Deca causes heart remodeling? I quick examination...

[Gbrad]

So I saw a post where it was stated that deca causes cardiac hypertrophy. Given my desire to run this compound in low doses for trt and the occasional blast, I decided to research this assertion.

So far the studies I found were in rats given 15mg/kg. That's 1350 mg for a male of 200lbs!!! Holy lord that's a lot.

The findings did suggest an increase in left ventricular diameter to the tune of 17% etc. So, I'm going to continue researching but definitely feel ALOT better about running 100-200mgs for trt add on and 400-600 for blasting. I also will look into the suggestion in the same post to run NPP instead. I don't see how it would matter too much on this point though given same compound diff ester.

Anyone with any further clarification or comments chime in please! I know we got lots of Deca fans in da house!

 

[Roush]

I'd imagine if they did similar tests at those levels with other AAS compounds, the results would be close or similar as well.. Granite deca is a long ester and is in the system a long time, because of the ester, but mg for mg of the actual compound is still the same (the ester isn't somehow increasing the mg dosage)

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I'm pretty good at keeping up to date on the research when it comes to things like this, and I will say that I have seen no human evidence that deca is somehow more dangerous in relation to cardiac hypertrophy than other steroids.

I have seen plenty of human studies using deca at 200mg for different medical purposes with no lasting side effects on the heart whatsoever. But, of course, this is a very low dose.

There is NO evidence conclusively proving that steroids cause cardiac hypertrophy, however there is plenty of anecdotal/association type evidence that, IMO, should not be ignored.
But this dangerous side effect, as I mentioned in another thread, can be caused by constant use & high doses in general - rather than any 1 particular steroid.

 

[MattyIce]

The research I read basically said the ester was still prevalent after 6 months which increased the risk of cardiac hypertrophy. All AAS can cause CH.

Hypothetical...

You run hormone-deca for 14 weeks. Off for 14 weeks. Its possible there is hormone from the first injection still in the blood stream. Then you cycle again for 14 weeks and so... it could be related to continual use... which as we all agree is the major cause of Cardiac Hypertrophy due to AAS use. Is it a stretch? Perhaps... to me, no. Is it worth the risk? To me, no.

Run NPP and play it safe, IMHO.

 

[Roush]

It seems odd that someone would single out just deca and say that deca causes this.

 

[MattyIce]

It seems odd that someone would single out just deca and say that deca causes this.

Deca is the ester... the study was nandrolone deca, but test deca would have the same effect I would conclude.

 

[Roush]

If NPP is safer then deca,, why is it I can get a prescription for deca (which I do) but I can't get one for NPP.. The medical industry goes to deca for nandrolone treatments for patients rather then NPP .. If NPP was safer, why wouldn't docs use NPP instead of deca for nandrolone treatments
?

 

[Gbrad]

It seems odd that someone would single out just deca and say that deca causes this.

I agree which is why I wanted to do some research. It would make sense that any anabolic compound could cause cardiac hypertrophy. Especially the left ventricle which pumps blood throughout the body. I would also suggest that chronically high blood pressure, whether aas induced or not would cause the same problems.

So my takeaway for now is therapeutic doses are good to go and with blast doses bp, HCT, and Hb need to need to be carefully monitored. Of course the last statement is a given, but it at least helps clarify the "why" in monitoring bloods. Especially an old fart like me who's arteries (pipes) are older and stiffer than a young blokes!

 

[MattyIce]

If NPP is safer then deca,, why is it I can get a prescription for deca (which I do) but I can't get one for NPP.. The medical industry goes to deca for nandrolone treatments for patients rather then NPP .. If NPP was safer, why wouldn't docs use NPP instead of deca for nandrolone treatments
?

what is the therapeutic dose recommended for patients? Why can you get a script for Xanax and not marijuana? (where I live)

 

[MattyIce]

Cardiac and Metabolic Effects of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Abuse on Lipids, Blood Pressure, Left Ventricular Dimensions, and Rhythm

Lots of good info

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Here is another study that goes completely against the argument that deca is somehow worse for the heart:

Effects of testosterone and nandrolone on cardiac function: a rando... - PubMed - NCBI

2 groups, 200mg test (mixed esters akin to sust) vs 200mg deca for 4 weeks.
Test was found to increase left ventricular hypertrophy (though it was still within the normal range) while deca was found to do absolutely nothing.

