HCG:Latest thinking and recommendations?
- Thread starter mkp
- Start date
That's just about it. However, the dosing is just a suggestion. I have Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) patients who get by just fine on 250IU, just as some need to bump it up to 750 or even 10000IU. At 1000Iu, I have them put a day's spacing in the middle. Although judging the dosing is quite subjective (by impression of testicular size), EVERYONE who has tried it so far reports they are happy with the results. It's either working very well, or guys are just being kind. LOL.
ready2explode
New member
I do not hide the fact that I am young. I share many traits of a puppy - easily excited, energetic, full of love and life. My mind is always open, willing to listen and learn...my ideas are always expanding and changing...constantly evolving.ulter said:
You, ulter, are a block - too set in your own ways to open your mind enough to change. You've lost your excitement, will to learn.
Maybe you should read this quote from the study again, "The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. " Therefore, that "spike" that you speak of is BULLSHIT in smaller divided doses.
And last, the way Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) affect men will not change in 20 years. The study's age has no relevence here. Last, it doesn't matter if men are cycle steroids or not, the study showed lowered doses led to higher T levels, no E2 peak, and only a marginal increase in E2/T levels. The idea to use 1000ius ED for 10 days may very well work, but it is not the best method in which to use hcg.
Ofcourse, this is all ignoring the fact that MOST users are on anti-e's and anti-aromatases which would make ur arguement null.
r2e, You're an idiot. I can't even address this lunacy that you post.
I know this is going to come as a shock to everyone but this method is not Swales and it's certainly not new. It was discarded several years ago because too many guys were getting E related sides from it. Guys that they didn't get those sides without it. Admittedly, these guys were all vets with several cycles under their belts. E2, The Ranger, Big Pappa Pump and most of the guys who were on the boards in 1999 will attest to this. But hey do it all over again. What the hell, maybe it's this years en vouge cycling ancillary.
I know this is going to come as a shock to everyone but this method is not Swales and it's certainly not new. It was discarded several years ago because too many guys were getting E related sides from it. Guys that they didn't get those sides without it. Admittedly, these guys were all vets with several cycles under their belts. E2, The Ranger, Big Pappa Pump and most of the guys who were on the boards in 1999 will attest to this. But hey do it all over again. What the hell, maybe it's this years en vouge cycling ancillary.
I don't believe anyone else has ever advocated SMALL doses of HCG, every single week, right from the start. EVERY SINGLE ONE of the guys who have tried it have liked it, with absolutely no E problems. It simply is not there. This system is logical, reasonable, and right.
But hey, no one is forcing you to do it.
But hey, no one is forcing you to do it.
"I don't believe anyone else has ever advocated SMALL doses of HCG"
You're kidding right?
Another problem that I hadn't thought of is the fact that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) works in the testes and increases E from there. There is no evidence that arimidex works in the testes.
You're kidding right?
Another problem that I hadn't thought of is the fact that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) works in the testes and increases E from there. There is no evidence that arimidex works in the testes.
Find me a post from waaaay back which advocates exactly the same protocol. Actually put up some evidence to back up what you claim. This would be much more honest than copying and pasting only a portion of the statement I made.
It doesn't matter how much estrogen is produced from small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Think about it. You are producing, with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulation in a completely inhibited system, perhaps the bottom half of normal range (and only doing it for a few days), MAYBE. Think about this in terms of what the system is used to seeing, when the system is not being suppressed, and operating normally at physiological concentrations. On the other hand, exogenous testosterone levels are, what, five times the top of normal range while on cycle? So you want to get all worked up about a piddly (medical phrasology) little bit of estrogen?
HCG at 3000IU has been shown to increase aromatase activity by ten-fold. However, this does not happen at the small doses we advocate.
Once again, and once again, and once again: EVERYONE who has tried this protocol likes it.
