going below parallel

[pullinbig]

most people rounding off is because of poor form. i have yet to help someone who could not squat deep with a little one on one, and that been a lot of squatting. =0)

but everyone has their experinces and opinions, i just share mine.

 

[dude]

I disagree.

I don't know your body-type, but I'm 6ft 2" with "long" legs. That's the only body that may be susceptible to back injury due to the moment (torque) force while in the hole (back serves as a pivot). I used to give the same rationale you did above to justify my quarter squats when starting out - luckily I did that for just about two weeks. Then I started to strengthen my lower back. Point being that lack of lower back strength is the ONLY REASON why people with my body type (and most others) cannot squat ass to floor. Once the back is strengthened, there is no rounding. And if there is, then strengthen that back bubba.

Your statement is not true. I am 6'1" and I cannot squat ATF. The simple reason is that my hamstrings are extremely inflexible. Thus, when I squat my back rounds because my lower back cannot maintain the proper lordosis. Therefore, I only squat to the limit of my current flexibility which is parallel. My lower back is not weak as I do plenty of DL's, good mornings, and hyperextensions with adequate weight.

 

[pullinbig]

Your statement is not true. I am 6'1" and I cannot squat ATF. The simple reason is that my hamstrings are extremely inflexible. Thus, when I squat my back rounds because my lower back cannot maintain the proper lordosis. Therefore, I only squat to the limit of my current flexibility which is parallel. My lower back is not weak as I do plenty of DL's, good mornings, and hyperextensions with adequate weight.

try a narrower stance. normally the groin area is what limits peoples depth due to a lock of flexability not the hams. and this ocurs from a ultra wide stance. plus your hams are contracting on the descent not stretching.

heres another tip, its called stretching.

everyone, barring injury, medical condition or handicap can squat deep.

lordosis is an abnormal curvature typically of the lumbar. it has nothing to do with ham inflexability. its a medical condition.

i have heard almost every excuse there is as to why folks cant squat deep. 99% of the time the truth is folks just dont want to drop dwon in weight and start over. nothing uglier than someone backing out with 5 plates and doin half squats. id rather see a guy/girl squtting the bar correctly than the 5 plate deal.

and once again most people dont have a clue what a parrallel squat is.i get clips all the time from varoious board and over 75% of them swear they are deep as hell and when i watch the clips they aint even close. i have saved some of the best ones and may post them sometime but prolly wont out of respect to the guys. they are funny as hell though.

 

[Toranaga]

heres another tip, its called stretching.
everyone, barring injury, medical condition or handicap can squat deep.
i have heard almost every excuse there is as to why folks cant squat deep. 99% of the time the truth is folks just dont want to drop dwon in weight and start over.
and once again most people dont have a clue what a parrallel squat is.

I got to give it to you PB ; you've got lots of patience. I simply don't have the time for these jokers - they'd rather give excuses than go down in weight and do some hard work.

 

[pullinbig]

it does my heart good to see folks start training correctly and see their numbers soar and their body comp make drastic changes. i normally hang on all PLing boards but was attracted to this board because of the amount of young people here. hopefully i have made a small difference so many can save a lot of wasted time and effort trying to find their way in the gym.

as far as patience goes some areas i have patience and others i dont. =0)

 

[jcp2]

try a narrower stance. normally the groin area is what limits peoples depth due to a lock of flexability not the hams. and this ocurs from a ultra wide stance. plus your hams are contracting on the descent not stretching.

This is so true, and probably the most neglected stretch in the gym. I have to stretch my groin for a considerable amount of time if i am going to a below parallel box. Personally i can get to below parallel but not what you guys consider ass to the grass, nor do i care to.

 

[Toranaga]

hopefully i have made a small difference so many can save a lot of wasted time and effort trying to find their way in the gym.

BIG difference, my friend, big difference. Hell, I'm doing PL moves and doing them correctly mostly cause of your vets like yourself. And I'm not that young either.

 

[pullinbig]

if you look at most buried squats you will see that they are normally 2-3" below parallel. thats deep esp if you got some decent size legs. for the small legged guys oits a little differnt story. and also so for the wide stance low bar squatters its tougher to get depth just because of the physics of the movement. anything below parallel is deep IMO. the prob once again is most guys dont understand what a parallel squat looks like.

 

[Toranaga]

This is so true, and probably the most neglected stretch in the gym. I have to stretch my groin for a considerable amount of time if i am going to a below parallel box. Personally i can get to below parallel but not what you guys consider ass to the grass, nor do i care to.

As long as it'd be a meet-sanctioned lift i.e below parallel (hip relative to knee), I think you're good.

I do three sets of warm-up - that's enough to get everything nice and warm for me. No extreme stretching required, though I throw that in on occasion between sets.

