromo-cyclic AMP stimulated testosterone synthesis in a dose-dependent manner. The inhibitory effect of Tamoxifen could not be reversed with 17***946;-estradiol. The present studies indicate that Tamoxifen directly inhibits testosterone response to gonadotropin stimulation both in immature and mature hypophysectomized rats. When interstitial cells were incubated with Pregnenolone (5×10***8722;7M), testosterone levels in the incubation medium were View the Math+ML= source. Tamoxifen (10***8722;5M) significantly inhibited Pregnenolone-induced testosterone formation. Tamoxifen also significantly diminished adenylate cyclase activity whereas the binding of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to receptor was not affected. These results indicate that several steps of steroidogenesis are inhibited by Tamoxifen.

ScienceDirect - Neurochemistry International : Cyclic AMP enhances gene expression, synthesis and release of newly synthesized alpha and luteinizing hormone beta subunits in cultured rat anterior pituitary cells

Cyclic AMP enhances gene expression, synthesis and release of newly synthesized alpha and luteinizing hormone beta subunits in cultured rat anterior pituitary cells.

Abstract

We have previously demonstrated that GnRH stimulates the synthesis of both the ***945; and LH***946; polypeptide chains, an effect which was reproduced in a non additive manner by direct activation of protein kinases A and C, and abolished by actinomycin D. In the present study, we examined the effects in monolayer cultures from rat anterior pituitary cells of 8-Br-cAMP and cholera toxin, on ***945; and LH***946; subunit mRNA levels and in parallel the synthesis and release of the subunits. RNA blot hybridization analysis with cDNA probes demonstrated that ***945; and LH***946; mRNA levels increased by 8.9- and 4.7-fold, respectively, after a 5 h-incubation in the presence of 6 nM cholera toxin and 7.1- and 2.9-fold in the presence of 1.5 mM 8-Br-cAMP. Under the same conditions, [35S]methionine incorporation into ***945; and LH***946; subunits was optimally stimulated, by 2.8-fold and 1.7 to 2.2-fold, respectively, whether the cAMP analogue 8-Br-cAMP or cholera toxin, an endogenous cAMP generator, were employed. Further, in addition to synthesis, 8-Br-cAMP appeared to increase release of neosynthesized ***945; and LH***946; polypeptides, and in this respect, 8-Br-cAMP was more effective than GnRH. In contrast, 8-Br-cAMP had a weak, non significant effect compared to GnRH on the release of total radioimmunoassayable LH in the cell media. These data provide the first direct evidence for a stimulation of ***945; and LH***946; gene expression by cyclic AMP, which accounts for an increase in subunit synthesis. They suggest that cAMP, as previously shown for diacylglycerols, is a potent candidate for an intracellular mediator of the GnRH effects on subunit synthesis and that it is largely responsible for sustained (protein synthesis-dependent) LH release.


In the most basic of terms Nolvadex blocks the action of hcg. As well as inhibits some positive cAMP mechanism on testosterone and release of LH. Also suggesting that is lowers positive Gnrh mechanism of action for producting testosterone .

Nolvadex nor Clomid "blocks the shut down of LH or FSH that is produced by the introduction of a outside source of hormones into the body (Ie in the above case testosterone)

But Needtogetaas I really do recovery just so super awesomely using Clomid and nolva . Also how come to many people use it with good success?

Did you really? Do they really? Any prove of this other then one saying he does or did? After all I see people screaming for Blood test , show me the test , show me the prof. The second some one says they recovered after a steroid cycle using anything other then Clomid or nolva. Lets start screaming for the same treatment to the above drugs as well.

When I think about it long enough. I been around a very long time. In all my time here on elitefitness and every other chemical enhancement forum out there. I can say with 100% honesty I have seen with my very one eyes Far far more before steroid cycle and after OTC post cycle therapy (pct) blood test. Then I have Before steroid cycle After post cycle therapy (pct) with Nolvadex and or Clomid blood test.