It doesn't matter how much estrogen is produced from small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Think about it. You are producing, with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulation in a completely inhibited system, perhaps the bottom half of normal range (and only doing it for a few days), MAYBE. Think about this in terms of what the system is used to seeing, when the system is not being suppressed, and operating normally at physiological concentrations. On the other hand, exogenous testosterone levels are, what, five times the top of normal range while on cycle? So you want to get all worked up about a piddly (medical phrasology) little bit of estrogen?
HCG at 3000IU has been shown to increase aromatase activity by ten-fold. However, this does not happen at the small doses we advocate.
Once again, and once again, and once again: EVERYONE who has tried this protocol likes it.
"Find me a post from waaaay back which advocates exactly the same protocol. Actually put up some eveidence of what you say."
That would be a pretty good trick. Those posts have been gone for almost 3 years. But you're welcome to ask E2 about it. Well maybe not since you don't like that he banned Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) from being posted.
That would be a pretty good trick. Those posts have been gone for almost 3 years. But you're welcome to ask E2 about it. Well maybe not since you don't like that he banned Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) from being posted.
LAWNSAVER
New member
Wow! LEt it go!
Its personal preference. What I am glad is we have a doctor who actually knows something about gear and is willing to address the issues and not turn away.
Ulter, I respect all the guys you mentioned. I have read a lot of there posts. I have been learning for years. I never remember this practice being mentioned ever. I have 6000+ posts on EF, and many other posts on about 10 different boards and I cant remember anything like this being advocated.
Either way, no one is trying to force anything on anyone. This thread is becoming personal and I wont let it happen. Keep the debate going with info to back our statements. Lets not bark back and forth with each other!
Its personal preference. What I am glad is we have a doctor who actually knows something about gear and is willing to address the issues and not turn away.
Ulter, I respect all the guys you mentioned. I have read a lot of there posts. I have been learning for years. I never remember this practice being mentioned ever. I have 6000+ posts on EF, and many other posts on about 10 different boards and I cant remember anything like this being advocated.
Either way, no one is trying to force anything on anyone. This thread is becoming personal and I wont let it happen. Keep the debate going with info to back our statements. Lets not bark back and forth with each other!
" What I am glad is we have a doctor who actually knows something about gear and is willing to address the issues and not turn away."
I am not against the idea of a doctor on the boards bro.
You probably don't know this but I had Dr Scruggs on his very own forum called Ask Dr Scruggs on AF. Until Animal came on and was a total ass to him and he decided he had better things to do.
BTW - I had given it up. Until Swale jumped in. Then I felt compelled.
I am not against the idea of a doctor on the boards bro.
You probably don't know this but I had Dr Scruggs on his very own forum called Ask Dr Scruggs on AF. Until Animal came on and was a total ass to him and he decided he had better things to do.
BTW - I had given it up. Until Swale jumped in. Then I felt compelled.
Well, that would certainly shed some light on why it is you have gone to such ridiculous lengths to try to attack me, another Internet Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) provider and servant of the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) community.
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That is interesting. I have seen SWALE's method of using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) dicussed on a more than one board for a couple months and until now, I don't recall anyone mentioning that it has been tried in the past and failed. Granted, it may have been discussed and I may have just missed it. I have no personal experience as to whether or not this protocol works with AAS, but I can say that it has been working fine for with HRT.
hhajdo
Community Veteran
When your LH decreases to very low levels while on AS, Leydig cell LH receptor downregulates, & Leydig cell volume decreases which causes a decrease of testosterone-secreting capacity....
If you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) while on you will maintain Leydig cell volume & testosterone-secreting capacity...
Estrogen increase is only an issue when higher dosages are used since Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulates testicular aromatase, that's why low dosages (300-500 IU) are recommended since they'll give you a better test/estradiol ratio...
Aromatase inhibitors do affect testicular aromatase & can prevent estradiol increase...
In this abstract 3000 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) was used, fourfold increase of estradiol was noticed while test was only doubled...
A study in which several consecutive Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) injections were administered was posted earlier (The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased)..
