HCG:Latest thinking and recommendations?

[ready2explode]

Great posts lawnsaver Ulter we're going at it tomorrow...ur lucky...i got half way done with my post and my gf needs me dont worry its not gonna hurt one bit...

 

[ulter]

LawnS, I am not comparing the converted test to the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I am only saying this... that the reason for cycling is to grow, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) won't help you there. You want to encounter as little E as you can during a cycle. Adding E to your cycle merely to blow up your testes doesn't make sense. You are pouring fuel on the E fire and for what? You can use it post cycle and recover just the same. Like J steel is planning to do. And he'll be fine doing it.

Now as far as Swales credentials go, Dr Ramon Scruggs is MY doctor. If you don't know who he is then I'll post a couple links and you can read an interview with him from AE.
He has thousands of ATHLETES that he's given large doses of AS to over the last 10 years. My scripts are for 400mg/test and 400mg/deca if that gives you any idea. He has extensive medical records and bloodwork for all this patients. He knows and has seen more than Swale has or ever will see.
He does not recommend under any circumstances using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on a weekly basis at any dose. I have a script from him and it states "use 1000iu ED for ten days". And this is his recommendation for how to use HCG, every 8 weeks. Or to end a cycle.


r2e I am so worried now. How ever will I sleep tonight.

 

[goat_ass]

LawnS, I am not comparing the converted test to the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I am only saying this... that the reason for cycling is to grow, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) won't help you there. You want to encounter as little E as you can during a cycle. Adding E to your cycle merely to blow up your testes doesn't make sense. You are pouring fuel on the E fire and for what? You can use it post cycle and recover just the same. Like J steel is planning to do. And he'll be fine doing it.

Now as far as Swales credentials go, Dr Ramon Scruggs is MY doctor. If you don't know who he is then I'll post a couple links and you can read an interview with him from AE.
He has thousands of ATHLETES that he's given large doses of AS to over the last 10 years. My scripts are for 400mg/test and 400mg/deca if that gives you any idea. He has extensive medical records and bloodwork for all this patients. He knows and has seen more than Swale has or ever will see.
He does not recommend under any circumstances using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on a weekly basis at any dose. I have a script from him and it states "use 1000iu ED for ten days". And this is his recommendation for how to use HCG, every 8 weeks. Or to end a cycle.


r2e I am so worried now. How ever will I sleep tonight.

you said Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) doesn't make the testes produce test on a cycle, so how does it cause a raise in estrogen? i can see how any additional test can cause more estrogen, so that argument might make sense if it causes the testes to produce test and the additional estrogen *could* cause gyno. but that isn't really an argument. thats like saying everyone should take 250mg of test cycles instead of 500mg cycles because there will be less estrogen. the benefits of the extra 250 mg of test are worth it despite the estrogen, and you can combat it with anti e's. I agree that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) doesn't make you grow any, but it does help you keep your gains post cycle which is just as important.

I still dont see how Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) can cause estrogen to raise if you say it doesn't cause the testes to produce test. it would make them produce more off cycle, not sure about on cycle, but i doubt it will cause enough test to be released to give you problems with gyno.

 

[goat_ass]

I think you better reconize that this is not the "Conversation Forum" where you can display your ignorance at will.

Now, I never said I was an expert on everything, that's a fuckin' laugh in itself.

Now just another FYI, Ulter has probably been cycling for more years than you are old, and probably has forgotten more about the subject than you'll ever know !! But really, continue debating this, it's actually quite humerous....LOL !!

when do i ever display ignorance on the convo forum?? as for ulter forgetting more on the subject than i will never know i dont think thats correct since Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is a relatively new drug for Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) purposes. i think your the one being ignorant, oh ooops, i forgot that your a mod and everything you say is correct and everything i say is wrong.

btw, i am not taking your reccomendations of waiting another 20 years to do a cycle, im going to be starting one in a couple weeks and im leaning towards taking a gram of test and dbol. you should ban me for not listening to your advice.

 

[ulter]

Goat_ass Do you know where they get Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) from? I'll bet if I told you you wouldn't want to shoot it.

It doesn't help you keep your gains bro.

 

[goat_ass]

yeah, it develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to control her hormones. if it doesn't help you keep your gains then what is the purpose of taking it????? are you saying people shouldn't take hcg?

 

[ulter]

Nope, that's not where it comes from.

You aren't reading what I am writing.
Look, when you take Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on cycle it tricks you testes into thinking that LH has been produced and that makes them expand and get big and bouncy. This is a VERY good thing to do post cycle when they're small. Your recovery will be much easier and shorter. But this is not a good thing to be doing every week of your cycle.
Ok, Now it's way past your bedtime so gnite.

