im on my first tren A cycle about 3 weeks in. im taking 420mg of tren, 200mg test c (trt) and .5mg prami a day along with b6. as soon as u started the tren i bloated and nipples were burning. i was using adex but after the burning nips i swicthed to letro and have been fine ever since. i have read that progesterone is a precursor to estrogen. so this must be why i have to use letro with the tren? am i right? the tren doesnt armotize but it must raise estrogen levels in body threw progesterone right?
is this true about Tren?
- Thread starter tkasch30
- Start date
sadpanda
New member
"borrowed from HeavyIron, a great resource
Neoadjuvant therapy of endometrial cancer with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole: endocrine and clinical effects.
Berstein L, Maximov S, Gershfeld E, Meshkova I, Gamajunova V, Tsyrlina E, Larionov A, Kovalevskij A, Vasilyev D.
Laboratory Oncoendocrinology, N.N. Petrov Research Institute of Oncology, St. Petersburg 197758, Russia. levmb@endocrin.spb.ru
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the short-term hormonal and clinical effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole (femara) in patients with endometrial cancer. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Ten previously untreated, post-menopausal patients (mean age 59 years) with endometrial cancer, predominantly stage I disease, received letrozole 2.5mg per day for 14 days before surgery. Clinical, sonographic, morphologic, cytologic, and hormonal-metabolic parameters (blood estradiol, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), glucose, and cholesterol by radioimmunoassay, enzyme immune assay, or enzyme-colorimetric methods; tumor progesterone receptors by ligand-binding assay; and aromatase activity by 3H-water release assay) were evaluated before and after treatment. RESULTS: Treatment was well-tolerated in all patients. In two patients, pain relief in the lower part of the belly and/or decrease in intensity of uterine discharge was reported. In the three cases, substantial decreases in endometrial M-echo (ultrasound) signal were noted; the mean value of this parameter after treatment was 31.1% lower than before treatment. Blood estradiol concentration decreased by an average of 37.8% after letrozole therapy, and tumor progesterone receptor levels and aromatase activity decreased by 34.4 and 17.5%, respectively. Treatment with letrozole did not influence surgery. CONCLUSIONS: These data show that short-term treatment with letrozole in the neoadjuvant setting resulted in some positive clinical changes. Longer-term and larger-scale trials of neoadjuvant letrozole in endometrial cancer are warranted.
PMID: 12381480 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"
that being said, control your estrogen and supplement with b6 and you should be fine with a low dose.
my guess is your prami is bunk.
Neoadjuvant therapy of endometrial cancer with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole: endocrine and clinical effects.
Berstein L, Maximov S, Gershfeld E, Meshkova I, Gamajunova V, Tsyrlina E, Larionov A, Kovalevskij A, Vasilyev D.
Laboratory Oncoendocrinology, N.N. Petrov Research Institute of Oncology, St. Petersburg 197758, Russia. levmb@endocrin.spb.ru
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the short-term hormonal and clinical effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole (femara) in patients with endometrial cancer. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Ten previously untreated, post-menopausal patients (mean age 59 years) with endometrial cancer, predominantly stage I disease, received letrozole 2.5mg per day for 14 days before surgery. Clinical, sonographic, morphologic, cytologic, and hormonal-metabolic parameters (blood estradiol, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), glucose, and cholesterol by radioimmunoassay, enzyme immune assay, or enzyme-colorimetric methods; tumor progesterone receptors by ligand-binding assay; and aromatase activity by 3H-water release assay) were evaluated before and after treatment. RESULTS: Treatment was well-tolerated in all patients. In two patients, pain relief in the lower part of the belly and/or decrease in intensity of uterine discharge was reported. In the three cases, substantial decreases in endometrial M-echo (ultrasound) signal were noted; the mean value of this parameter after treatment was 31.1% lower than before treatment. Blood estradiol concentration decreased by an average of 37.8% after letrozole therapy, and tumor progesterone receptor levels and aromatase activity decreased by 34.4 and 17.5%, respectively. Treatment with letrozole did not influence surgery. CONCLUSIONS: These data show that short-term treatment with letrozole in the neoadjuvant setting resulted in some positive clinical changes. Longer-term and larger-scale trials of neoadjuvant letrozole in endometrial cancer are warranted.
