PCT for coming off of 4 year cycle

[Sharkweek]

I thought you wanted to see how well you recovered but you seem to be more inline with recovering at all?
Pretty sure you have not caused permanent damage as in not functional at all. You most likely have damaged your natural values beyond a standard recovery.

I'd throw in some proviron at about 25-50mg per day starting with SERMs and run it for the same duration.
I'd also double or triple your PCT duration. Standard treatment is 3 months, sometimes up to a year.

Far as the blood work, they are excessive and I personally don't see the benefit but like I said before, you can't have to many blood works and if its only 70 bucks and a an hour for you, please go ahead with your plan.
I'd be interested to see the results for sure

Thank you for continuing to answer my questions. I would obviously like to fully recover; I'm just not sure that is a realistic expectation. By damaged beyond a standard recovery; you mean that it will take a longer treatment plan to get to a normal value; or that I will not likely recover to a normal value?

As I said before; I have enough of the serms to run essentially 12 weeks of PCT; which I am prepared to do if necessary. I just don't see a reason to run more medication than necessary either. I think this is atleast partially why I want to get the bloodwork done at each "stage" of the PCT.

Having higher test levels from HCG is not indicative of a un-damaged HPTA at all. The HCG is telling your balls to produce T and upon cessation of HCG your levels may plummet if you still aren't producing enough LH and FSH on your own. This is a common occurrence during Medical Practice in which the physician will typically resort to TRT if the patient can't produce testosterone on their own after a year of HCG therapy.

Thank you as well for continuing to give your input. This is why I want to get the bloodwork done at each "stage" of the PCT. to me the order is:

1) get the balls up and producing testosterone with HCG
1a) confirm this is happening with bloodwork showing Test levels
2) get the upper end of the HPTA going with the Nolva/Clomid in place of the HCG
2a) confirm this with bloodwork showing LH/FSH
3) get the feedback loop established to signal the HPTA to release LH/FSH in place of the Nolva/Clomid
3a) confirm this with bloodwork some months out from PCT showing LH/FSH/test levels.

4) get a sperm test done to establish fertility or lack thereof.

It seems that worst case scenario is probably being on Clomid/HCG for an extended amount of time to get sperm production up. Hopefully can have a child; if TRT is necessary after that; then it is what it is I guess.

 

[PapaNoel]

What I mean by not to normal value is for example, say you were 900ng/dl before doing any gear. A normal cycle and PCT could very well recover you back to 900ng/dl.
You however should not expect to reach 900ng/dl again. I'm not gonna speculate in how well you'll recover as it'll be vastly different from person to person but even with natural production being fantastic but maybe not what you'll want in life and you'll jump on TRT.

But all of this is about getting your gf pregnant right?
The reason I say 3 months is because that's the standard treatment length a doctor/endo would try out. Its not uncommon for it to be 6 months either. Same for treating gyno symptoms, 4-6 weeks just won't cut it.
I'd also throw in some proviron, its disputed if it helps infertility but it is used when something is damaged, bit wasted and thoughts are spinning a bit, can't remember what..... But it would definitely help your restart. Just don't go high doses as that will suppress you instead but like 25mg ed is fine. I did that in my restart and saved my libido and sanity...

About your list, I would put 4 as number 1.
Do you even know how your sperm quality looks as of now?

 

[Sharkweek]

What I mean by not to normal value is for example, say you were 900ng/dl before doing any gear. A normal cycle and PCT could very well recover you back to 900ng/dl.
You however should not expect to reach 900ng/dl again. I'm not gonna speculate in how well you'll recover as it'll be vastly different from person to person but even with natural production being fantastic but maybe not what you'll want in life and you'll jump on TRT.

But all of this is about getting your gf pregnant right?
The reason I say 3 months is because that's the standard treatment length a doctor/endo would try out. Its not uncommon for it to be 6 months either. Same for treating gyno symptoms, 4-6 weeks just won't cut it.

About your list, I would put 4 as number 1.
Do you even know how your sperm quality looks as of now?

I understand; I am in my 30's also, so it will likely be decreasing some naturally also. I (like an idiot) never got any kind of pre-cycle bloodwork done; so I will never really know to what degree I recover.

I have an appointment scheduled for a sperm test in about a week and a half; it was the earliest I could get in to a new doctor.

 

[PapaNoel]

If its all about getting GF pregnant, i'd extend the HCG treatment to double and also double PCT length, doing this in conjunction with a fertility test, holding off on the blood works.
But this is all me, you seem to have researched and have a set plan and I see nothing bad with it, you're just very eager and I understand that but try to put it in perspective 4 years vs weeks, its not a realistic approach.
With that said, i'm sure you'll be able to knock your gf up, from my understanding its rare to get infertile by testerone use alone. Totally different subject about recovering testo levels though but that's not the topic at hand?

