going to do a 2 week cycle need advice

[halfwit]

Yeah, picking an intellectual fight with Zilla never ends well. Definitely one of the guys that I know I listen to when it comes to the science behind recompositioning the human body.

OP: 100mcg of clen is no joke. I'd honestly focus on diet, and if need be - add in ECA for now. Clenbuterol is like launching a tactical missile at a fly, it'll get the job done, but there's going to be a hell of a mess to pick up afterwards.

 

[luckypaul]

Yeah, picking an intellectual fight with Zilla never ends well. Definitely one of the guys that I know I listen to when it comes to the science behind recompositioning the human body.

OP: 100mcg of clen is no joke. I'd honestly focus on diet, and if need be - add in ECA for now. Clenbuterol is like launching a tactical missile at a fly, it'll get the job done, but there's going to be a hell of a mess to pick up afterwards.

Do you want the truth or bull shit? Either way is okay for me. The advice given was complete bullshit from a novice. Dig what I'm saying?

 

[luckypaul]

Im not here to stroke egos.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Do you want the truth or bull shit? Either way is okay for me. The advice given was complete bullshit from a novice. Dig what I'm saying?

Oh dear, we have another "truth" guy....I'm just waiting for you to come out with the pudding like many others have done before you (that worked out AWESOME for them).

I gave you the truth, backed up with a tonne of evidence, if you want to ignore it and keep your head in your ass that is perfectly fine with me.
Or, maybe, you can try keeping YOUR ego in check and accepting the fact that in this situation your dealing with someone who knows more than you do. Learn from the information, apply it, and progress.

Either way I don't care.
When you have an education background in nutrition like I have, when you have read EVERY single piece of scientific data relevant to this thread, when you have the "in the trenches" experience that I have....THEN I might give a shit about your opinion on my advice

 

[gill13]

BTW a fucked up thyroid can make you a fat ass butterball or a skinny no muscle having loser

clen causes growth of the heart and the walls of the heart get thicker, which can eventually lead to heart attacks. an under active thyroid is no big deal, sure it sucks, but it can be treated by just taking t3 from a doctor.

btw i've been on 75-100mcg of pharma t3 for the past 6 weeks and havent lost any muscle. i just added tren last week, but prior to that i was only on 250mg test a week. some people think theyre losing muscle on t3 but really theyre just extremely flat.

Dont listen to anything this guys says.

LOL please point out the points where i was wrong. i'd love to hear this. i also love how on all these steroid forums all over the internet people automatically assume that the new guy has no idea what hes talking about.

what did i say that was incorrect? that clen fucks with your heart? to get as lean as possible before bulking? to dose accordingly by how your body responds to these drugs? i dont understand mr admin boss man please tell me what i said was wrong and then please grace us with your knowledge

 

[gill13]

you think it makes sense for someone fat like this kid, to keep bulking or even bulk at all? everyone on here has 1 goal in regards to their physique; to be lean with muscle. hes natty, so you think with the bodyfat he has and the small amount of muscle he has wont lead to extreme muscle loss during his cut? bullshit.

now this is only my technique and this is what i tell my clients as well (the guys who wanna bulk up, and especially the guys i train who are on gear). if you're not in the 10% bodyfat zone you shouldnt bulk. say you're 10% bodyfat and you go on a hard bulk for 3 months. if you bulk right and diet is on point you will gain a small amount of fat. but the best part is you will still be fairly lean when you're done bulking. this will result in a shorter cut and you wont have to be on a crazy deficit like 1800. you'll be less eager to lose the fat.

 

[Ghost124]

LOL please point out the points where i was wrong. i'd love to hear this. i also love how on all these steroid forums all over the internet people automatically assume that the new guy has no idea what hes talking about.

Sure:

why? because i would rather have a fucked up thyroid than a fucked up heart.

DING DING DING! Story time!!
I was on T3 this summer(with test, yes NEVER use T3 while you're off and OP is too young to cycle so T3 should be out of the question). So I was running a small dose. One morning I woke up with very bad chest pains and a very very fast racing heart. I thought it was my anxiety acting up but 2 hours of chest pain and very fast racing heart made me go to the emergency room and check myself in. They put my finger to the oxymonitor and checked my blood pressure. Usually you have to wait 3-5 hours to be seen from the ER. Whatever they saw on that screen made them get me into a bed ASAP. I am talking where I was in a hospital bed within 5 min of walking into the ER which is rare.

