HCG in PCT

[cr0n1x]

Hey guys,

I got my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) too late to run in during my cycle (currently wk10 tren + test). What would be the best protocol for my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during PCT? PCT is gonna be nolva + aromasin.

 

[Four1Thr33]

Hcg is used BEFORE pct not
Durring. And it's called a blast phase. U want to run it 500-1000IU Dailey or 2000 eod max untill 3 days bore u start pct. but it's most effective when yiur test levels are low.

So u can wait a week after test ends. Then run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) two weeks then start pct

 

[MuscleAddiction]

How long is your cycle in its entirety? How much Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) did you order? Do you currently have it?

If you have it now, you typically want to start it 10 days prior to your first PCT dose...500 iu ED for 10 days = 5000 iu, so hopefully you have that. Secondly, you need to improve your PCT bro...when you take a SERM, especailly one that really isn't the greatest anymore (Nolva) with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), it weakens the effect of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI).

I would pick up some Clomid now and run it 50/25/25/12.5 mg, grab some Post Cycle/ Unleashed, and Forma Stanzol and you will be good to go with your Clomid. I would not use Nolva bro. Just to play it safe I would grab some Caber/Prami as well.

Next time do better homework on your PCT and cycle support...as these are the two most important aspects to any cycle...and Tren for the record is for advanced users.

Always run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) at 500 iu per week and HCGenerate at 2capsules a day throughout cycle and then run your PCT. This helps minimize testicular shutdown which helps with an stronger recovery during PCT.

Good luck bro!

 

[I-Omega]

Hcg is used BEFORE pct not
Durring. And it's called a blast phase. U want to run it 500-1000IU Dailey or 2000 eod max untill 3 days bore u start pct. but it's most effective when yiur test levels are low.

So u can wait a week after test ends. Then run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) two weeks then start pct

Agreed. good advice right there.

 

[cr0n1x]

How long is your cycle in its entirety? How much Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) did you order? Do you currently have it?

If you have it now, you typically want to start it 10 days prior to your first PCT dose...500 iu ED for 10 days = 5000 iu, so hopefully you have that. Secondly, you need to improve your PCT bro...when you take a SERM, especailly one that really isn't the greatest anymore (Nolva) with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), it weakens the effect of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI).

I would pick up some Clomid now and run it 50/25/25/12.5 mg, grab some Post Cycle/ Unleashed, and Forma Stanzol and you will be good to go with your Clomid. I would not use Nolva bro. Just to play it safe I would grab some Caber/Prami as well.

Next time do better homework on your PCT and cycle support...as these are the two most important aspects to any cycle...and Tren for the record is for advanced users.

Always run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) at 500 iu per week and HCGenerate at 2capsules a day throughout cycle and then run your PCT. This helps minimize testicular shutdown which helps with an stronger recovery during PCT.

Good luck bro!

Thanks. I was going to run the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during my cycle, just got it way too late. Ive got plenty tho.

 

[foodandliquor]

Hcg is used BEFORE post cycle therapy (pct) not
Durring. And it's called a blast phase. U want to run it 500-1000IU Dailey or 2000 eod max untill 3 days bore u start post cycle therapy (pct). but it's most effective when yiur test levels are low.

So u can wait a week after test ends. Then run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) two weeks then start post cycle therapy (pct)

Is 500-1000IU daily enough for a blast? I remember Cashout recommended 2000IU eod for 3 weeks I think. If I run 10 weeks of test prop at 500mg/wk, do you think 750IU every day for 2 weeks is sufficient for a blast?

 

[UserAt204]

Everyone is different. But

I would agree that you want to use 500-1500 iu daily for 10 days. If you look at many of the studies, it reaches a point where taking more does nothing to help. 10 days at high doses will not cause any harm but can elevate estro. You should supplement with NAC while using HCG.

So I would take nothing for a week after the cycle if using enanthate or cyp, and 3-5 days if prop, then use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 500-1500 iu a day for 10 days, 600mg a day NAC, plus aromisin.

After the 10 days, wait 3-4 days then start either Torem (which I prefer) or clomid. These two work in the same way so either is fine but I find that Torem works very well for me without any sides. Then you can add nolva to either one, nolva works in a different way than the other two. Continue with your aromisin.