Again, all steroids taken at high enough doses or for long enough overall durations will increase the risk of cardiac hypertrophy.

 

[Roush]

what is the therapeutic dose recommended for patients? Why can you get a script for Xanax and not marijuana? (where I live)

That's gonna depend on the patient and what he is being treated for.. But it's way lower then anything we would blast. But if we blast 600 mgs, and do that say four times over a period of several years.. Our total mg dosage used, is still probably less then someone receiving nandrolone treatments for years and years, I'd imagine

 

[MattyIce]

Here is another study that goes completely against the argument that deca is somehow worse for the heart:

Effects of testosterone and nandrolone on cardiac function: a rando... - PubMed - NCBI

2 groups, 200mg test (mixed esters akin to sust) vs 200mg deca for 4 weeks.
Test was found to increase left ventricular hypertrophy (though it was still within the normal range) while deca was found to do absolutely nothing.

Again, all steroids taken at high enough doses or for long enough overall durations will increase the risk of cardiac hypertrophy.

I think that is exactly the point. If the deca ester is continual for up to 6 months and a person assumes when they stop injecting the hormone release lasts 5-7 days or whatever... they are wrong.

IDK any AAS users on the 200mg deca for 4 weeks cycle. lol The longterm use is what the article was referring to.

 

[MattyIce]

That's gonna depend on the patient and what he is being treated for.. But it's way lower then anything we would blast. But if we blast 600 mgs, and do that say four times over a period of several years.. Our total mg dosage used, is still probably less then someone receiving nandrolone treatments for years and years, I'd imagine

LOL, I didn't write the article, I was just sharing some info I read. Believe what you will, it makes sense to me and really isn't even worth any additional risk if any at all.

 

[Roush]

LOL, I didn't write the article, I was just sharing some info I read. Believe what you will, it makes sense to me and really isn't even worth any additional risk if any at all.

It's worth looking into for sure.. Apart from that, I'm actually going to be using NPP myself (from a UGL), was gonna front load NPP with deca (I hate waiting 8 weeks for the nandrolone to start really kicking in,, so NPP sounds like the way to go)

 

[Megatron28]

I think some of you guys are not seeing the forest through the trees. You are focusing on esters when you should be focusing on the compound (i.e. nandrolone), the dosage and the length of time used.

 

[carverelli]

True, the decoanate ester lingers in your system for quite awhile, the actual hormone left to cause CH would be insignificant. Nandrolone is the culprit here, NoT the ester.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

Here is another study that goes completely against the argument that deca is somehow worse for the heart:

Effects of testosterone and nandrolone on cardiac function: a rando... - PubMed - NCBI

2 groups, 200mg test (mixed esters akin to sust) vs 200mg deca for 4 weeks.
Test was found to increase left ventricular hypertrophy (though it was still within the normal range) while deca was found to do absolutely nothing.

Again, all steroids taken at high enough doses or for long enough overall durations will increase the risk of cardiac hypertrophy.

Agreed.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

I'd be more concerned about the effects of Tren on the heart to be honest, compared to all others. I read a study where mg per mg Nandrolone was worse for something cardiovascular 10 fold over testosterone, hardening of the arterial wall maybe, I'll try and find it.

Also, I think a lot of the cardiac effects can be worked around to some extent by controlling blood pressure (I personally take 10mg Cialis ED, could do a little better on my sodium intake) and especially Hematocrit (so getting blood dumped really, its not that big of a deal) and obviously by using the least you can. I cruise on 200mg of Test and find I get awesome results blasting 500mg Deca on top of it, it's an awesome compound. All AAS when abused have the potential to cause issues, Tren being one of the biggest ones.

Also, I think orals are worse for the cardiovascular system, especially the lipids ofcourse then there is always the debate that lipids don't cause heart diesease etc etc

Anyway, cut it short, all AAS can do this, just gotta be smart about it and realise this comes with the territory, of course it can be worked around to a good extent however.

 

[tury694]

Heavy loads of cardiovascular exercise causes the heart to grow, the use of AAS causes the heart to grow, and lifting heavy weights causes the heart to grow. All athletes in sports that demand cardiovascular fitness have an enlarged heart. All cyclists, basketball players, soccer players, cross country runners have enlarged hearts. This is a scientific fact, and sadly it was once thought to be benign, but now the medical community disagrees as to whether this is harmless or not. Again the heart can exhibit hypertrophy in the absence of AAS, add AAS and it will probably grow more.