In the hospital bed I saw my vitals on the screens around me. My heart race was all over the place. Anywhere from 140-210 BPM and literally changing up and down in seconds. My blood pressure was all over the place too from 140/90 to 180/100. They ran EKG and thankfully I was not having a heart attack. However the EKG did diagnose me with atrial fibrillation or Afib for short. They ran bloodwork on me. Doctor came back and right away asked me what I was taking. He told me that the cause of all this was an over active thyroid. They gave me some beta blockers which calmed my heart down and told me to get off T3 asap.

So do not say T3 is safe for the heart. The crazy thing was, I did not even run a dose that high at all. And afterwards I did research and it seemed like my condition as a side affect of T3 is rare, but it can happen.

 

[gill13]

ghost: clen is a bronchodialtor medicine used for asthma. yes t3 obviously raises your heart rate but clen causes stiffening of the heart's walls. clen is a straight up stimulant and t3 is not. simple as that. both are dangerous if used improperly, but i truly believe t3 is safer especially in the long run.

 

[halfwit]

Do you want the truth or bull shit? Either way is okay for me. The advice given was complete bullshit from a novice. Dig what I'm saying?

I'd like you to point out how Zilla has said anything remotely untrue. Look, I'm all for guys sharing knowledge, but to assume that anything Zilla posts is bullshit is frankly comical at best.

Please point out to the rest of us how you know better, and please back up any scientific claims with the appropriate study citations - as Zilla has done time and time again.

I find it rather insulting that you would assume this board lacks the ability to decipher bro-science from true knowledge, when that has been the focus many of us have pushed for over the last few years.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

so you think with the bodyfat he has and the small amount of muscle he has wont lead to extreme muscle loss during his cut? bullshit.

Since we're going full HAM on the broscience in this thread...

This statement of yours makes no sense whatsoever.
At higher bf's your LESS likely to lose muscle when cutting, not more.
Also, the less muscle you have developed the LESS likely you are to lose it, not more.

The people at most risk of muscle loss when dieting are advanced lifters who are already relatively lean (sub 10%bf), not average joe's like the OP.

 

[luckypaul]

This might shock you, but as an evidence based natural bodybuilding coach I have forgotten more information about this topic than you will EVER learn

Here is a solid review on the subject showing that up to 1% BW loss per week is perfectly fine for muscle preservation while dieting for natural bodybuilders dieting to contest ready condition. The author happens to be someone I keep in regular contact with btw:

JISSN | Full text | Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: nutrition and supplementation

Now 2 things:
- the OP is NOT getting ready for a contest and doesn't aim to get completely peeled, therefore he can be more severe in his approach than the review recommends.
- the OP is also planning to use clen, an anti-catabolic hormone that will help preserve mass compared to natural bodybuilders highlighted in the review.

With that said, if you actually knew what the fuck you were talking about you would know that 1800cals by itself means absolutely nothing since every individual has different meta-bolic rates & levels of TDEE.
For the OP, 1800cals would equal a 40% caloric deficit. Its high but not even CLOSE to how extreme your making it out to be since it should only lead to around 1.3% BW loss per week.
That means the OP is only SLIGHLTY above what is recommended by the evidence AND isn't planning on getting ready for a contest AND he is using clen AND he is not close to being classified as an "advanced bodybuilder".


There is NO evidence for muscle loss after 2-3 weeks of severe dieting for trained individuals. For more information go read Lyle McDonald's RFL book.

You also forget that LBM is comprised of water, glycogen AND muscle.
The first two go down when dieting and there is jackshit you can do about it without drugs. The final one will be preserved if you diet properly - maintain high protein intake, focus on tension (rather than damage/stress) in the weight room, minimize cardio, etc.


There is NO evidence for your bullshit remark about "slowing down your metabolism" by dieting too hard either.
Meta-bolic slowdown occurs because your dieting REGARDLESS of how slowly you go through the process. This entire process is known as adaptive thermogenesis and you can learn more about it here:

Adaptive thermogenesis in humans

The rest of the meta-bolic slowdown occurs primarily due to too much cardio and happens mostly to women. It has NOTHING to do with the size of the caloric deficit induced through diet.


