Just starting testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) - Some general questions and advice would be appreciated

[Hoodlum]

Just starting TRT - Some general questions and advice would be appreciated

For reference, I'm a 31 year old male, in good shape (~10% body fat), I weight train 3-5 times a week (squats, deadlifts, bench etc), and I eat healthy.

Over the last 12 months, I'd noticed myself getting less and less sociable. My joie de vivre had vanished, and I'd become very jaded and cynical generally. Every time friends suggested doing something to me, I'd just reply with "what's the point? it's boring". I wasn't depressed (I've had clinical depression before, and know the difference), just felt like I was living an existence in shades of grey, instead of colour. My sex drive vanished, I completely stopped pursuing women - I can't even remember the last time I had morning wood. I found it nearly impossible to get any decent gains at the gym, and had little or no energy for my workouts, even through I religiously kept at it.

Finally having had enough, I went to the docs and had my serum testosterone level checked. It came back at 310. This apparently fell within the "normal" range of 300-800 (ridiculously large range, incorporating all different ages of men), and he didn't want to know anything else. I pressed the point, and got referred to a urologist, and after some further tests (SHBG, bioavailable and free testosterone calculation), and presenting with the symptoms of early onset hypogonadism, got prescribed with 2 months' worth of testogel as a trial - once daily, 5g (50mg test) sachets.

After the first couple of days (applying the gel at about 7am-8am), to say I felt better would be the world's biggest understatement. It was like someone flipped a switch, or turned my manliness dial up to 10. My drive, confidence and motivation returned in droves, I was suddenly up for doing things again, I started noticing women everywhere, even experiencing visceral surges of sexual attraction, something which I hadn't felt since I was a teenager. My endurance at the gym went through the roof, suddenly in possession of a new-found aggression which pushed me through 4 extra reps on all my sets. I started chatting up and taking phone numbers off women in the street without even really consciously realising what I was doing - I just felt this compulsion to act. My friends said I seemed like a different person, there was a new life in my eyes.

So, I've been on the testogel for a week now. Unfortunately, every day by mid-afternoon, I can feel myself slipping back into my old mindset. Bit by bit, I become less and less sociable, cancelling dates with girls that I'd set up that morning, instead favouring just staying in on my own again whilst my friends go out. By the time the end of the day comes around, I feel almost entirely back to the way I used to be. Not completely, but an absolute shadow of my morning myself. If I train about 4pm, the surge of endorphins/testosterone from that keeps me going a little longer, but it rapidly fades again.

Now that I've seen what life can be like, the contrast in how I'm feeling is making me utterly despondent. I almost broke down in tears earlier with the realisation that this whole last period of my life - where I've been blaming myself for being an anti-social, celibate, miserable bastard - wasn't actually my fault.

So if you're still reading, thanks for taking the time, and here are my questions or things I'd like advice on...

- what's the half-life of Testogel? From what I can discern from Googling, it seems to be about an hour, meaning that most of it would be gone by lunch time. Is this right? And in which case, would it be reasonable to re-dose again mid-afternoon to keep my levels more stable?
- my urologist wanted me to try this as a 2 month trial before getting my bloodwork done again and re-assessing. I know after 1 week that I need to be on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) to feel normal, let alone at my best, so I'm going to try and have my next appointment brought forward. When getting these next bloods done prior to my appointment, should it right after application of the gel, or 1 hour, 2 hours etc?
- testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in the UK is light years behind the US. No mention has been made of possibly needing Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (Estradiol is not even included in the routine blood tests), and nowhere in the country will even consider using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to counteract testicular atrophy. I'm 31 years old - I'm not willing to accept that my balls are just going to eventually shrivel up if I go on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) long term, so I'm considering self medicating. The only source I know of currently is the Silk Road. Also, how close attention to my E2 level do I need to pay? Or is it only if I start getting symptoms? I'll have to get my own bloodwork done to monitor this.
- the urologist said if the trial of the Testogel showed I needed the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) (which it very much seems to have done) then we'd switch to 12-weekly injections of testosterone undecanoate. I've been reading that most people seem to favour 10 day jabs of test cyp instead, but he wasn't willing to consider this when I spoke to him. I'm keen to keep my T levels stable, and not potentially risk having to spend 4 weeks out of every 12 with unacceptably low levels. If necessary, I'm willing to fly out to the US and stay for a period of time to get a treatment plan worked out. Money isn't an issue fortunately.