 

[goat_ass]

why would you want your testes to atrophy in the first place? so you dont think post cycle recovery would be easier/shorter, and more gains would be kept if you used Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at small doses during a cycle. you would just take it after your cycle and your nuts would just get "big and bouncy" right away after being small for 10 weeks?

and since you say im wrong about where it comes from, please tell me the correct answer so i will know.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

Ulter, I have to throw in the common sense flag and ask you a question. What will cause a bigger spike in estrogen? A single 500iu dose every 4 days or 1000ius ED for 10 days? I have to think the later would create more. Now...if I am not mistaken, estrogen is what we dont want when we are trying to restart our HPTA. So taking it at the end of a cycle will only prolong the process. All we want to do is revert any atophy that set in. Well I tried that and in one of my cycles I could revert the atrophy. My right nut has been pea size for over 2 years. So, why not prevent it? Taking that small dose will only do that. It wont raise test levels enough to increase gains, it wont increase estrogen in a way to cause gyno. Its a win, win choice.

Also, you keep pointing out how bad estrogen is. Estrogen is key to growth! We always want some circulating. We just have to find the point of comfort.

I know this is a somewhat radical practice, but so was drinking Winstrol (winny). I know you are old school and have a lot more experience in the Iron Game, but this practice works. It has worked for everyone I know who has taken my advice. No shrinkage, no gyno, only prevention of atophy and faster recovery because there is no need for revertion at the end of a cycle.

Again, why would we want the estrogen spike associated with 1000ius of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ed for 2 weeks at the end of a cycle when we want to get rid of it all so we can restart our HPTA? I dont! When I did take the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at the end, it took me weeks longer to recover.

I know of Dr. Scruggs very well and he is amazing, but to put the blinders on and not look at other possibilities is ignorant. Ulter, I mean no disrespect with that phrase, but you arent giving the practice a second thought.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

and since you say im wrong about where it comes from, please tell me the correct answer so i will know.

I didnt read your answer, but Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is produced from the urine of a pregnant woman.

 

[ulter]

Like I said last week when this thread started, I am glad to hear it works for YOU, I am not wishing ill on you but some day it won't be worth it to you when you find a painful pea under your nipple.
What you are calling common sense, isn't.
What difference does it make which one causes a bigger spike, it's the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) BTW but that's irrelevant, the whole point behind taking an anti e is to hold down E, right? So where is the common sense in adding more E back into your blood.
Your comfort zone changes cycle to cycle year after year.
No we don't want estrogen to restart the HPTA. Adding E is a byproduct of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) not the mechanism. That's why you should use it with nolva.

I listen to all ideas and all the experts on the boards not just Dr Scruggs. He and I argue a lot more that you and I argue.

Why is it that if I don't agree with someone, I am always the ignorant one? Or the one with blinders?

I am giving you the benefit of my years of experience and telling you what I have observed. You can take it or leave it, but at least I know I told you.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

The reason is that estrogen can be controled during a cycle as there is test in the system to counter the balance. At the end, we only have estrogen, which we are trying to control so that we have a chance to restart our HPTA. I dont think you are realizing the importance of SOME estrogen during a cycle for growth. It raises I-gf1, glycogen retention, etc. We dont want it all gone and if its is produced during a cycle, its not nearly as dangerous as post cycle. Can you at least agree with me there? This is the common sense issue I am talking about. Also, Ulter, I am not a spring chicken. I am 30+ years old and have at least 12 cycles under my belt spanning 8 years. It is not 25+ year, but I should be able to say I have experienced a lot of different things in the Iron Game. I have also been trained by the best. Huck, Nandi, Swale, Q, etc, etc , etc. Also HPTA therapy, Testicular atrophy prevention, cycling, Etc has changed dramatically over the past 5-7 years and some of us stick to our old school rules, because they have worked for you in the past. I am not saying 1000ius ED for 10 days doesnt work, but maybe there is a more productive and effective way to use a certain drug. And since I am sure you havent used this practice more than once in the past, I dont feel you can speak completely intellagently about the long term results. Also, if gyno appears 10-15 years after you start cycling using the same prevention for gyno as you did in the past, how can you specifically link it to the small amounts of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) you have taken to prevent testicular atrophy during your cycles? I would think it was the 1000's of mg of test or the large doses of d-bol, or the huge increases in I-gf1 I have produced during my cycles. I think Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is the least of our worries at the doses I am speaking about!

 

[ulter]

I realise the importance of some E. There is plenty of E while your on cycle. I posted that already. This isn't going anywhere bro. Just take your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) like you want to. It won't change my life one bit.
I wasn't questioning or attacking your experience or age here. I was merely pointing out that my posts are based on my experience and observations. Take it easy bro. No one is trying to take your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) away.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

I realise the importance of some E. There is plenty of E while your on cycle. I posted that already. This isn't going anywhere bro. Just take your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) like you want to. It won't change my life one bit.
I wasn't questioning or attacking your experience or age here. I was merely pointing out that my posts are based on my experience and observations. Take it easy bro. No one is trying to take your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) away.