 

[IMT staff]

If you run your HCG high enough you will get pregnant on that don't really even need SERM

 

[IMT staff]

Having higher test levels from HCG is not indicative of a un-damaged HPTA at all. The HCG is telling your balls to produce T and upon cessation of HCG your levels may plummet if you still aren't producing enough LH and FSH on your own. This is a common occurrence during Medical Practice in which the physician will typically resort to TRT if the patient can't produce testosterone on their own after a year of HCG therapy.

Honestly I am beginning to wonder if SERM's do more harm than good. Have seen lots of people do HCG mono therapy for 6 months and come off and recover well.

Sometimes when men transition to SERM treatment and then get labs 30 days after cessation we see their TT plummet. For some reason it is a lot easier to stimulate the pituitary than it is the testes.

HCG does stimulate the pituitary, but only once TT levels drop below 400 ng/dl. This is why a lot of PCT's fail because they start HCG too soon before exogenous T has cleared and it doesn't have time to do its job.

Personally if I was doing a restart I might consider doing HCG and peptides and tapering the HCG and staying on the peptides for 2 months then discontinuing.

SERM's are really toxic. Once receptor modulation has ceased, things go right back to how they were.

We have seen this work really well for some of our clients. We have probably done over 1,000 restarts now. Admittedly not many without SERM treatment, because men are afraid to step away from the norm and try it. But the success rate is def better.

Just my 2 cents

 

[PapaNoel]

If you run your HCG high enough you will get pregnant on that don't really even need SERM

I've even read 2000-5000iu per day is not uncommon treatment for fertility issues. Is this true?
This topic is really close to my heart as I've always wanted kids and finally found someone who could very well end up being the mother of my children(in a few years....) but i'm on cycle now (she's a ex-nurse and totally cool with all of it, even the needles.)
But i'm very afraid of the potential damage I might be doing to my fertility "levels" so to speak.

 

[IMT staff]

True, thats why a normal vial of HCG is 5,000 IU. It is intended to be a single dose vial. Thats the big fiasco with compounding pharmacies and the FDA, its all about that now being a multi-dose vial.

We personally don't see the need to go over 2k, and 1500 seems to be a great dosage.

PS desensitization is a myth

Thanks. This is what I thought and what you describe is probably a similar experience of others who claim hCG desensitization. The point being that the data is anecdotal reports of subjective measures. In my own experience, hCG administration for many causes a subjective feeling within the testicles. many even describe it as similar to "blue balls." The lack or absence of the subjective symptoms within the testicles over time does not translate into hCG desensitization.

In the area of hCG desensitization, there are no reports in the literature to support this effect clinically, both subjective and objective. That hCG desensitization occurs in the laboratory is unrefuted. It does not occur clinically.

hCG desensitization DOES NOT occur clinically. Anyone who says it does, does not know the literature, is trying to advance a myth, and probably believes in the hCG diet! Can hCG desensitization occur? Absolutely. There are many animal models demonstrating this effect, but, again, this effect is NOT seen clinically in FDA approved doses or less. Is there evidence for hCG desensitization in humans for hCG doses higher than FDA approved levels? Indirectly, a single study in doses over 5,000 IU exploring testicular response to hCG administration reveals a leveling of T production.

https://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/156877-hcg-desensitization-does-exist.html

 

[scorob777]

Reading all this has been very informative. Lots of opinions, and some real clinical knowledge too.

The one common theme is HCG is your best approach, and both duration and dosage is important. You've seen 1,000 EOD or 500 ED is an effective dose, and also seen this might be needed for 3-5 months.

So for me the take away is run the HCG for much much longer than you had planned. I know you can get it from PSL in a matter of less than a week, so really there is no excuse to not getting more. And it's cheap too.

As for blood testing, the female panel from PrivateMDlabs is $60 with their 15% discount code which is easy to get. No harm in doing that multiple times to see what aspects of your system are working, etc. The only shortcoming of that lab is it doesn't include the cholesterol and triglycerides.

 

[Sharkweek]

If you run your HCG high enough you will get pregnant on that don't really even need SERM

It seems like my current dose of 500IU ED/1,000IU EOD is more than sufficient for this? You had talked about the HCG stimulating the pituitary if Test levels are low enough. Wouldn't the HCG cause test levels to be higher than 400ng/dl if taken at the above mentioned dose?

My test levels from exogenous test have been below that 400ng/dl for roughly 10-12 days at this point. really anxious to get the sperm test done and see where I'm at in that regard.

Reading all this has been very informative. Lots of opinions, and some real clinical knowledge too.