Thanks for any advice or help, I'm pretty new to all this, and it would be genuinely appreciated. I'm usually an extremely proud individual, disciplined and hard on myself, never wanting to shirk taking responsibility for anything, but realising that how I've been feeling all this time, and how I shouldn't have been blaming myself, has really knocked the stuffing out of me. I just want to get my treatment sorted out, and feel like I'm being the best version of myself.

 

[halfwit]

Okay, I would like to preface what I say with a disclaimer: I am extremely biased after talking to many men in our shoes (I too am on TRT) and may come off a little aggressive with my opinions as my faith in the medical community continues to wane more and more every day. With that said, I'll try my best to give an objective (I said try!) opinion and advice.

1. I do not know exactly how the half-life of a transdermal based on effective hormone being released translates to effective active time. I can say however, that many doctors push this absolute crap on their patients as they have the gels/creams/pellets/patches/experimental esters pushed on them by drug reps. The biggest problem with transdermals like Testogel is that while it does increase your testosterone serum levels, it also GREATLY increases your DHT and Estradiol levels. Combine this with the fact that you can sweat it off and possibly contaminate others with a potent hormone, I don't fully understand why it's still prescribed today. Oh wait, I do - money is being made from a proprietary blend that is a magnitude more expensive than the injected hormone.

2. Given the rapid conversion in your bloodstream, I wouldn't apply it before the blood test. That would give your doc a peak value, which may (depending on the doctor) have them give an inappropriate response to your treatment. I prefer to show middle of the road values, but I don't know how this is possible with Testogel to be honest.

3. Estradiol is what is responsible for 99.999% of the negative side effects of testosterone that you will read on the insert with your Testo-crap. It blows me away that doctors which are quite comfortable monkeying with your testosterone levels don't take the time to educate themselves (this is all too common in the US as well) on how the testosterone you introduce to your system in turn is converted to estrogens. Estradiol being the most potent of them, which can most certainly increase your blood pressure, cause gynecomastia (breast formation), prostate cancer (Estradiol is a carcinogen), acne, and emotional issues. I would definitely push to have this added to your panel, although many of us have to take matters into our own hands and obtain blood tests outside our primary care physician's knowledge. If you find you are one of the "lucky" ones that does aromatize a great deal and your doctor refuses to prescribe an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), there are other methods available in obtaining the drugs. I cannot discuss where to obtain these in the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum, but if you find yourself in this situation, a thread in the AAS section will find the answers you seek.

4. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is a topic of some debate in this forum as some state it is needed regardless of being done with children or if you truly care about the size of your testes as you do make more than just testosterone in your testicles. I do not personally use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as the cost is prohibitive for me and my doctor refuses to prescribe it. I do however supplement my diet with DHEA and pregnenolone as these are needed hormones that tend to go lacking while taking exogenous testosterone. Again, if your doctor is unwilling to prescribe this and you find yourself in the position where you deem it necessary as part of your protocol, you can either doctor shop to see if you can find a more progressively minded doctor that is worth a salt, or again create a thread in the AAS section inquiring about methods on procuring this drug.

5. I do not like the route your doctor is pursuing as undecanoate is still on trials here in the US and I feel that it is just another attempt by big pharma to capitalize on another means of making money. Cypionate or Enanthate estered testosterone will not only be more potent milligram by milligram as the esters are lighter in mass, but two injects per week at 3.5 days apart (4 is fine, I'm just anal about it) is pretty much optimal as it keeps your hormone levels steady and prevents you from seeing spikes in levels - leading to further generation of estrogens by your body's negative feedback loop. You WILL feel a crash if your doctor is one of those that has NO business in the hormone world and simply goes by what the decades-old literature suggests as a dosing protocol. I found every seven days to be even too far apart for my liking as I would inevitably crash by day 5-6. What's the point of taking hormones if you can't feel good ALL the time?

You certainly sound like you have an uphill battle ahead of you, but I promise that your persistence and perseverance will pay off in the end. There is no better feeling than once you finally have everything dialed in and you are able to stop focusing on the small things in life that truly don't matter - freeing your energy to take on bigger tasks like we're meant to.

My .02c

 

[Hoodlum]

That's great info, thanks for taking the time to reply. The more I read, the more and more I get the impression I'm just going to have to take matters into my own hands. I've tried questioning my urologist about some of these matters already, and his reactions usually range from "disinterested" all the way over to "don't question me you worm, I'm an expert".