 

[pullinbig]

BIG difference, my friend, big difference. Hell, I'm doing PL moves and doing them correctly mostly cause of your vets like yourself. And I'm not that young either.

well ill be 46 sunday so i may have a decade or two on ya.

 

[Toranaga]

well ill be 46 sunday so i may have a decade or two on ya.

ok, agreed. You're an old fart

 

[dude]

Actually there is such thing as normal lumbar lordosis. Everyone has it along with thoracic kyphosis. It is only when this curvature is excessive that it becomes a problem. During the descent of a squat the hamstrings work very little due to gravity and the quads control this action. The hamsrings are actively being stretched by this. Now the hamstrings attach at the posterior lateral sides of the tibia as well as the ischial tuberosities of the pelvis. Therefore during this stretch as you descend the tight hamstrings pull on the ischial tuberosities of the pelvis thus creating a posterior pelvic tilt. This posterior pelvic tilt in turn creates a decreased lordosis of the lumbar spine which then creates a greater probability of causing a herniated disc. I am not making this up. I have been in school for 4.5 years to become a physical therapist and have studied many years of kinesiology and anatomy. I do stretch and am working on solving this problem that I have. As soon as I have the appropriate range in my hamstrings I will then start squatting below parallel.

 

[Toranaga]

Actually there is such thing as normal lumbar lordosis. Everyone has it along with thoracic kyphosis. It is only when this curvature is abnormal that it becomes a problem. During the descent of a squat the hamstrings work very little due to gravity and the quads control this action. The hamsrings are actively being stretched by this. Now the hamstrings attach at the posterior lateral sides of the tibia as well as the ischial tuberosities of the pelvis. Therefore during this stretch as you descend the tight hamstrings pull on the ischial tuberosities of the pelvis thus creating a posterior pelvic tilt. This posterior pelvic tilt in turn creates a decreased lordosis of the lumbar spine which then creates a greater probability of causing a herniated disc. I am not making this up. I have been in school for 4.5 years to become a physical therapist and have studied many years of kinesiology and anatomy. I do stretch and am working on solving this problem that I have. As soon as I have the appropriate range in my hamstrings I will then start squatting below parallel.

I think you're just making this up.

Education is ALWAYS a good thing.

Excercise Physiology is not my area of expertise - at least not the theory. Keep in mind though that theory and practise in science can be dichotomous.

And good luck with those squats.

 

[dude]

I think you're just making this up.

Education is ALWAYS a good thing.

Excercise Physiology is not my area of expertise - at least not the theory. Keep in mind though that theory and practise in science can be dichotomous.

And good luck with those squats.

LOL! I guess the basic idea is that sometimes people should work in a safe range initially to prevent injury. Once you have the adequate range of motion then move onto full range of squats. Overall, I truly believe in squatting as deep as one can. Keep lifting heavy!!

 

[pullinbig]

Actually there is such thing as normal lumbar lordosis. Everyone has it along with thoracic kyphosis. It is only when this curvature is excessive that it becomes a problem. During the descent of a squat the hamstrings work very little due to gravity and the quads control this action. The hamsrings are actively being stretched by this. Now the hamstrings attach at the posterior lateral sides of the tibia as well as the ischial tuberosities of the pelvis. Therefore during this stretch as you descend the tight hamstrings pull on the ischial tuberosities of the pelvis thus creating a posterior pelvic tilt. This posterior pelvic tilt in turn creates a decreased lordosis of the lumbar spine which then creates a greater probability of causing a herniated disc. I am not making this up. I have been in school for 4.5 years to become a physical therapist and have studied many years of kinesiology and anatomy. I do stretch and am working on solving this problem that I have. As soon as I have the appropriate range in my hamstrings I will then start squatting below parallel.

i have never met anyone that couldnt go below parallel because of tight hammies. a groin yes but not hammies.

i train on fridays with a liscensed physical therapist. ill run it by him. all that technical jargon dont pan out in the gym most of the time anyway. it sounds good to say, looks impressive but high squats look silly. youd be better off doing some hack squats on a machine that supports you lower back then you can go deep. i just dont see in mind how hammies tightening up will pull you forward. i can see it pulling you back but not forward. i am speaking from common sense and years of squatting and training others to squat properly.

if you getig folded over i doubt its your hammies thats the culprit. its poor form more than likely or a weak core. if its not youll be the first one i ever met or heard of with this one. i thought i had heard um all too.

as you are a physical therapist (soon to be) then you should be able to fugure out how to stretch those hammies. takes about a week of statics every day.