Some ai's are effected by serms, but aromisin is not, plus it increases igf levels. I would run aromisin at 6.25-12.5 daily unless you have high estro or need more to manage estro. Anything over 500iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will elevate estro.

NAC is an excellent supplement, antioxidant, helps the liver, protects cells from damage. I like to add igf lr3 into post cycle therapy (pct) as well. It will help retain gains, and possibly help to shuttle nutrients. Lots of bcaa's and eaa's, protien, glutamine, and creatine.

And you want a minimum of 14 days from your last T inject until you start serms with a long ester, 3 weeks is probably better

 

[foodandliquor]

^ Do you do an Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) cruise during your cycle? I've seen some conflicting arguments where some people swear by 500iu/wk during the cycle, and some say it doesn't do anything and that the blast is way more important.

 

[UserAt204]

Yes I use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) the entire time I'm on cycle. People claim it won't make your post cycle therapy (pct) more effective. That's fine if it doesnt but it's not the point.

Hcg during the cycle is to help maintain "some" function of lydegs and other sex hormones such as pregnenolone and DHEA. These help to keep you feeling more normal late in your cycles. This is part of the reason TRT/HRT patients use hcg, to help regulate other hormones, but IMO it also helps to an easier recovery because part of recovery includes the testes returning to normal size and function, they aren't going to function normally without returning to a normal size. So even if it's only a normal size of testes by the start of the blast and post cycle therapy (pct), you are one step closer to recovery.

Every person is different. I ran cycles years ago with no Aromatase inhibitor (AI), hcg, or post cycle therapy (pct). They just weren't available. Now I wouldn't go without. But keep Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) doses low during the cycle. 250-300iu max. Most people should maintain most of the size, some function, and regulationof other sex hormones on that dose. Two times a week should be enough. If it's not enough and you start to really atrophy, don't increase the doses, instead add another day at 250-300 iu. So M/Tr or M/W/F if needed. I also run NAC the entire time because it promotes glutathione, which has been shown to help protect the lydeg cells from damage from Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use, and cells in general from it's antioxidant abilities.

Then I blast when coming off. Again all people are different, but I know guys who begin to feel a hormonal crash within a week or two of their last inject, really you should still have fairly high T levels but it happens. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) can help prevent that and smooth out the transition from on cycle to post cycle therapy (pct). Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will be cleared in 3-4 days so you can start your seem after 3-4 days, T levels may still be elevated from the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) but it's going to be on the decline and you want to get serms going and forcing normal function before T completely bottoms out. The other issue is estro can be high from the cycle, increase from the hcg, and we don't want estro higher than T levels so an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) at the lowest effective dose should be used also.

 

[foodandliquor]

I've read that testes size is not indicative of test production. The-Det-Oak, who started the Standard PCTs sticky, said that "Testicle size is a poor indicator of function, need blood tests to know if you have recovered."

And regarding Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle, here is what Cashout says (he advocates no cruise, just blast).

"If anyone needs more support for my position on this, go ask all the Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) that use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) weekly what their LH and FSH number look like.

They are taking only a couple of hundred mgs of test a week and their LH and FSH are still both <.2 or lower.

That means the pituitary is not fully functional even with the use of HCG. The testes may be somewhat functional and producing sperm from the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) applications but the pituitary is still shut down and will remain so as long as the feedback loop continues to detect the presence of high androgen levels."

Interesting how there's always conflicting theories.

 

[foodandliquor]

bump for more insight

 

[cr0n1x]

Secondly, you need to improve your PCT bro...when you take a SERM, especailly one that really isn't the greatest anymore (Nolva) with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), it weakens the effect of the Aromatase inhibitor (AI).

I would pick up some Clomid now and run it 50/25/25/12.5 mg, grab some Post Cycle/ Unleashed, and Forma Stanzol and you will be good to go with your Clomid. I would not use Nolva bro. Just to play it safe I would grab some Caber/Prami as well.

Next time do better homework on your PCT and cycle support...as these are the two most important aspects to any cycle...and Tren for the record is for advanced users.

Wanted to come back at this one. As I appreciate your input, I did do my homework on post cycle therapy (pct). Arofixen (nolva + aromasin) is used by many people where I'm from, and with succes.