I feel that I've read up enough to begin a self-treatment programme, the most important part of which would be monitoring my bloodwork to see where I'm at with the various factors as I progress. Fortunately, the private doctor who prescribes me finasteride for my hair has access to a lab where I could get the tests done relatively cheaply.

How quickly is it possible for things like E2 and testicular atrophy to start becoming a factor? The urologist didn't seem at all bothered to allow me to go 2 months on Testogel without any sort of checkups in between.

 

[Sedg1]

As I too found out five months ago, you have come to the right place. Hypogonadism is one of the few, or perhaps only, men's health issue that is better understood by men with this condition than by the doctors who would treat us.

Unlike halfwit, and others with a breadth of experience, I can offer little advice, and would not presume to. But I can offer a bit of a pep talk because I was very much in your shoes five months ago, and have a very different life today because of the decisions I made to address this health issue straight on. They key, I soon discovered, was to be pro-active. To take my health needs into my own hands and find the docs who would assist me with my needs, and accept the reality of my predicament.

Like you, the quality of my life had descended to place I did not want to be. After eliminating the usual suspects for the very symptoms you detail so well, I asked my doc to order a T test. And like you, it came in at about 300 (total) and 49 (free). I have a great relationship with my primary care doc. Because she had no idea what to do for me, she referred me to a urologist. He proved to be a guy who, thankfully, was more interested in my clinical symptoms (including low bone mass - osteopenia), than the mere test results. He agreed to treat me for hypogonadism and fight with the insurance company that would be paying for my care. That proved to be no issue at all. Apparently, I met the insurance criteria as well.

As with most guys here, the first protocol reinforced the diagnosis but missed the mark. The 200 mg of cyp every two weeks gave me a huge early rush, but made me crash about 10 days into it. So we went 200 mg every 10 days. Better, but not perfect - still too much variability and I have learned that estrogen issues can happen when your body has to process that big hit, and I am not on any Aromatase inhibitor (AI) or or complementary therapies (eg: HCG). Currently, I am taking 150 mg every 7 days. It is working very well for me. I do not notice any significant boost or trough. Other guys, like the knowledgeable halfwit, prefer a shorter interval. But this is all a matter of trial and error to find that delicate balance.

This protocol has maintained me well. It has addressed all the energy/cognitive issues that so affected my intellectually demanding work. I again look forward to my daily after-work workouts. In the past five months I have put on 11 pounds of lean muscle mass and have lost that ugly andro-belly. At home, I have a renewed "vigor" which my wife can testify to - for better or worse.

I plan to stay on cyp. Initially, my doc talked about Testopel pellets or the gel. There is little support here for those options, and i can understand why. The pellets are dramatically more expensive than the injections. Even though my insurance would pay for it, that is not the decisive factor. The release can be uneven. It is an invasive procedure, which can trigger complications as well. I suppose it would be a good option for guys who are needle-shy. Not an issue for me. I already inject B 12 and a biologic agent. I also like the fact that that I know precisely what I am putting in my body and can tweak the dose as needed, all in way that I suspect is unavailable with the "new and improved" delivery systems. Only other thing I am considering is Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) because of testicular atrophy. I am done having kids. But having cochones the size of pistachios (not there yet - more like pecans) is the "no free lunch" side of the testosterone equation. No estrogen issues at all, so no Aromatase inhibitor (AI) needs.

It sounds to me that your path may be a bit different, and similar to other guys who have had to take their treatment into their own hands because of the vagaries of the health system and physician ignorance or antipathy given the public face of anabolic steroids. But, my friend, it can be done. And it is worth it. We all get too few precious days on this earth. To waste even one of them because of a medical condition that is so easily diagnosed and treated is a bloody shame (in your vernacular).
I wish you well on your path to good health.

 

[1693]

For now have you tried a bit more of Testogel mid day?

Steroids are legal in the UK, maybe just ask around the gyms for a good source else other places are available on line.

Finasteride can be quite harsh to a guy's endocrine system, if it's bothering you, you need to get off it pronto, search for symptoms from it and what it can do....how long have you been using it?

 

[halfwit]

That's great info, thanks for taking the time to reply. The more I read, the more and more I get the impression I'm just going to have to take matters into my own hands. I've tried questioning my urologist about some of these matters already, and his reactions usually range from "disinterested" all the way over to "don't question me you worm, I'm an expert".