In fact. I have yet to see even 1 single before steroid cycle and after post cycle therapy (pct) with Clomid or nolva blood test in all my years of being on all the forums. Not 1 single 1??????? I have heard people say they have seen them, or say they have them. I have seen people say there is "billions of them" and "decades worth of them" However I have to face reality here and speak the gods honest trust. I have not laid my eyes on a single one of them.
Now have you?

If you have how many of them? 1-2-5 maybe? If There is so many of these so called "billions of studies built up over decades" then please explain to me why laying my eyes on one of them has been so hard? PLease explain to me why everyone does no have a copy of this in their signatures . Why is not every regurgitated response of "only nolva and Clomid work" followed by " and here is my Before steroid cycle and 4 weeks after Clomid/Nolvadex post cycle therapy (pct) is over blood test to prove it???

bllod work big fail after Clomid and or nolva post cycle therapy (pct)
Used Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) Clomid/nolva post cycle therapy (pct) was a big fail
http://www..com/forum/anabolic-stero...after-post cycle therapy (pct).html

Used Clomid for post cycle therapy (pct) and post cycle therapy (pct) again was a big fail
Low test after post cycle therapy (pct).

more fail
shrinked balls 3 months after post cycle therapy (pct) :(


Even worse. post cycle therapy (pct) was great with first post cycle therapy (pct). Talked into Clomid/nolva
and post cycle therapy (pct) was a fail.
Test Levels Are AT 234 6 Weeks After Cycle

Another failed post cycle therapy (pct) using Clomid and hcg
http://forums./showthread.php?173984...T#.TnDZFdT1adc

Clomid/nolva/adex/ and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle therapy (pct) failed again
low test after post cycle therapy (pct)

nolva+Clomid post cycle therapy (pct) fails again

nelson post cycle therapy (pct)
The Very BEST post cycle therapy (pct) for 2010 -- Right Here


SO What shall We use to take the place of these Time tested bro-ology lover approved drugs?
 
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I have used Nolva on its own, a mix of Clomid and Nolva, and Clomid on its own. I followed the protocols of seasoned veterans with hundreds of years of combined experience with AAS and post cycle therapy (pct)'s,...my nuts did not shrink after 3 months,..the opposite actually, and no, I'm not going to show you before and after pics of my nuts to prove it to you, those pics are for my wife,..and your wife :bj:

JK!!

The truth is that I have had incredible recovery results from using both Nolva and Clomid. My 3 cycles have consisted of a total of seven 250mg vials of Sustanon, three vials of 250mg Deca, and two vials of 200mg Boldenone(EQ). I have transformed my body from over 240lbs and 30+%bf to 218lbs and now 11%bf in 14 months, and my last pin was June 25th. I am almost as constantly horny as I was on cycle,..I want to get bloodwork done because I truly believe that my natural test levels are on the high-end. This is a result of Nolvadex and Clomid(both from RUI). I don't care about my fertility, I had a vasectomy 3.5 years ago,...I want to be healthy. Following the post cycle therapy (pct) protocol of experienced people is a direct way toward that.

I have learned how to properly train, eat, cycle and recover over the last year, thanks entirely to the members on this site and the advice that they have given.

If this is your third cycle and you're going for Test and Tren, and you have major questions regarding post cycle therapy (pct), I really believe that you need to listen to the advice of the senior members of this board before you start pinning.
 
My last 2 cycles i used nolva/clomid for my post cycle therapy (pct) and my recovery has been incredible. I read many posts and listened to the Vets on here and have learned a lot. Then i come across this and I just wanted to double check what i have learned on this site before i placed my order for my gear.
 
Nolva/clomid is a tried and true post cycle therapy (pct). Don't let one article that someone wrote make you think any different. If that article were true people that run nolva/clomid would of figured it out on their own and tried something else. If you've ran nolva/clomid post cycle therapy (pct) yourself and have recovered and kept gains then you should know that info you posted is bs. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Also, make sure you're running an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with your cycle to keep estro in check which will also lessen the chance of prolactin related issues from the tren. Run your Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with post cycle therapy (pct) also. It will help stimulate t production.
 