Anthony Roberts also wrote a piece about this

Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninteresting…It’s a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? It’s a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because it’s not in high demand, and there’s never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. And I mean…lets face it: It’s awkward-sounding. Aromasin doesn’t have much of a ring to it, and exemestane is even worse. Arimidex has a bunch of cool abbreviations ("A-dex" or just ‘dex) and even Letrozole is just "Letro" to most people. Where’s the cool nickname for

Aromasin/exemestane? A-Sin? E-Stane? It just doesn’t work. It’s the black sheep of AIs. And why do we even need it when we have Letrozole, which is by far the most efficient Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for stopping aromatization (the process by which your body converts testosterone into estrogen)? Letro can reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater; clinically a dose as low as 100mcgs has been shown to provide maximum aromatase inhibition (2)!

So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly can’t be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.

That leaves us with Arimidex, which isn’t as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.

But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?

I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for post cycle therapy (PCT), since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.

Aromasin with Nolvadex

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which Aromatase inhibitor (AI) do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I Aromatase inhibitor (AI), the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Conclusion

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.

References:

1 Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.
2. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
3.[Clinical aspects of estrogen and bone metabolism] Clin Calcium. 2002 Sep;12(9):1246-51. Japanese.
4. Science, Vol 283, Issue 5406, 1277-1278 , 26 February 1999
5. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
6. Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7
7. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80
8. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91.
9. The Oncologist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 126–136, April 2004
10. Zilembo N., Noberasco C., Bajetta E., Martinetti A., Mariani L., Orefici S. Endocrinological and clinical evaluation of exemestane, a new steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Br. J. Cancer, 72: 1007-1012, 1995
11.Clinical Cancer Research Vol. 10, 1943-1948, March 2004
12.The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956
Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society

 

[cr0n1x]

Hcg is used BEFORE pct not
Durring. And it's called a blast phase. U want to run it 500-1000IU Dailey or 2000 eod max untill 3 days bore u start post cycle therapy (pct).

Miscommunication I guess. PCT = post cycle theraphy, since the HCG isn't being injected during the cycle, in my eyes it's post cycle therapy

 

[Rocky33]

Depends on what type of ester your test is. I would take 2 weeks off of all compounds and then blast with HCG for 10 days at around 500ius. Then after 10 days of HCG take a 4 day break from all compounds and begin your PCT.

 

[krol.saven]

Confusion & Contradicting Advice About HCG

I've been reading many forums about when to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and everyone seems to be divided between the following:

Take Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle and stop a week before PCT
Start taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) a couple of weeks before end of cycle and increase dose during PCT
Take Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) only during PCT
Take Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) only during "waiting period" between cycle and PCT

Which advice should I follow? Also, pardon if this is a newbie question but if I'm taking a testosterone enanthate & propionate mix with a relatively short half life (about a week) I can't exactly take nothing a week after my cycle, then take HCG, then wait another week, then start post cycle therapy (pct) as some have suggested. With my cycle I have post cycle therapy (pct) planned a week after the last injection of testosterone. I'm confused about dosing for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as well. Lots of varying information : /

 

[Repo]

With a quick glacé at this thread here's my best advise...

USER - knows his shit - you can bank on his advise!

Also - I would recommend reading the thread by THE-DET-OAK within the "STICKY" section at the top of this page...

I've followed DET's advice on hCG to the T with VERY good results ... "very good!"

I have also followed USER's advise on other topics - and have always had the best possible results - I forget how close they are on hCG - and am not in a position to give you a fair comparison...

Just put together a solid plan with hCG!

Repo

 

[dr.triceps]

Do you guys suggest using a small dose of nolva (10mg ed) during a 10 day Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast (500 iu/day)?

A pretty knowledgeable vet in another forum said:

500ius/ED for 14 days + Aromasin 10mg/EOD + Tamoxifen 10mg/ED.

Then Tamox 20mg/ED for 5-6 weeks with Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED first 7 days).

wk 1-2 Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 500ius/ED
wk 1-3 Aromasin 10mg/EOD
wk 1-2 Tamox 10mg/ED
wk 2-7 Tamox 20mg/ED
wk 2-7 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED first 7 days)

Im wondering if using nolva at 10 mg would be counterproductive during the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast. Many people say it helps prevent desensitization.