I feel that I've read up enough to begin a self-treatment programme, the most important part of which would be monitoring my bloodwork to see where I'm at with the various factors as I progress. Fortunately, the private doctor who prescribes me finasteride for my hair has access to a lab where I could get the tests done relatively cheaply.

How quickly is it possible for things like E2 and testicular atrophy to start becoming a factor? The urologist didn't seem at all bothered to allow me to go 2 months on Testogel without any sort of checkups in between.

That's a tough one to answer as it depends on many factors dependent on your genetic disposition to aromatization (conversion of testosterone to estrogen) and the actual active times of the Testogel which I'm not wholly versed in. I do know that men on injectables tend to see estrogen problems arise shortly before the hormone reaches full serum levels, which in your case may already be happening. Symptoms to look for are bloating in the face and feet, elevated blood pressure, acne cropping up on your shoulders and back/jawline, and the wonderful emotional rollercoasters that may ensue if it gets high enough.

Atrophy is somewhat overblown as it's more of your scrotum "pulling tighter" to your body than your family jewels actually shrinking by a large margin. Yes, they do shrink a bit - but it isn't as if you'll have raisinettes in a month. The amount of time it takes as well as the degree of severity are (like estrogen) completely dependent on the individual and you may not even notice any atrophy at all. You will notice when they do however, as they do begin to ache a bit.

Hope this helps.

Excellent post by the way Sedg1.

 

[Hoodlum]

Sedg1 - thank you for that detailed and inspirational reply. As you mention, the seemingly complete disinterest from the medical community in this country at least, in what is a condition which can severely impact a man's quality of life, is astonishing, given how quick many GPs are to throw various drugs at you for a variety of other ailments, none of which even register on the same spectrum of severity.

Indeed, let alone being the only person I've ever met in real life who is embarking upon this treatment (or at least the only one honest enough to admit it), not a single one of my friends was even aware that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) was existed as a medical treatment to the symptoms it causes. "You're going on steroids? Ew, you'll end up massive and ugly" tends to be the usual response.

It's heartening to read about the sustained increase in quality of live you have achieved. I hadn't yet started suffering from mental fatigue, but I suspect had I left the condition untreated it would have ended up going that way. I'm especially pleased to read about the amount of muscle you've put on, and the subsequent loss of andro-belly (quality term by the way!). I love my training, and I value being in good shape, but I'd started to become really disheartened by my lack of recent progress, no matter how hard I work. I managed to cut down to 8% body fat recently (which was probably a bit generous, given it was only tested with a 4-point caliper method), and yet still I could not shift the pouch of fat below my bottom 2 abs, and on the back of my hips. Whenever I eat certain types of carbs and put on some water retention, the very first place it goes is to my hips, causing frankly disgusting "muffin-top". Many of my friends who are nowhere near as lean as me have much better looking physiques due to this.

I'm still 31 and plan to have a family and kids at some point, so I think I'll be tracking down some Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) - even if for nothing more than aesthetic reasons. I can understand why some people don't feel the need however.

 

[Hoodlum]

That's a tough one to answer as it depends on many factors dependent on your genetic disposition to aromatization (conversion of testosterone to estrogen) and the actual active times of the Testogel which I'm not wholly versed in. I do know that men on injectables tend to see estrogen problems arise shortly before the hormone reaches full serum levels, which in your case may already be happening. Symptoms to look for are bloating in the face and feet, elevated blood pressure, acne cropping up on your shoulders and back/jawline, and the wonderful emotional rollercoasters that may ensue if it gets high enough.

Atrophy is somewhat overblown as it's more of your scrotum "pulling tighter" to your body than your family jewels actually shrinking by a large margin. Yes, they do shrink a bit - but it isn't as if you'll have raisinettes in a month. The amount of time it takes as well as the degree of severity are (like estrogen) completely dependent on the individual and you may not even notice any atrophy at all. You will notice when they do however, as they do begin to ache a bit.

Hope this helps.

Excellent post by the way Sedg1.

Ok cool, thanks for that info. I'll keep an eye out for the signs for now, until I can get some more bloodwork done. I did feel a bit tearful last night - /but/ I'm just going to let myself have that one for now, as it was the culmination of a release of nearly a year's worth of pressure I'd been putting myself under as a result of feeling like this. Unsurprisingly, it seems that wondering if you are only half a man has a way of eating away at your mental fortitude over a period of time.