Anecdotally, I've had clients diet down on very low calories and lose NO more muscle compared to others who have taken the slower approach and had the same start & end points with regards to bf%.
Now they might all happen to be superhuman OR, maybe, just maybe, I know what the fuck I'm doing when it comes to nutrition.


To conclude:
- I AM coming from a position of knowledge.
- YOU need to do more research on the subject
- Provided the OP maintains a high protein intake (1.25g/lb) and focuses on tension in the weight room (weight on the bar, not reps), muscle loss simply isn't a worry at his bf%.

Blah blah blah. bs. Go on a 1800 caoriel a day diet and tell how it goes. I'm not dazzled by bs Your statment is so absurd, it is not worth a rebuttle.

 

[luckypaul]

I'd like you to point out how Zilla has said anything remotely untrue. Look, I'm all for guys sharing knowledge, but to assume that anything Zilla posts is bullshit is frankly comical at best.

Please point out to the rest of us how you know better, and please back up any scientific claims with the appropriate study citations - as Zilla has done time and time again.

I find it rather insulting that you would assume this board lacks the ability to decipher bro-science from true knowledge, when that has been the focus many of us have pushed for over the last few years.

At the point that the op is at he needs to build lbm in order to raise his metabolism, and thus slim down. He is way ahead of himself. Going on an 1800 calorie a day diet is not going to do anything good for him. This is almost common sense. Im shocked that a member with as much information would dispence such hogwash.

We are looking for members to go on 1800 calorie a day diet. Start a log, and watvh the lbs come off.

Look at op's photo. Enough said. Save the clen for latter.

 

[luckypaul]

Yeah, picking an intellectual fight with Zilla never ends well. Definitely one of the guys that I know I listen to when it comes to the science behind recompositioning the human body.

OP: 100mcg of clen is no joke. I'd honestly focus on diet, and if need be - add in ECA for now. Clenbuterol is like launching a tactical missile at a fly, it'll get the job done, but there's going to be a hell of a mess to pick up afterwards.

And lets not forget, it will do nothing for him long term. There is no quick solution for what op is after.

Hard work and a clean diet is all he needs. Save the clen for latter.

Now step away from the clen, forget the 1800 calorie a day diet, and pick up that barbell and get busy. I bet my life it will work for you.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Blah blah blah. bs. Go on a 1800 caoriel a day diet and tell how it goes. I'm not dazzled by bs Your statment is so absurd, it is not worth a rebuttle.

You see what happens when you disrespect someone who knows what they're talking about?
Not "from a position of knowledge" and should "research the topic" hmmm...those comments look pretty damn stupid right now right?

You made a broscience statement, I called you out - something, as HW said, we fight hard against on this board because we want to make our advice evidence-based.
I provided strong evidence to back me up and proved pretty fucking conclusively and I know what I'm talking about.

Instead of being a man and accepting the fact that you were wrong about this you decided to listen to your ego and brush off all the evidence as "bs". Disappointing, but not surprising since that's what other bros have done before you...weird coincidence that they're no longer around.

Suffice to say that I'll let the readers go through this thread and make up their own minds with regards to who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't

 

[PrinceDianabol]

Blah blah blah. bs. Go on a 1800 caoriel a day diet and tell how it goes. I'm not dazzled by bs Your statment is so absurd, it is not worth a rebuttle.

The above statement is completely moronic. Rip just provided scientific evidence of his claims and all you have to say is that it's absurd and not worth a rebuttal? More like you don't have a rebuttal.

At the point that the op is at he needs to build lbm in order to raise his metabolism, and thus slim down. He is way ahead of himself. Going on an 1800 calorie a day diet is not going to do anything good for him. This is almost common sense. Im shocked that a member with as much information would dispence such hogwash.

We are looking for members to go on 1800 calorie a day diet. Start a log, and watvh the lbs come off.

Look at op's photo. Enough said. Save the clen for latter.

I am actually currently on a 2000k/cal diet and I'm much larger than the OP - so it's a bigger deficit. I can't say I've noticed any more LBM loss at all than smaller deficits (glycogen aside.) I've cut many times, both small and large deficits and never had problems. My only issue with smaller deficits is that I have to diet longer.

And lets not forget, it will do nothing for him long term. There is no quick solution for what op is after.

Hard work and a clean diet is all he needs. Save the clen for latter.

Now step away from the clen, forget the 1800 calorie a day diet, and pick up that barbell and get busy. I bet my life it will work for you.