Did you actually read the entire post? (to the OP)

Did you understand the information?

Did you cross-reference the information?

If so... what is your question?

This isn't the whole article, was to much to post. I have about 4 paragraphs left to read.

I went to all his links he posted and checked to see where he got his info from.

From what I read and understand, clomid/nolva is not a good post cycle therapy (pct) for a test tren cycle. I understand I need to run Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) while on cycle. is this a new study and do we switch to it or do we sick with the clomid/nolva for post cycle therapy (pct)?
 
didnt_read.gif
 
How about this man I will make it easy for you. I dont say what I say because I give a crap about making a sale. I say it because I know it works.

I will give you a your next post cycle therapy (pct). I will lay out the post cycle therapy (pct) for you and give you everything you need. You tell me if its the best post cycle therapy (pct) and if you recover great or not. Please send me a email at Nathanchase@needtobuildmuscle.com . In it give me a link to this thread and a name plus address to ship too and I will take care of everything for you. All I ask is a honest review of what you thought of it.

It works and I have no problem proving it. I have many different people who I have asked to do blood test to prove it too and I have all of these results. One guy I just finished with was on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for 7 years and is now completely recovered with blood test to prove. LH,FSH above normal free test above normal and overall test in the high normal.

When you email me Ask me for them Ill send you a copy of them all. Thanks and have a great day everyone
 
I emailed Nate

Thats the way man... and if you need anything else im more than happy to help...

Pct neednt be as hard as it looks to understand it just requires systematic delivery of supplements to stimulate your hormones in a timed manner so providing the optimal release of hormones while others are suppressed... The goal... Balance.

Take care bro... as i say you need anything. im here.
RS
But you are in the safest hands now...
Nates...
 
How about this man I will make it easy for you. I dont say what I say because I give a crap about making a sale. I say it because I know it works.

I will give you a your next pct. I will lay out the pct for you and give you everything you need. You tell me if its the best pct and if you recover great or not. Please send me a email at Nathanchase@needtobuildmuscle.com . In it give me a link to this thread and a name plus address to ship too and I will take care of everything for you. All I ask is a honest review of what you thought of it.

It works and I have no problem proving it. I have many different people who I have asked to do blood test to prove it too and I have all of these results. One guy I just finished with was on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for 7 years and is now completely recovered with blood test to prove. LH,FSH above normal free test above normal and overall test in the high normal.

When you email me Ask me for them Ill send you a copy of them all. Thanks and have a great day everyone

This guy knows his PCT.
 
Jumping in here a little late, but listen to needto...and if he is willing to set you up with the gear you need for your PCT you know it is legit. I would run HCGenerate, Forma Stanzol, Unleashed/Post Cycle, and follow up with Bridge once PCT is complete...maybe add some Torem from Chemicalneed.com...but dont listen to me, follow needto directions to the tee and you will keep your gains and then some. He is the Iron Angel bro!
 
I know the guy needto is talking about. He told me the whole story about him over the phone just a few weeks ago.

Bro...you're in good hands now. I can assure you that.
 
Name me another owner of a company that backs up their products like that...... excellent customer service starts at the top.
 
That's what I'm talking about. How many owners of a company do you know that would back up there products like Nate just did. Nate knows his shit and his number one goal is to help people. I guarantee you that. He would make up shit just to get sells
 
Wow, incredibly generous offer from Nate. Very solid. Not to mention he knows how to set up cycles like it's nobody's business.
 
Thats the way man... and if you need anything else im more than happy to help...

Pct neednt be as hard as it looks to understand it just requires systematic delivery of supplements to stimulate your hormones in a timed manner so providing the optimal release of hormones while others are suppressed... The goal... Balance.

Take care bro... as i say you need anything. im here.
RS
But you are in the safest hands now...
Nates...

This man knows quite a bit about the body I can vouch for, need2 will be of great help as well.
 
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