The one common theme is HCG is your best approach, and both duration and dosage is important. You've seen 1,000 EOD or 500 ED is an effective dose, and also seen this might be needed for 3-5 months.

So for me the take away is run the HCG for much much longer than you had planned. I know you can get it from PSL in a matter of less than a week, so really there is no excuse to not getting more. And it's cheap too.

As for blood testing, the female panel from PrivateMDlabs is $60 with their 15% discount code which is easy to get. No harm in doing that multiple times to see what aspects of your system are working, etc. The only shortcoming of that lab is it doesn't include the cholesterol and triglycerides.

I am hearing much the same thing; my only real confusion is how to determine when I have been on the hcg long enough? I guess like what factor/blood value are we looking for to know that it's been effective? Do I want to taper the HCG off as IMT mentioned above? I know how many would do it for a basic PCT, I'm not sure that is the appropriate action for me. On the other hand; if it works, it works?

I sort of assumed there would be a period after PCT where my body will be out of limbo until it can find whatever it's homeostasis level is at this point.

 

[PapaNoel]

My test levels from exogenous test have been below that 400ng/dl for roughly 10-12 days at this point. really anxious to get the sperm test done and see where I'm at in that regard.

To early to tell but 400ng/dl after 4 years isn't to bad, how old are you?

I am hearing much the same thing; my only real confusion is how to determine when I have been on the hcg long enough? I guess like what factor/blood value are we looking for to know that it's been effective? Do I want to taper the HCG off as IMT mentioned above? I know how many would do it for a basic PCT, I'm not sure that is the appropriate action for me. On the other hand; if it works, it works?
I sort of assumed there would be a period after PCT where my body will be out of limbo until it can find whatever it's homeostasis level is at this point.

Sadly there isn't a set in stone time frame or dose to determine how YOU will recover.
Personally, I can tell just by feeling my balls, its hard to describe but "functioning non steroid balls" are very hard and firm for me... On cycle they're softer than jelly.

 

[Sharkweek]

To early to tell but 400ng/dl after 4 years isn't to bad, how old are you?



Sadly there isn't a set in stone time frame or dose to determine how YOU will recover.
Personally, I can tell just by feeling my balls, its hard to describe but "functioning non steroid balls" are very hard and firm for me... On cycle they're softer than jelly.

I dont know what my actual test production is right now, but using a half-life calculator the test-e is almost totally out of my system. IMT above was saying hcg will stimulate the pituatary (I'm assuming Gnrh) when test levels are below 400ng/dl. I was just saying my levels from any exogenous test sources are well below that.

I'm 31. Balls are much more firm, much larger. Libido is still good, no ED, etc. I feel like my balls have to be making some testosterone. Strength hasn't really fallen off much if any, appetite is still good.

I think I am going to run out the rest of my HCG, run out the 6 weeks of serms, and see where I'm at. That will 27 days on HCG, and then 6-8 weeks of clomid/nolva.

Some say go longer, some say go shorter, some say after 4 years I'm screwed either way. I will continue to update with progress, as well as bloodwork when I get it done. I feel as though the recovery so far has been fairly promising, nothing to quantify that though. Just my general feeling.

 

[Argon Coagulator]

Honestly I am beginning to wonder if SERM's do more harm than good. Have seen lots of people do HCG mono therapy for 6 months and come off and recover well.

Sometimes when men transition to SERM treatment and then get labs 30 days after cessation we see their TT plummet. For some reason it is a lot easier to stimulate the pituitary than it is the testes.

HCG does stimulate the pituitary, but only once TT levels drop below 400 ng/dl. This is why a lot of PCT's fail because they start HCG too soon before exogenous T has cleared and it doesn't have time to do its job.

Personally if I was doing a restart I might consider doing HCG and peptides and tapering the HCG and staying on the peptides for 2 months then discontinuing.

SERM's are really toxic. Once receptor modulation has ceased, things go right back to how they were.

We have seen this work really well for some of our clients. We have probably done over 1,000 restarts now. Admittedly not many without SERM treatment, because men are afraid to step away from the norm and try it. But the success rate is def better.

Just my 2 cents

That wouldn't surprise me as Dr. Rand states that for PCT his clients do well with HCG and a little AI. He goes on to say that once your testis are up and running with the HCG, controlling estrogen with an AI afterwards for a few weeks will help sustain natural testosterone suggesting that high estrogen is the primary reason for post cycle testosterone inhibition once "shutdown" has been addressed.