I agree with saving clen for when he's at lower body fat percentages as it's going to be a far more effective tool then, but to say it will do nothing for him long term is ridiculous. Provided he knows/learns how to diet properly to cut + maintain there is absolutely no reason why he wouldn't keep his results.

All in all, I respect your right to give opinions but don't refute scientific evidence (and the most knowledgeable member on this board) by saying 'blah blah blah.' It's just insulting and discredits yourself. You could respectfully offer your opinions without starting a pissing match... a pissing match you have already lost lol.

 

[luckypaul]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Use the clen, go in the 2 wk 1800 cal diet, and post up some photos in 2 weeks. If I am not correct I will eat my words. If on the otherhand things did not go as planned, try it my way. The old fashion wayn sweat and tears

Zilla and I will put or heads together and one way or another op you will look like a body builder. Can everyone agree on this? Good luck my friend. I enjoy the hell out of seeing people better themselves.

 

[luckypaul]

Oh dear, we have another "truth" guy....I'm just waiting for you to come out with the pudding like many others have done before you (that worked out AWESOME for them).

I gave you the truth, backed up with a tonne of evidence, if you want to ignore it and keep your head in your ass that is perfectly fine with me.
Or, maybe, you can try keeping YOUR ego in check and accepting the fact that in this situation your dealing with someone who knows more than you do. Learn from the information, apply it, and progress.

Either way I don't care.
When you have an education background in nutrition like I have, when you have read EVERY single piece of scientific data relevant to this thread, when you have the "in the trenches" experience that I have....THEN I might give a shit about your opinion on my advice

How rude okay you are right. I never should have challenged your searing logic and wisdom.

Like I said grass hopper, we will see in 2 weeks Its been a pleasure. It really has.

 

[luckypaul]

The proof is in the pudding I only want the best for my new friend. No ego here zilla.

 

[luckypaul]

Okay fellas I'm moving on. Be back in 2 weeks. We will see how it goes. Until them I hope everyone is well, may your workout be only the best, and nothing but good things happening in your lives.

Paul, straight from the trenches.

 

[halfwit]

At the point that the op is at he needs to build lbm in order to raise his metabolism, and thus slim down. He is way ahead of himself. Going on an 1800 calorie a day diet is not going to do anything good for him. This is almost common sense. Im shocked that a member with as much information would dispence such hogwash.

We are looking for members to go on 1800 calorie a day diet. Start a log, and watvh the lbs come off.

Look at op's photo. Enough said. Save the clen for latter.

Here's what you keep missing: we don't know the TDEE of the OP, which is ultimately what is needed before any numbers mean anything. Zilla provided a logical explanation as to why such a value works, and even provided real-world studies proving the science behind his statements.

There isn't a blanket number of calories to reduce, nor did anyone suggest such. The OP wants to lose weight; he didn't ask how to recomp, he didn't ask how to gain lbm in order to facilitate a more efficient fat reduction, just that he has fat to lose, and wants to run clen. I agree with you in that clen isn't needed, but not all of us share such goals in increasing lbm in order to do so. This is why I suggested ECA as an alternative as it's far easier on the body, and it will increase his passive caloric expenditure.

And lets not forget, it will do nothing for him long term. There is no quick solution for what op is after.

Hard work and a clean diet is all he needs. Save the clen for latter.

Now step away from the clen, forget the 1800 calorie a day diet, and pick up that barbell and get busy. I bet my life it will work for you.

Again, this was never the topic of debate. The VAST majority of folks on here COMPLETELY agree with you in that taking a thermogenic is NOT the long-term solution, but that's not what was being asked.

I personally am terrified of losing lbm on a cut, and it took some serious debates for me to actually listen to the advice given, and how a larger caloric deficit IS feasible - albeit in my case, I am in it for the long-term, so I have a modified approach involving AAS and other hormones in order to optimize my efforts.

I do want to point out that the first two guys to mention pudding are no longer with us as they too were basing their advice solely on personal experiences, which frankly doesn't apply to everyone. I can tell you however that while I don't dip down quite that low, I'm currently on a 2,200 calorie deficit, and am losing a very miniscule amount of lean mass.

Anyhoo, I think you do make a great contribution to the community - but should have an open mind. I know I've learned a ridiculous amount of information from guys like Zilla, and I think you can too.