Nolvadex as alternative for HPTA recovery?

[mistasmif]

I'm about to conclude an oral Winstrol only 8 week cycle @ 50mg ED. I don't forsee much of a shut down at all but I'm curious if I can run Nolvadex for post cycle therapy (pct) as an alternative to Clomid to recover from any possible detrimental affects to my HPTA.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[fr8tren]

i would get clomid if i were you. i do not know if nolva can recover HTPA, i always thought it was only used as an anti E . i am curious myself though...

 

[jynx]

You don't need post cycle therapy (pct) when running Winstrol.

 

[einstein1905]

You don't need post cycle therapy (pct) when running Winstrol.

Yes, you most certainly do need post cycle therapy (pct). takin gin an exogenous Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) will inhibit HPTA.
Nolva is better than nothing but inferior to clomid. Clomid is very cheap and easy to get. i suggest just springing for some clomid and use the nolva with it at 20mg/day

 

[Mudge]

Hell yes, clomid sucks anyway for me. 100mg for more than a week and it hits my mood.

20mg Nolvadex "equals" 50mg clomid.

I feel fine on nolvadex, I've seen studies suggesting that nolvadex works just fine and I'd continue to use it as it works fine for me. Clomid on the other hand makes me feel like shit on a stick. I have mixed the two before when I had some clomid to kill off, that worked all right.

 

[einstein1905]

I will say that many people blame clomid for sides during post cycle therapy (pct) (acne, mood shifts, etc), but actually it's indirect. it's very well established that clomid is far superior to nolva in acute use at increasing gonadotropins. The studies where nolva is equal or better are ONLY after 3-6 months of consecutive use. All time points prior to 3 months show clomid being superior, and by a great deal in most studies. Clearly, 3 months isn't an ideal post cycle therapy (pct) duration. the reason one experiences sides with clomid is due to the rapid fluxes in hormone levels. the acute rise in FSH and LH, and therefore subsequent test production. Rapid shifts in hormones like this are akin to puberty, menstruation, menopause, etc. All of which bring with them similar symptoms/sides due to rapid fluxes in hormone levels. Nolva doesn't elicit these sides because it doesn't increase gonadotropins nearly as efficiently, so the rise in test is much more slow and gradual. I'll gladly exchange the sides (indicative of efficient recovery) for a more rapid recovery of HPTA function, as this decreases the duration during which your body is in an androgen-deprived state and increases you ability to keep hard-earned gains.

 

[Mudge]

Bah, I really didn't want to use that crap again

By the way, Tesla was a better man than Einstein

 

[Ozzy27]

Shit !! And here I thought I would be able to get the same recovery from nolvadex
Looks like I'll just have to deal with the sides of clomid then because I'm not willing to sacrifice my gains.

Now , on another note.....my friend emails Dave Palumbo and he states 1 clomid ed for 30 days......whats this shit about ?

 

[StoneColdNTO]

You don't need post cycle therapy (pct) when running Winstrol.

Where did you ever come up with that ??

 

[jynx]

Where did you ever come up with that ??

http://www.steroidology.com/profiles/drugs/winstrol.htm - Second paragraph

I took the part about not needing anti-estrogens as not needing post cycle therapy (pct). Just a little misunderstanding.

 

[ftw666]

the only side i get from clomid is hot flashes that last a minute or so
about once an hr.

 

[mistasmif]

I've had a lot of MODs at various boards suggest avoiding Clomid for my Winstrol only cycle. I've been advised this Nolvadex PCT:

Week 1-2: 40mg ED
Week 3-4: 20mg ED

Any input?

 

[hooker]

20mg Nolvadex "equals" 50mg clomid.

Actually, 20mgs of tamoxifen (nolvadex) is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, as well as FSH and LH elevation, but tamixifen does not decrease the LH response to LHRH (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.), although Clomid did.

 

[einstein1905]

Actually, 20mgs of tamoxifen (nolvadex) is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, as well as FSH and LH elevation, but tamixifen does not decrease the LH response to LHRH (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.), although Clomid did.

You have to look at the durations used for this study and any others that favor tamoxifen. On the short term, 6 weeks or less, clomid is far superior...the same holds true for LHRH insensitivity.......also look at the % reduction....kep in mind this is something from 1978! never since has there been any indication of a SERM causing LHRH desensitization

 

[hooker]

On the short term, 6 weeks or less, clomid is far superior...

How is it superior if 20mgs of nolv has the same effect as 150mgs of clomid? How much do they each raise HPTA function in under 6 weeks? I have no idea...

.keep in mind this is something from 1978!

Is there new research that invalidates this study?

 

[Quest2be1]

I have to agree with mudge, I like Nolva much better than Clomid, Clomid seems to have many more side affects than Nolva. Plus it still gets the job done. Clomid is definately PMS in a pill, have fun with it after about the first first week of 100mg's a day

 

[einstein1905]

How is it superior if 20mgs of nolv has the same effect as 150mgs of clomid? How much do they each raise HPTA function in under 6 weeks? I have no idea...



Is there new research that invalidates this study?

How do you figure 20mg of nolva = 150mg of clomid? over what duration? certainly not over acute use. like I said, the durations of the studies showing nolva reaising test more are 3-6 months long. the time points prior to the 3 month mark show clomid being more effective.

No subsequent study has noted any type of LHRH desensitization with clomid. The binding affinity for hypothalamal ERs are drastically different for clomid and nolva.

read the studies here:
http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=94626

 

[einstein1905]

I have to agree with mudge, I like Nolva much better than Clomid, Clomid seems to have many more side affects than Nolva. Plus it still gets the job done. Clomid is definately PMS in a pill, have fun with it after about the first first week of 100mg's a day

"gets the job done" meaning what? You can recover HPTA w/o post cycle therapy (pct) too....that gets the job done too, but nolva is certainly far better than no post cycle therapy (pct). However, clomid "gets the job done" much more efficiently.....refer to my previous post on why sides are experienced with clomid.

There won't be a drastic difference if you're not fairly large already and your normal androgen levels can maintain your mass fairly easily, but as you increase LBM and your normal androgen levels have trouble supporting/maintaining your LBM, then the shorter period of androgen-deprivation becomes far more important.

 

[Quest2be1]

yes einstein that is what i meant, i find Nolva will work excellent for post cycle therapy (pct) especially when you have used Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during your cycle. I then find recovery on Nolva much better. Without taking any Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during the cycle i would get some Clomid instead for post cycle therapy (pct). I really didn't have much problems with either one.

 

[fr8tren]

i get very sensitive on clomid i get to look foward to that and bacne for the next few weeks, YAY