At least if nothing else I now have an excuse for getting choked up when Russell Crowe dies at the end of Gladiator next time I watch it with my housemates ;-)

 

[Hoodlum]

For now have you tried a bit more of Testogel mid day?

Steroids are legal in the UK, maybe just ask around the gyms for a good source else other places are available on line.

Finasteride can be quite harsh to a guy's endocrine system, if it's bothering you, you need to get off it pronto, search for symptoms from it and what it can do....how long have you been using it?

I didn't actually know they were legal in this country. Although it appears they are legal to possess, but there are penalties for supply - so might still make it difficult to track down a reputable source? I'll have to do some more research.

With respect to the Finasteride, I'm personal friends with one of the doctors who pioneered it's introduction as a hair loss treatment. There's a lot of misinformation about the side effects floating around. Before it's use was approved, 2 separate peer reviewed studies were carried out, one on 1000 people, the other on 3000. Each study confirmed the existence of a 0.5% chance of a lowering of sex drive. Importantly, in both studies, discontinuing the drug restored sexual function within 48 hours, due to the short half life of the drug. There were no long lasting effects, and no possibly biological mechanism by which it could occur.

During the 3 years I've been taking Finasteride, there have been several periods where I've not taken it for weeks at a time, so after talking this through with my doctor, I was happy to rule it out as a potential cause of my symptoms.

And with respect to the Androgel, I think that's why I'll try to do for now, at least until I can get my appointment with my urologist brought forward sooner. It's strange - when I wake up feeling like I have done for the past 6 months, it doesn't bother me much past a general gnawing sensation that I don't feel very motivated, it just seems "normal". It's only when I've had the experience of feeling elevated testosterone, which then fades later in the day, do I realise how much my previously "normal" level is lacking by comparison. I'm almost tempted to leave off the stuff altogether until I can get some test cyp sorted out, rather than keep going through this daily rollercoaster.

 

[1693]

Your doc might have a biased opinion then about finasteride.

propeciahelp.com/

 

[halfwit]

Ok cool, thanks for that info. I'll keep an eye out for the signs for now, until I can get some more bloodwork done. I did feel a bit tearful last night - /but/ I'm just going to let myself have that one for now, as it was the culmination of a release of nearly a year's worth of pressure I'd been putting myself under as a result of feeling like this. Unsurprisingly, it seems that wondering if you are only half a man has a way of eating away at your mental fortitude over a period of time.

At least if nothing else I now have an excuse for getting choked up when Russell Crowe dies at the end of Gladiator next time I watch it with my housemates ;-)

I had hormone levels of a 14 year old girl in puberty before I started testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), so I TOTALLY understand what you're going through. I remember balling like a baby in the theater with my wife being just misty eyed during scenes that I would normally have shrugged off. It's crazy how much hormones impact the way we feel and perceive things in the world around us - even when the world is fictitious.

The good news is that it is all about to be behind you, so you can take solace in the fact that you'll be able to feel like 100% pure man once again.

 

[Hoodlum]

Your doc might have a biased opinion then about finasteride.

propeciahelp.com/

Peer-reviewed, statistically significant scientific studies with replicable results aren't biased though. I'm not interested in scaremongering, just facts.

Bear in mind, just as strong as the placebo effect is what is called the "nocebo" effect - where people convince themselves that they are experiencing negative side effects, and so actually develop them. There simply isn't anything other than anecdotal evidence to support the claims these people are making, otherwise their lawsuits might be more successful.

 

[1693]

I'm just glad that you responded well to test. I think you just need to get on a good protocol that works for you and I think you'll do great with it.

 

[Hoodlum]

I'm just glad that you responded well to test. I think you just need to get on a good protocol that works for you and I think you'll do great with it.

Thanks pal, now I've had my eyes opened to what I should be feeling like, I'm just really looking forward to getting it all sorted out.

 

[Sedg1]

Excellent post by the way Sedg1.

Thanks pal. We are all in this together.
I always re-read your consistently illuminating contributions.
Keep up the good work.

 

[Sedg1]

Sedg1 - thank you for that detailed and inspirational reply. As you mention, the seemingly complete disinterest from the medical community in this country at least, in what is a condition which can severely impact a man's quality of life, is astonishing, given how quick many GPs are to throw various drugs at you for a variety of other ailments, none of which even register on the same spectrum of severity.