Whoa, I'm not taking anything personal. Its just a good debate. I'm not trying to tell you your way isnt right. I am just trying to get you to admit that maybe there is another productive way. And it doesnt just work for me, it works for many who have been using it. Also admit that you dont have the experience in this particular practice to say whether or not it works or not. You are fully experienced in every aspect of the Iron Game, but this practice is to new for any of us to speculate on the long term effects and estrogen. We can all have our thoughts, but until we can fully understand the role of estrogen ands what causes gyno, we cant put the weight of the world on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Gyno is can be caused by a lot of different things than estrogen.

Ulter, all is cool. I am sure both of our ways are effective, it just an individual thing. If all aspects of the Iron Game, we have to find out what works for us through trial an error.

 

[ulter]

XXXOOO

 

[ready2explode]

Everything you argue with, ulter, is rediculous. Prevention of testicular atrophy is the best way to go. A low dose of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin ( Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ) will not cause a large spike in estrogen, therfore gyno is a non-issue. I dont have the time, nor the patience today to argue. Ulter is rite, everyone just do what they want. But before you forget this thread, read this...and while reading it, please note that the smaller divided doses elevated T levels to TWICE what a single high dose of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin ( Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ) did, that the E2 peak was minimal, and that the E2/T ratio only "marginally" increased:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Feb;58(2):327-31

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

 

[SWALE]

There are a few misconceptions in this thread that should be explored more fully.

HCG absolutely COULD induce gyno. It is a well-known side effect. However, the amount of testosterone production it produces DURING THE CYCLE (clearing up another misconception posted in this thread) is very small compared to the gram of testosterone you are injecting, so the estrogen which may subsequently produced is inconsequential in comparison.

There is an absolute limit to how much test Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) could induce, no matter how much you take.

You can drive your estrogen production to virtually nondetectable levels with Arimidex. I've got the labs to prove it.

The HPTA recovers LH production rather quickly. The rate limiting step in endogenous production (I am commenting on the result of LH, not HCG) is the ability of the atrophied testicles to respond to it. Therefore HCG's ability to maintain the testes throughout the cycle is invaluable.

If you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle it will suppress your HPTA by virtue of the testosterone production it induces. There simply is no way around that. It is a medical fact. However, if a guy is suffering blockage at the rate-liniting step in endogenous testosterone production, there ARE times when some Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle may, overall, speed things up. But that would be because the guy screwed up badly during his cycle, and didn't use it.

IMPO, no one should ever use more than 1000IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at a time.

HCG is our friend! As time goes on I am more and more impressed by it. I am troubled that anyone would ban its very name.

Estrogen is indeed important. God gave men estrogen for a reason. But when it goes to low--or too high--bad things happen. Remember, too, that gyno can be induced by rapidly accelerating serum testosterone levels, even when they are within physiological range. This is why pubescent boys can get gyno. Also, I do not buy into the theory that as long as the T/E ratio is within normal range, there is not too much estrogen. The absolute concentration of estrogen is important, too. It's the androgen we want to increase, right?

This is all just common sense, backed up by well-proven knowledge of Biochemistry, Physiology and Medicine. There are going to be a lot of people who are sick later in life NEEDLESSLY, because they either did not learn these simple facts, or simply refused to implement them.

 

[ulter]

You lost me at "[Arimidex brings E levels to] virtually nondetectable levels". That's absurd unless you're talking about women. When I read it I had to do a double take.

You have no idea how much 500iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will raise the E levels in a cycling male. I say that because the response is so varied from man to man there is no way you COULD know.

That last paragraph doesn't apply to your method in any way.


r2e, You're a very excitable boy so maybe when you were quoting me as saying "large" spike of E you were just thinking I said that, because you certainly didn't read that.
Let me tell you what's ridiculous...The 20 year old study you posted with healthy non-cycling men.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

I think this was a great thread! Swale, thanks for giving your thoughts on this subject.

The bottom line is sometimes peoples thinking can not be swayed. Thats fine. I think we all will do what works best for us.This new Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) practice in invaluable to me. I have never recovered better. This might not be true for all. Although, we do have a doctor in our midst who prescibes this practice to many of his clients/patients with tremendous results.

A little background...Swale and I had a heated debate the mirrors this thread on another board. He was able to change my point of view and I have nothing but thanks for his knowledge!

 

[SWALE]

We know about how much testosterone Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) can induce--and it is limited. Therefore, by comparison, serum T levels from Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) which are, for instance, five times physiological range, the estrogen aromatized from said HCH-induced is of no consequence.

I have labs which show VERY low single digit estradiol levels--within margin of error, negligible.

To those who understand the aforementioned subjects, my last paragraph makes perfect sense.