Oxandrolone could be taken all year round

[Sanjac]

A few things to clear up:

First, to TxLonghorn, my apologies if part of my post appeared to be inflammatory. However, I use the term "ignorant" not in a derogatory, but a descriptive manner. I am ignorant about many things, and I will not give advice on such things. I expect that others would do the same.

Regarding water retention, I think that this is a result of the 17-a methylation. The liver gets stressed by this structural feature, and the results are common with orals.

>>"...Having said this, what do you think about ox's ability to decrease fat in the midsection in men? Would the water retention interfere with this?"

The reported fat loss would be independent of any bloating due to water. After cessation of the oxandrolone, the reduction in BF would be better seen.


Some other points:

>>"...i know some roids affect the liver some the kidneys. I am not saying test will affect your liver, it will affect your hair...."

Orals affect the liver. Kidney "effects" are anecdotal and unsubstantiated (probably caused by inadequate fluids). Testosterone's effect on the liver is minuscule.

>>"...It indeed is better to take an oral (in this case Ox, then an injectable that is bad for the liver)."

Absolutely wrong, period.

>>"...Now you must admit Ox is safer then D-bol, right?"

I don't agree, for the reasons stated above. Orals are detrimental to the liver, likely due to the 17-aa. Oxandrolone also appears to have a CNS effect (empirical evidence: insomnia, jittery) not seen with dbol.

BTW, don't classify winstrol as an injectable, it is 17-aa.

SJ

 

[frotobaggins]

I would guess that 8 months of ox would bring out a whole slue of side effects that users dont normally get when doing the light 8 weeks cycles like we are accustomd to.

 

[CYPHON]

Anavar works. My experiance was 40mg/day for 8 weeks and a gain of 7 lean pounds on my base caloric diet. Sure the results arent over whelming , but for a ten year vet 7 lean pounds are great gains. Used liver protectors and had no problems with toxicity and no libido suppresion was noticed. NO post cycle therapy (pct) was needed and gains and strength remained. Overall I would call the gains QUALITY and not just quantity such as you would get from Anadrols water poofing.

I wouldnt recommend any newbie get sucked into the stories people post. Everyone will react differently to all gear. Use moderation as a way to asses tolerance. Be carefull.

 

[Jeff_rys]

Well Sanjac i do not agree. Using a small dose of Test, what is small?
Let's say 250 mgr/week. Well that dose would match the Ox intake for a week.
Do you really think you will gain more on one shot Test a week then on Ox?
If so, then why are there guys taking some 2 gr of test a week, and more?
Test can give you water retention, so bad for the BP. I never had water retention with Ox, at least not noticable, my BP never went up. My prostate never was altered and i still have my hair. Ox does not give you titties.Test shuts you down completely, Ox partly.
Ox gives you quality gains. Afterall stop the test and loose some serious "gains", due to water leaving the body.
Now preferring test over Ox depends on your goals. Americans tend more to "size above everything else" then Europeans. So you must understand the difference here.
As for the "diet, cardio, thermos" this has nothing to do with test, this applies to all roids.

I find a statement like "Ox is too expensive" not in order here. Soon we will be whining that HGH is too expensive.

I do classify Winstrol as an injectable. It is not because you can drink it, that is is an oral. Give me one good reason to drink the Winny?
Afraid of the needle?

Jeff

 

[TxLonghorn]

Sanjac, I do have a question about your saying ox is just water retention. If this is so, how do you explain many posters who have done an ox only cycle, reporting gains of 10-15lbs, and then months later, reporting that they have kept those gains, and lean gains at that...how do you explain this away as water retention?

As for calling Winstrol (winny) an oral, I agree. It is 17-aa, regardless if you ingest it or inject it, the effects on the liver are the same. It would be the same as saying, 'I inject dbol, so I don't consider it an oral.'

I would also point out that all 17-aas are not created equal. This is fact. Halo is harsher than dbol which is harsher than ox. Not saying that ox has no effect on the liver, just that it isn't like taking winny.

Sooooo, if you think ox is not that safe, is there a gear that you would consider safe for long term use? Test? Eq?

 

[TxLonghorn]

I find a statement like "Ox is too expensive" not in order here. Soon we will be whining that HGH is too expensive.

I do classify Winstrol as an injectable. It is not because you can drink it, that is is an oral. Give me one good reason to drink the Winny?
Afraid of the needle?

I find that statement always in order...that's my biggest beef with ox. And yes, hgh is too expensive as well, lol.

As for the winny...afraid of the needle? No, but I have no love for the needle, either. I don't see any 'real' advantage for injecting...maybe some of the Winstrol (winny) would get eaten up by the gut, but that would be the only reason. And if that's the case, then injecting Winstrol (winny) can only be harsher on the liver because more 17-aa is there to take care of.