Indeed, let alone being the only person I've ever met in real life who is embarking upon this treatment (or at least the only one honest enough to admit it), not a single one of my friends was even aware that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) was existed as a medical treatment to the symptoms it causes. "You're going on steroids? Ew, you'll end up massive and ugly" tends to be the usual response.

Hoodlum, happy to help if with nothing more than a pep talk. Your story touched me in a few ways.

First, it is your age. You are 31. I am 57. Yet we both want the same thing. Robust health that allows us to squeeze 110% out of every day. We both want to be physically strong, cognitively intact and emotionally sound. We both reached a point when our life quality was threatened by something beyond our control. Mere resolve will not restore normal testosterone levels. Through pro-action we both discovered the source of our common distress and have taken the necessary steps to remedy it. And this is the second point of interest which is common to most men in our situation.

If we both had diabetes, any doc with a piece of university paper hanging on the wall could, and most certainly would, write a script for insulin. You would fill at your local pharmacy (aka chemist). There would be no second looks, no hesitation and no explanation necessary. Your friends would pass no judgment. And you would undoubtedly discover that even some of them have that physiologic imbalance. But that is a malady that carries no baggage. There is no stigma attached to the condition or treatment. I feel it too. I do not tell my friends that I am on HRT. Though it might be fun to tell them about my symptoms, identify the condition as hypogonadism as diagnosed serologically, describe the therapeutic approach as Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), and then watch their jaws drop when I tell them I am "shooting up T."

You and I, and every other guy who has found this site, has an equally diagnosible medical condition with an undeniable solution. But it is one that goes largely diagnosed and treated because of physician ignorance or bias. It is the very reason there are dedicated "men's clinics" and an on-line industry for mail-order treatment protocols. While I am still contemplating the genesis of this attitude, I suspect it is because of the public face of steroids. Long before "low T" entered the lexicon, the public was introduced to testosterone-infused athletes and other abusers. That is, cheaters and chemically fueled narcissists. And the common denominator - steroids, a Schedule III drug. Like your friends, the public judges our medical predicament by the medication we take to combat this incurable medical condition. I suspect a different response if we were women prescribed estrogen for the female hormonal imbalance.

The public perception of hypogonadism will change only when the condition is "judged" by its symptoms and not by its treatment. That will happen only when men get educated, get tested and find doctors who are capable of diagnosing the condition and are willing to treat it as they would any other physiologic imbalance. And it really grinds me to have to acknowledge that it is the medical-industrial complex that will be in the vanguard of that effort, not the medical community. I do not know what it is like in the UK, but in the US, the media are inundated with ads for HRT. Frankly, it is the reason I asked my doc for a T test. And much to our mutual surprise, that was the problem. I was doubly fortunate to find a urologist who supported treatment, but mostly because of my osteopenia and ED, two "objective" symptoms. If I was dealing only with depression, they would give me an anti-depressant. If I were dealing only with andro-belly, they would tell me to go to the gym 7 days a week, not just the 5 I am doing now. If I described other purely "existential" issues, off for therapy - but not of the hormonal type. I can not help but think about all those guys out there who are being treated for symptoms related to hypogonadism when the underlying condition remains invisible and unaddressed.

I remain optimistic and believe we will look back ten years from now and marvel at the level of ignorance and bias that confronts us today. But change will come only when the public and greater medical community re-calibrates its perception of testosterone. Unfortunately, I see that happening not because of men of my generation, but because of men in yours. Studies I have read suggest a very troubling and silent epidemic. This one characterizes the generational decline in testosterone levels, not over centuries or millennia, but from father to son. A Population-Level Decline in Serum Testosterone Levels in American Men. As the father of three sons in their early 20's, I fear for their safety in so many ways. Now there appears to be a threat that I could never have imagined until this condition arrived on my plate.

Hoodlum. you seem to me an articulate and sensible young man. If you are also resourceful, which I also suspect, you will find the care you need. But even when you do, and you feel rejuvenated, it will still be cool to cry at the movies. Chicks love that....

 

[Hoodlum]

To my mind also, as you have alluded to, the problem goes beyond merely ill-informed doctors, into the prevailing attitudes of society.

You are quite correct in your assumption of a double standard where women using estrogen is concerned. Indeed also consider the case of someone using hormones to deliberately change their sex - they are referred to as "empowered" and "a shining example". A man using testosterone to improve his quality of life however? That is evidently to be villified.