 

[Argon Coagulator]

If you run your HCG high enough you will get pregnant on that don't really even need SERM

And to add to this, Sharkweek, if you run HCG consistently you can actually boost fertility while on TRT- you dont even need to come off. Fertility clinics will tell you to come off everything, but studies show 500iu EOD maintains intratesticular testosterone production above baseline levels while on 200mg of test. But hey, if you recover well after a 6-8 week PCT and feel fine then that's great too. However if your sperm is still below 15 million after PCT, I would hop on HCG 500-750iu EOD for 2-3 months before a re-test semen analysis. I recently tested 19 million sperm with good head shape and morphology while still on test and bold cyp, which I credit to consistent use of HCG. I hadn't been on HCG in over a month either, I'm 34 so it can be done!

 

[thatotherguy]

This is great thread. I am very interested in seeing what happens. Since I am interested in Cruise Cycle, want to know best way to combat after effects.

 

[Sharkweek]

That wouldn't surprise me as Dr. Rand states that for PCT his clients do well with HCG and a little AI. He goes on to say that once your testis are up and running with the HCG, controlling estrogen with an AI afterwards for a few weeks will help sustain natural testosterone suggesting that high estrogen is the primary reason for post cycle testosterone inhibition once "shutdown" has been addressed.

I agree with this, I am trying to error on the side of crashing estrogen as opposed to having too much. Obviously dont want either, but I'd rather have sore joints for a couple days than high estrogen at this point in time.

And to add to this, Sharkweek, if you run HCG consistently you can actually boost fertility while on TRT- you dont even need to come off. Fertility clinics will tell you to come off everything, but studies show 500iu EOD maintains intratesticular testosterone production above baseline levels while on 200mg of test. But hey, if you recover well after a 6-8 week PCT and feel fine then that's great too. However if your sperm is still below 15 million after PCT, I would hop on HCG 500-750iu EOD for 2-3 months before a re-test semen analysis. I recently tested 19 million sperm with good head shape and morphology while still on test and bold cyp, which I credit to consistent use of HCG. I hadn't been on HCG in over a month either, I'm 34 so it can be done!

I actually just listened to a YouTube video of dr rand last week where he went over this. He did seem to imply that being completely off is the most surefire way to get sperm production up and going however, so that's my current plan.

This is great thread. I am very interested in seeing what happens. Since I am interested in Cruise Cycle, want to know best way to combat after effects.

No real big updates right now, just finished my second vial of HCG, still feel decent. Strength is down slightly now as compared to on cycle. I havent pinned any test in 23 days now I believe.

So far my only pct meds have been:

Hcg: 1000IU ed for 5 days, then 1000 IU eod for 10 days.

AI: 1mg of adex EOD, and 25mg of asin EOD.

Serm: 20mg of nolvadex EOD (just as a gyno safeguard) not sure it's really doing anything, but I have a ton of nolva on hand, so I figured why not. I have never used hcg before, so I didnt want to get caught off guard with the estrogen side effects.

Getting bloodwork done Saturday morning (2 days from now).

Planning to run out my last 5000iu of HCG at 1000iu EOD, then the SERMS. I feel pretty decent overall, lost some weight, but nothing crazy. Considering doing the HCG at 500iu ED, I feel kind of a yo-yo effect doing it EOD. Might just be placebo, anyone else felt that way?

 

[PapaNoel]

AI: 1mg of adex EOD, and 25mg of asin EOD.

What the fuck?
That's insanely much, stop it immediately....
You wouldn't even take that much on 600mg testo...
A normal dose is 1mg adex PER WEEK, you're taking 3.x mg per week on top of 175 mg aromasin per week...
You're gonna crash, and crash hard.

 

[Sharkweek]

I did back that down some, had some creaky joints coming on. I always took 1mg of adex for every 250mg of test/androgen I was taking. I basically just cut out the adex for the moment.

I really feel like I have much more estrogen on the HCG than I did on 500mg of test e and 50mg of dbol/day.

I got bloods taken today, probably wont have results until Monday or Tuesday I'd guess.

 

[PapaNoel]

I really feel like I have much more estrogen on the HCG than I did on 500mg of test e and 50mg of dbol/day.

High doses of HCG will spike your estrogen pretty hard but not to warrant double AI at triple doses, off cycle
The joints is one of the first signs of crashing, its not a fun experience whatsoever to crash your estrogen... I'd take high estrogen over low any time of the year.

 

[Sharkweek]

High doses of HCG will spike your estrogen pretty hard but not to warrant double AI at triple doses, off cycle
The joints is one of the first signs of crashing, its not a fun experience whatsoever to crash your estrogen... I'd take high estrogen over low any time of the year.

I'm normally 100% with you, just trying to be cautious after everything I've heard about high estrogen levels being extremely suppressive to endogenous test production. I'm honestly pretty ready to be off the HCG, I feel pretty ok, but I just feel like my mood/levels are always up and down. Maybe that's just me getting used to not being at a baseline of like 2000ng/dl though too...