Endocrinol Jpn 1975 Aug;22(4):287-96 Related Articles, Links
Plasma estradiol concentrations and effect of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on plasma estradiol and testosterone in normal subjects and patients with endocrine disorders
...In the study of stimulation with human chorionic gonadotropin ( Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ), 3,000 IU daily for three days in ten normal men, the peripheral concentrations of estradiol showed maximum and fourfold increases 24 hours after the 1st injection of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin ( Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ). The testosterone levels, on the other hand, increased stepwise and reached a maximum of about two times preinjection levels 24 hours after the 3rd injection.
-----------------------------------
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + aromatase inhibitor:
A study on testicular aromatase activity--spermatogenic damage in high testicular E2 models of rat]
Akiyama H.
Department of Urology, Okayama University Medical School.
(BACKGROUND): In order to study the influence of testicular estrogen concentration on spermatogenesis, we conducted the following experiments. (METHODS): Eight-week-old male Sprague-Dawley rats were used and two kinds of experiments were prepared. In experiment one (intraperitoneal injection), five groups were set up: control (saline solution), estradiol (E2), human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), aromatase inhibitor (A.I.) and hCG+A.I. group. In experiment two (intratesticular injection), two groups were set up: control (saline solution) and E2 microcrystal suspension (Emcs) group. The experimental period was 28 days. At sacrifice, we evaluated the concentrations of serum testosterone (T) and E2, testicular T and E2, testicular aromatase activity and the seminiferous tubular diameter. (RESULTS): Exp. 1: In the hCG group, the rate of testicular aromatase activity and testicular E2 level were higher and the diameter of seminiferous tubules was smaller than in the control group. However, these changes were not observed in the hCG+A.I. group. Exp. 2: In the Emcs group, testicular E2 level showed an increase without elevation of serum E2 level, and the diameter of seminiferous tubules was atrophic. (CONCLUSION): It was suggested that the increase of the rate of testicular aromatase activity and the following elevation of testicular E2 level is possibly one of the causes of male infertility.
---------------------------------
T-E implant + LH treatment maintains the capacity of testes to secrete testosterone...
Effect of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and testosterone secretion.
Ewing LL, Wing TY, Cochran RC, Kromann N, Zirkin BR.
Hypophysectomy or sc implantation of testosterone-estradiol 17 beta (T-E) filled polydimethylsiloxane capsules for 5 days caused a dramatic reduction in testosterone secretion when testes subsequently were perfused in vitro. The diminution in testosterone-secreting capacity of testes from T-E treated rats was coupled closely with reductions in the membrane surface areas of Leydig cell cytoplasmic organelles, particularly those of the smooth endoplasmic reticulum. Simultaneous treatment of T-E implanted rats with LH (12 micrograms/day), but not with FSH, PRL, TSH, or GH, maintained both the Leydig-cell cytoplasmic membranes and the capacity of testes to secrete testosterone in vitro. Testosterone secretion by testes from hypophysectomized rats treated simultaneously with T-E plus LH was identical to that in control rats. Therefore, T-E did not inhibit directly the Leydig cell steroidogenic apparatus...
If you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) while on you will maintain Leydig cell volume & testosterone-secreting capacity...
Estrogen increase is only an issue when higher dosages are used since Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulates testicular aromatase, that's why low dosages (300-500 IU) are recommended since they'll give you a better test/estradiol ratio...
Aromatase inhibitors do affect testicular aromatase & can prevent estradiol increase...
In this abstract 3000 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) was used, fourfold increase of estradiol was noticed while test was only doubled...
A study in which several consecutive Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) injections were administered was posted earlier (The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased)..
Endocrinol Jpn 1975 Aug;22(4):287-96 Related Articles, Links
Plasma estradiol concentrations and effect of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on plasma estradiol and testosterone in normal subjects and patients with endocrine disorders
...In the study of stimulation with human chorionic gonadotropin ( Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ), 3,000 IU daily for three days in ten normal men, the peripheral concentrations of estradiol showed maximum and fourfold increases 24 hours after the 1st injection of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin ( Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ). The testosterone levels, on the other hand, increased stepwise and reached a maximum of about two times preinjection levels 24 hours after the 3rd injection.