Testosterone, and the masculinity it represents, has come to be taboo in society. The very aspects of manliness - dominance, controlled agression, assertiveness - have gained negative connitations, and are actively stamped out in young boys at school.

Your speculation on the number of symptoms of hypogonadism that get diagnosed as completely separate ailments is very interesting. I too, through ignorance, had fallen into the trap of blaming anything but my T levels - I was working out harder and harder, with less and less energy, and I ended up attended CBT sessions to try and improve my confidence and motivation. Not that those things had no effect at all - indeed, the good habits I picked up during this time are now coming into their own in the magnification of their benefits that are bestowed upon me when under the influence of raised testosterone levels. But the whole time the real cause was much more basic. testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) isn't really discussed in this country, the whole "industry" is at least a decade behind the US.

I too read an article that cited several studies that showed testosterone levels had declined as much as 30% since the 1970s. It was what got me started on this whole path. The increasing number of estrogenic compounds entering the food chain can only be having a deleterious effect in this regard. At some point in the future, it would be nice to think that T-level screening could be as commonplace as smear tests.

Thank you for your kind words. And don't worry - even if I'm bursting my shirt open with muscularity, there will still always be a sob or two for Russ ;-)

 

[Sedg1]

I too read an article that cited several studies that showed testosterone levels had declined as much as 30% since the 1970s.

You do not have to read the results of scientific studies to discern this fact. Just compare the descent of James Bond over the same time frame, from Sean Connary on. Though it would fair to suggest that the appearance of Daniel Craig signaled the diagnosis of low T for the franchise and administering of T by Q. Even Judi Dench made a kick-ass M - perhaps because she failed to respect the warning that women should avoid contact with "gel-men."

Despite your observations regarding the societal emasculation of men, our cinematic heroes, at least in the US, remain manly men. The hot movie this spring was "Iron Man," not "Pussy Male." Show a picture of Stalone and Hugh Grant to a young boy and ask which he wants to be when he grows up. My concern, as a US male, is not that our society will breed the man out of men. It is that our environment is already doing it, and silently. I believe we are fighting a battle against a biologic foe that we do not fully understand, and one, worse yet, that is of our own making. We are all under silent assault by floating pathogens and biologics in our food stream. What other explanation can there be for a profound generational decline in T levels over such a short period. So we men must now inject to protect us from what we ingest. It is a fool's tautology.

There is a movement afoot in the US to address the issue. I live in a very rural part of a very rural state. The interest in organic and local food production is gaining great momentum. My family has been enjoying the blessing of a beef critter who was raised just down the road. He was fed grass. No drugs. No steroids or anti-biotics. He tastes great - so much different than "agri-beef." We try to eat locally harvested chickens and produce as well. When I retire, my wife and I will move to a 120 acre lot of land and begin food production of our own. It will be based on sustainable and organic techniques. And we hope to make the bounty of that land available, as best we can, to those who could benefit from it. It is not easy to eat well. Good food is often financially out of reach for many folks.

But I have no illusions that what I do at 57 will resurrect my endogenous production of testosterone. That ship has already set sail. And whatever was left in that factory has been obliterated by the cyp I take. I simply regard as the apparent decline of testosterone as the canary in the coal mine. It is a phenomenon that reflects more systemic health issues that, I fear, are likely to manifest as time passes. It would be a revolution in so many ways if society dedicated its health resources to the detection and prevention of these issues rather than the treatment of them.

 

[Hoodlum]

Halfwit - can I ask why you favour a 3.5/4 day injection schedule with test cyp, when most other resources I've looked into go with a 7 day cycle?

My presumption would be that seeing as the half life of test cyp is around 7 days, you prefer to keep your levels topped up before more than 1/4 of the cyp has gone from your system, hence the 3.5 day schedule. You've noticed this makes you feel more stable on a day to day basis?

Also, with regard to Aromatase inhibitor (AI), in your opinion should they be used in response to E2 levels from bloodwork going outside of a given range, or only when symptoms start to present?

Thanks pal, appreciate the info.

 

[kilsong]

As with most guys here, the first protocol reinforced the diagnosis but missed the mark. The 200 mg of cyp every two weeks gave me a huge early rush, but made me crash about 10 days into it. So we went 200 mg every 10 days. Better, but not perfect -.

Verrrrry interesting post.
Question...you spoke about how it made you 'crash' 10 days into it.
How often were you taking the 200? How did you space it?
ALSO....what kind of crash did u experience?
How did you feel?
Thanks in advance