 

[AAP]

Re: Bad,it turned out bad

I am surprised you still remember this.

Jeff

Man, I remember most of your posts. Like the time you had to take 40 solid minutes just to push some primo through an insulin needle because you had nothing else to shoot with.

 

[WI]

Re: Re: Bad,it turned out bad

Man, I remember most of your posts. Like the time you had to take 40 solid minutes just to push some primo through an insulin needle because you had nothing else to shoot with.

LOL........damn............yeah I remeber Jeff from EF back in the day. Definitely a good bro., his always loved his OX.

 

[Sanjac]

Good questions, TxLonghorn:

>>"Sanjac, I do have a question about your saying ox is just water retention. If this is so, how do you explain many posters who have done an ox only cycle, reporting gains of 10-15lbs, and then months later, reporting that they have kept those gains, and lean gains at that...how do you explain this away as water retention?"

I am not "explaining away". I am pointing out some neutral observations. Water retention is a good thing when it comes to strength. Strength is a good thing when it comes to building muscle. So, a proper regimen of diet and training will succeed in building and keeping muscle. Believe me, I had great hopes for oxandrolone when I first tried it. I just did not see the effects that were touted in the "literature" (really just anecdotes trying to sound educated). I am just not convinced that oxandrolone increases protein synthesis to anywhere near the same extent that testosterone does (nor does any other synthetic steroid IMO).

>>"I would also point out that all 17-aas are not created equal. This is fact. Halo is harsher than dbol which is harsher than ox. Not saying that ox has no effect on the liver, just that it isn't like taking winny."

I have come to believe that 17-aa steroids are not healthy. That doesn't mean that they can't be used, just not over-used. None of you know what the long term effects of heavy use of 17-aa steroids are, but I wouldn't want to be a walking laboratory on the subject. You guys go ahead and let me know your health status when you are 50-60 y.o.

>>"Sooooo, if you think ox is not that safe, is there a gear that you would consider safe for long term use? Test? Eq?"

How about 5 years (yes, 5 years) of 600-1000mg testosterone per week (no off-time) with NO adverse effects on liver profile or other health indicators?? This can be considered aggressive HRT

Remember, the body has seen testosterone since puberty, the synthetics are foreign to the body. The synthetics are interesting to explore the effects that they have on the body, but there is no substitute for test. Eq is pretty "safe", but it does not even approach test for protein synthesis, and it has some CNS effects that I don't necessarily like. As for the "dangers" of test, hair loss can hardly be considered a danger on the order of peliosis of the liver.

SJ

 

[TxLonghorn]

Remember, the body has seen testosterone since puberty, the synthetics are foreign to the body. The synthetics are interesting to explore the effects that they have on the body, but there is no substitute for test. Eq is pretty "safe", but it does not even approach test for protein synthesis, and it has some CNS effects that I don't necessarily like.

Interesting stuff...so, you don't agree that mg for mg all gear is the same and think that test is king as far as protein synthesis goes, correct?

Sooooo, and feel free to make this a new post (in fact if you do answer this, it would be better to make it a new post)...saying that you feel test is best on protein synthesis, do you recommend stacking at all, or do you think just do test period? What do you think about your body's ability for tolerance? By that I mean, there are many that have stated that they stay on month after month but that they have to continually switch up different types of gear to continue to grow, otherwise they stagnate.

Thoughts?

 

[ironmaster]

I don't care what you post about, Jeff. I glad you are here because now I am no longer the oldest member.
Being that you are a nice European gentleman, you will lose the pissing contest in this thread so don't waste your time.....lol.
Looks like you moved? I do remember your battle with customs.....I said you would lose that one too.
Jeff's so old, he already has one foot in the grave, so he will do these long oral cycles and not worry. As he has said, not for everyone.

 

[Jeff_rys]

hehehe TX, you hit the nail here

I find that statement always in order...that's my biggest beef with ox. And yes, hgh is too expensive as well, lol.

As for the winny...afraid of the needle? No, but I have no love for the needle, either. I don't see any 'real' advantage for injecting...maybe some of the Winstrol (winny) would get eaten up by the gut, but that would be the only reason. And if that's the case, then injecting Winstrol (winny) can only be harsher on the liver because more 17-aa is there to take care of.

True is basically an oral and i can understand drinking Winny-V, it is no fun shooting with a 20-21 g. But Zambons go through a 30 g, they are depots, so can be shot EOD.
You say the same as my doc, drink Winstrol (winny) and a part is wasted in the stomac. As for injecting Winstrol (winny) being harsher for the liver, no, not really, one less pass for the liver, no wasting. In fact is is the other way around. If you drink it and want the same effect as when shooting, one shoot drink ..... more.
I do agree that the loss is minor, but it is there..