-----------------------------------
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + aromatase inhibitor:
A study on testicular aromatase activity--spermatogenic damage in high testicular E2 models of rat]
Akiyama H.
Department of Urology, Okayama University Medical School.
(BACKGROUND): In order to study the influence of testicular estrogen concentration on spermatogenesis, we conducted the following experiments. (METHODS): Eight-week-old male Sprague-Dawley rats were used and two kinds of experiments were prepared. In experiment one (intraperitoneal injection), five groups were set up: control (saline solution), estradiol (E2), human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), aromatase inhibitor (A.I.) and hCG+A.I. group. In experiment two (intratesticular injection), two groups were set up: control (saline solution) and E2 microcrystal suspension (Emcs) group. The experimental period was 28 days. At sacrifice, we evaluated the concentrations of serum testosterone (T) and E2, testicular T and E2, testicular aromatase activity and the seminiferous tubular diameter. (RESULTS): Exp. 1: In the hCG group, the rate of testicular aromatase activity and testicular E2 level were higher and the diameter of seminiferous tubules was smaller than in the control group. However, these changes were not observed in the hCG+A.I. group. Exp. 2: In the Emcs group, testicular E2 level showed an increase without elevation of serum E2 level, and the diameter of seminiferous tubules was atrophic. (CONCLUSION): It was suggested that the increase of the rate of testicular aromatase activity and the following elevation of testicular E2 level is possibly one of the causes of male infertility.
---------------------------------
T-E implant + LH treatment maintains the capacity of testes to secrete testosterone...
Effect of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and testosterone secretion.
Ewing LL, Wing TY, Cochran RC, Kromann N, Zirkin BR.
Hypophysectomy or sc implantation of testosterone-estradiol 17 beta (T-E) filled polydimethylsiloxane capsules for 5 days caused a dramatic reduction in testosterone secretion when testes subsequently were perfused in vitro. The diminution in testosterone-secreting capacity of testes from T-E treated rats was coupled closely with reductions in the membrane surface areas of Leydig cell cytoplasmic organelles, particularly those of the smooth endoplasmic reticulum. Simultaneous treatment of T-E implanted rats with LH (12 micrograms/day), but not with FSH, PRL, TSH, or GH, maintained both the Leydig-cell cytoplasmic membranes and the capacity of testes to secrete testosterone in vitro. Testosterone secretion by testes from hypophysectomized rats treated simultaneously with T-E plus LH was identical to that in control rats. Therefore, T-E did not inhibit directly the Leydig cell steroidogenic apparatus...
hhajdo
Community Veteran
ulter said:
I'm not sure if I've seen any, I'll do a search...
I don't think we need to worry much about testicular aromatase as long as low doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) like 500 IUs are used, since it seems that there's little impact on test/estradiol ratio at low doses... which means that estradiol increase in that case is primarily caused by increased substrate (test)...
ready2explode
New member
It seems to me that you cant address any of the lunacy posted. I think you've shown who is the real idiot.ulter said:
Paulie R
New member
I couldn't keep quiet any longer. Since when is " Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) a relativly new drug for Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) puropses"?!! I did my first Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) kit 20 years ago! I get great results from Sofa's method. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is not readliy available in my neck of the woods, I wish it was. It gives me a good boost mid cycle and I don't really need it post cycle.
LAWNSAVER
New member
Paulie R said:
No one said Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is new. The practice of taking small doses throughout a cycle to prevent testicular atrophy is the new aspect we are talking about. Taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle will have a negetive effect since the administration of the drug suppresses our natural test levels.
Now taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) half way through a cycle works to revert atrophy in most cases, sometimes it wont revert the damage. This is why we now recomend small doses throughtout the cycle which will prevent any atrophy from setting in. Preventing the atrophy is much more effective than reverting it.
This thread was basically a debate of the fact that estrogen levels would raise so much as to result in gyno. It is felt by all except Ulter that the raise in estrogen would be a non issue.