PMID: 12381480 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"
that being said, control your estrogen and supplement with b6 and you should be fine with a low dose.
my guess is your prami is bunk.
Prolactin is what induces lactation not "gyno". Gyno is ductal hyperplasia which is caused by estrogen or estrogen dominance in relation to progesterone and the ducts are what Hold the milk. Progesterone can be a factor but not the root cause. Too much progesterone will cause alveolar hyperplasia and the alveoli secrete the milk. Progesterone is one thing that can help "tip" the scales to the onset of gyno but so are GH and IGF-1. Without these precursors in minimal quantities gyno is very unlikely to happen. Prolactin serum levels are raised by 19-noes such as tren and prolactin is what causes milk to start forming/secreting from the breast. Caber and prami are dopamine agonists which will reduce prolactin and lactation but will not do much for estrogen or progesterone if at all.
GREAT post! There is so much misinformation out there about prolactin and gyno!
Letro is much better at controlling estrogen than adex which is why it is working better for you. I would get labs done to find out if your dosing of letro and prami is working. Its possible the prami is bunk and labs will tell you imediately.
halfwit
I like turtles.
I'd still get another dopamine agonist. High prolactin can do far more things to you than just give you lactating titties. Having a high sex drive with a sponge-dick sucks really bad.
Nightmare007
New member
Get some caber from rui
I know you always have some sort of study to back up your claims lol. Do you mind posting it here if you are the time and can find it?
You need actual blood work to know for sure. You're guessing on way too many fronts to have any sort of accurate diagnosis here. Progesterone and estrogen are usually inversely related. When one goes up the other down and vice versa. Progesterone itself doesn't cause gyno but an imbalance between estrogen: progesterone could (estrogen dominance). Bottom line is a blood test will accurately tell you which hormone is out of sync and needs to be controlled
heavyiron
Community Veteran
No problem brother. I'm not being dogmatic since we have reports of Tren users lactating but I honestly think Caber and Prami are overused in our community. Anyway, as you know only labs can conclusively confirm high Prolactin.
Res Vet Sci. 1981 Jan;30(1):7-13.
Growth hormone, insulin, prolactin and total thyroxine in the plasma of sheep implanted with the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate alone or with oestradiol.
Donaldson IA, Hart IC, Heitzman RJ.
Abstract
The mode of action of the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate (19-norandrost-4,9,11-trien-3-one-17-acetate) was studied through the endogenous hormonal response of castrated male sheep to subcutaneous implantation of 140 mg of trenbolone acetate and 20 mg of oestradiol both separately and in combination. Radioimmunoassay of delta-4,9,11-trienic steroids and oestradiol-17 beta in plasma confirmed that simultaneous administration of trenbolone acetate with oestradiol led to a significantly greater persistence of oestradiol-17 beta residues in plasma (P less than 0.05) than with implantation of oestradiol alone. Oestradiol treatment increased concentrations of growth hormone and insulin (P less than 0.05; P less than 0.001 respectively) in plasma samples collected weekly. Trenbolone acetate by itself had no significant effect and the oestrogenic response was blocked on the simultaneous implantation of trenbolone acetate and oestradiol (despite higher plasma levels of oestradiol-17 beta with this treatment). Plasma total thyroxine was markedly depressed to 45 per cent of its basal level by trenbolone acetate, alone or with oestradiol (P less than 0.001) and depressed to 80 per cent of basal by oestradiol treatment alone (P less than 0.001). Plasma prolactin was unaltered by the above treatments.
PMID: 7017853 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Growth hormone, insulin, prolactin and total thy... [Res Vet Sci. 1981] - PubMed - NCBI
Complete agreement on bloodwork. A few questions in regards to the study if I may:
1) do you have full access or just the abstract? I ask bc it says a 140mg implantation which sounds like a 1-time dose to me. Does extended dosing patterns affect the results (prolactin specifically) differently? Also I believe most of us would take a higher dose than 140mg/wk so is it dose dependent on when prolactin starts to rise (like a minimum effective dose but to raise prolactin)? Also I'd love to see the methodology and design of the study
2) in regards to AAS, there's not much difference between an IM injection and a Sub-Q injection right? The study was done with sub-q.
3) how is the endocrine system of a sheep similar and different than in humans? Could this have something to do with prolactin failing to change?