 

[dude]

No my tight hammies doesn't prevent me from squatting below parallel but it does set me up for probable injury. I have been doing plenty of stretching and as I said, once the range is back to normal then I will indeed squat below parallel. I wish I had a video in which you would see my pelvis tilt posteriorly leading to a very rounded lower back. When this happens the very bottom of the movement becomes a good morning. Therefore my legs are doing nothing when getting out of this deep position. Maybe I can borrow a digital camera to take a video. Otherwise it's difficult for me to illustrate simply what is going on. Anywho, it is good to hear that you and a physical therapist work together. I think it is a crucial relationship that will only benefit the patient/client. I am in no way doubting your knowledge of exercise but I am trying to explain my specific situation. Things are not as clear cut as they seem and you can't just tell everyone to squat deep regardless of underlying musculoskeletal problems that may cause injury.

 

[pullinbig]

No my tight hammies doesn't prevent me from squatting below parallel but it does set me up for probable injury. I have been doing plenty of stretching and as I said, once the range is back to normal then I will indeed squat below parallel. I wish I had a video in which you would see my pelvis tilt posteriorly leading to a very rounded lower back. When this happens the very bottom of the movement becomes a good morning. Therefore my legs are doing nothing when getting out of this deep position. Maybe I can borrow a digital camera to take a video. Otherwise it's difficult for me to illustrate simply what is going on. Anywho, it is good to hear that you and a physical therapist work together. I think it is a crucial relationship that will only benefit the patient/client. I am in no way doubting your knowledge of exercise but I am trying to explain my specific situation. Things are not as clear cut as they seem and you can't just tell everyone to squat deep regardless of underlying musculoskeletal problems that may cause injury.

I am not his patient lololololololol. he approached me about adding some size naturally. we lift together on friday 2 or 3 times per month.

as far as your situstion goes all i am saying is that you are the only person i have ever heard of with this problem for rounding off. i have helped many folks who had a similar problem at the bottom of the squat and within 5 minutes all of them were squatting correctly no prob. it was a form issue with all of them or that their core was too weak for the weight they were using. i had them back off a bit on weight and walaa, no more getting bent over. nice deep squats with perfect form.

so if you squat with just the bar do you still get pulled over once you hit the hole? if so i would sugeest some box squats for a while at about 2" below parallel. make sure to sit way back and relax at the bottom before pressing up. thre descent should break the normal plane of a regular squat. this really emphasises the hips, hams and glutes on the bottom of the press.

send me a clip from the side view. ill be glad to look at it. pm me before you do as i have a differnt email for clips. btw how much do you weigh and how tall are you. good luck

 

[SquatFreak]

I got an amazing increase in size/strength once I descended below parallel (or at least as deep as I can go). My legs are around 31.5 (not that I consider this huge) so they are solidly compressed once I get a degree below parallel. PullinBig is right on with his advice of backing off on the lbs. and concentrating on form. Since the squat has rotation points at the neck, each vertebrae, the hips, the knees, the ankles FORM is paramount of poundage. Since Gene Rychak (spell?) recently busted 1000lbs I'd bet a 1500lb squat would be possible if humans were able to grip the bar as in the bench press.

 

[pullinbig]

I got an amazing increase in size/strength once I descended below parallel (or at least as deep as I can go). My legs are around 31.5 (not that I consider this huge) so they are solidly compressed once I get a degree below parallel. PullinBig is right on with his advice of backing off on the lbs. and concentrating on form. Since the squat has rotation points at the neck, each vertebrae, the hips, the knees, the ankles FORM is paramount of poundage. Since Gene Rychak (spell?) recently busted 1000lbs I'd bet a 1500lb squat would be possible if humans were able to grip the bar as in the bench press.

bro i am with ya all the way up to the bench grip helping the squat lbs. explain that please. thanks.

and yes anything below parallel with 31.5" legs is deep with the bar behind you.

 

[SquatFreak]

I meant that IF humans were able to grip the bar w/ their toes (like monkeys) like the hands do in the bench press imagine how much weight could be moved w/ the lower body. Alot of handicapped people who were born w/out arms have adapted by using they're feet in everday life activities just like regular people do w/ they're hands (eating, bathing, writing, driving, etc.) In the old school I've seen pics of dudes pressing up a bar w/ the soles of they're feet. It looked dangerous as hell tho.

A deep as possible squat w/ 275lbs will result in MUCH better results than a half ass shallow squat. I know I did high squats for yrs w/ inferior results then when I dropped the weight and hurt my ego by doing DEEP I instantly started to gain like never before.

BTW, I stumbled across an incredible article on the squat on a "granola" website that takes a totally different approach but is VERY interesting. It unintentionally goes into detail on why u must squat deep.

http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/28/fear_the_squat.htm

I hope this helps someone.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.