Still we where started about Anavar and unfortunately no one will be able to convince me this is harsh on the liver. I know many will disagree, but ..... i was the one doing 8 months.

I must add here, be sure to have the right stuff.

As for all who have liver problems with their BTG's, please forward them to me.

Jeff

 

[TxLonghorn]

Re: hehehe TX, you hit the nail here

Still we where started about Anavar and unfortunately no one will be able to convince me this is harsh on the liver. I know many will disagree, but ..... i was the one doing 8 months.

Awesome post jeff, and again, thank you for coming here. I hope you stay and contribute. You are the 'ox-man'.

 

[Jeff_rys]

Yes, Ironmaster, it is good to post again...

I don't care what you post about, Jeff. I glad you are here because now I am no longer the oldest member.
Being that you are a nice European gentleman, you will lose the pissing contest in this thread so don't waste your time.....lol.
Looks like you moved? I do remember your battle with customs.....I said you would lose that one too.
Jeff's so old, he already has one foot in the grave, so he will do these long oral cycles and not worry. As he has said, not for everyone.

True, Ironmaster, i will hit 61 in 2 months from now.

However, since reading your posts on EF and AF about HGH combined with the idea of stopping with roids, i am on HGH and only that. I am not stopping with roids because my age, i could do the Ox thing over (without worries), only the cholesterol going downhill prevents me from doing so. However, one never knows.
Another reason is, i do not like to come of it, maybe the most important reason.

I must add i remember most of you guys like WannaImpress, TXLonghorn, AAP, I.M., Ulter and i am sure i forget some.

Jeff

 

[Jeff_rys]

Sanjac, as for doing 1000 mgr of Test for a year or 5, good luck. You probably will not be the first with ruined balls.

Jeff

 

[EZstreet]

What about supraphysiological testosterone levels inhibiting collagen synthesis?
Besides lipid profiles being negatively altered and the hpta disruptions, 5years straight (even less time)would cause muscles that was considerably stronger than the tendons as well as weakened cartilage.
I think oxandrolone is great as well as test but other things needs to be considered when going extremes on either.
As for the synthetic over natural,i.e. testosterone; I think that arguement holds no water(no pun) because there is nothing natural about jacking the body up to 1-2grams/test/week. The impact is already suggested at the start of my post.

Cartilage & tendon strength really should be placed on a higher level of concer. YOu are only as strong as your weakest link.

 

[Sanjac]

>>"What about supraphysiological testosterone levels inhibiting collagen synthesis?"

Please provide a reference or two on this, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Test (with a little concomitant E) is not detrimental to BMD or cartilage/collagen as far as I know. The (over)use of anti-E's such as letrozole can cause problems, but I don't advocate the heavy use of these.

>>"As for the synthetic over natural,i.e. testosterone; I think that arguement holds no water(no pun) because there is nothing natural about jacking the body up to 1-2grams/test/week..."

Who suggested that this was "natural"? The body was designed to deal with testosterone, both in terms of the AR being selective to testosterone to stimulate protein synthesis, as well as the liver's ability to quite effectively remove testosterone from the system with little/no "stress". The synthetics have not shown an ability to stimulate protein synthesis as well as testosterone, and the body can handle testosterone quite well (as for side effects, they can be controlled, but that is another topic).

SJ

 

[Mudge]

(originally posted by AnimalMass)

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) -- the decision is up to you.

 

[WI]

Re: Yes, Ironmaster, it is good to post again...

True, Ironmaster, i will hit 61 in 2 months from now.

However, since reading your posts on EF and AF about HGH combined with the idea of stopping with roids, i am on HGH and only that. I am not stopping with roids because my age, i could do the Ox thing over (without worries), only the cholesterol going downhill prevents me from doing so. However, one never knows.
Another reason is, i do not like to come of it, maybe the most important reason.

I must add i remember most of you guys like WannaImpress, TXLonghorn, AAP, I.M., Ulter and i am sure i forget some.

Jeff

61 Jeff? Wow, never imagined. Well you are definitely a good addition to this board, do stick around bro as we would appreciate your input.

Jeff, what brands of Ox have you used and how do you rank them?

 

[EZstreet]

"The synthetics have not shown an ability to stimulate protein synthesis as well as testosterone, and the body can handle testosterone quite well (as for side effects, they can be controlled, but that is another topic)."


Where did you come up with that one
the effects I mention of testosterone are pretty well known, much more than your above statement(and many more studies other than the on mudge posted from animal). Are you forgetting about trenbolone? It doesn't have cause the amount of nitrogen retention that tesosterone does?
I think you're getting off base with "the synthetics" thing. I'd like to see you post a study that proves or supports your theory on that one.