Nicky_eye_lids
Olympic Bodybuilder
alot of my friends have had children while on gear with no issues,
PCT for coming off of 4 year cycle
- Thread starter Sharkweek
- Start date
Nicky_eye_lids
Olympic Bodybuilder
now the kids have many mental issues like depression, obesity, homosecuallity but thats another kettle of fish.
Mmm, i've read you should wait at least 5 years after stopping gear before trying to have kids to avoid such things.
Mycelium
New member
Making positive assertions requires quantitative and or qualitative data based on findings from scientifically sound studies/experiments with large populations. Usually double-blind placebo controlled studies/experiments with at least hundreds of participants or following individuals and their offspring for years.
Mycelium
New member
Or being some sort of "authority" such as a leading "insert doctor" in a field with decades of experience and vast knowledge of scientific research/discoveries/findings.
So roids make your kids fat depressed gay guys . . . . . I mean . . . . let that sink in and think about that. Roids cause your DNA in your sperm to be mutated into depressed fat gays dudes . . . .
Logical thought experiment would lead one to believe or at least hypothesize it would be something going on in the womb such as exposures to k own carcinogens/mutagen or exposure during post delivery development.
So roids make your kids fat depressed gay guys . . . . . I mean . . . . let that sink in and think about that. Roids cause your DNA in your sperm to be mutated into depressed fat gays dudes . . . .
Logical thought experiment would lead one to believe or at least hypothesize it would be something going on in the womb such as exposures to k own carcinogens/mutagen or exposure during post delivery development.
Argon Coagulator
New member
That's just America 2019. Has nothing to do with current or former gear use. Half the kids out there are gay/bi/transgender or are overweight and have mental problems nowadays. Just don't have kids period if you're concerned with that, because that's just the world we live in today.
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I feel this is mostly due to inadequate parenting.
A small update on the PCT:
My HCG order was confiscated in the mail going to my source, so I did not receive that.
Because I didnt have it, and it was going to be a couple weeks until I got more, I went ahead and started Clomid and Nolva last Tuesday at 50/20.
Been feeling pretty ok for the most part. Getting bloodwork done again this Saturday to see where TT, LH, and FSH levels are. Got my other 10,000IU of HCG yesterday, but dont really have a use for them now.
I had a pretty noticeable dip in strength last week, but also had food poisoning for a couple days, so that obviously didnt help. Strength and size Seems to be coming back slowly this week.
Planning to drop to 25/20 for another two weeks, then just nolva at 20 for another two weeks after that.
Non-aas related supplements I'm taking are just omega-3 fish oils, and ZMA. Any other suggestions for things to either help recovery or boost natty test levels once PCT is over. Considered taking some DHEA or DAA?
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Well, I got my blood results back. They are not very encouraging.
This results are following:
1000iu of hcg/day for 5 days
1000iu of hcg eod for 10 days
1500iu of hcg e3d for 9 days
11 days of clomid and nolva at 50/20mg.
Cliff notes:
TT is at 115
Lh and fsh are both still very low.
Estrogen is obviously crashed with no test production happening.
Looking for any thoughts on this. Do I need a higher SERM dose? Blood concentrations of clomid/nolva should still be on the way up given a 5-7 day half-life. Do you think my SERMS are just bunk or underdosed?
Or does it just need a bunch more time? I was really hoping to atleast see LH and FSH levels up in the median normal range. Maybe that wasnt realistic.
This results are following:
1000iu of hcg/day for 5 days
1000iu of hcg eod for 10 days
1500iu of hcg e3d for 9 days
11 days of clomid and nolva at 50/20mg.
Cliff notes:
TT is at 115
Lh and fsh are both still very low.
Estrogen is obviously crashed with no test production happening.
Looking for any thoughts on this. Do I need a higher SERM dose? Blood concentrations of clomid/nolva should still be on the way up given a 5-7 day half-life. Do you think my SERMS are just bunk or underdosed?
Or does it just need a bunch more time? I was really hoping to atleast see LH and FSH levels up in the median normal range. Maybe that wasnt realistic.
Go donate blood like yesterday... Unless you like getting strokes, brain hemorrhage, death and that sort of thing.... RBC, Hemoglobin and hematocrit are all WAY WAY to high and you should have donated blood weeks/months ago.....
Your liver is also under heavy attack from something, get it checked out.
Estrogen usually spikes in the absence of testosterone and not the other way around.
That's why you see people incorporate it into PCT. Didn't you eat like 2mg adex AND aromasin for a while?
The saturation dose for clomid is 49 mg per day, so increasing it will only increase bad side effects. It also takes about 10 days of ED dosing to reach a steady state for blood levels.
A normal PCT treatment is also 6 weeks.(In your specific case, i'd argue minimum 8-12 weeks, like an endo would try out....)
After that you check blood works minimum 3 months after discontinuing serms.
Then to be fair, you'd need about 6 more months AFTER discountinung serms to give your body a chance to truly recover... Meaning, this is a year long process... You need to have more patience. Don't forget you were ON for almost 200 fucking weeks bro...
Then and ONLY then can we start talking how your recovery went... Trying to figure it out as you go along with a fuckton of medicine in you, will tell you very little, if anything at all.
D-vitamin(I'd take 10k iu per day for a month) helps boost testo, you could take ZMA, Omega 3, D-vitamin and preferably a B-vitamin complex together.
Also buy NAC/Milk Thistle and help your liver values.
Your liver is also under heavy attack from something, get it checked out.
Estrogen usually spikes in the absence of testosterone and not the other way around.
That's why you see people incorporate it into PCT. Didn't you eat like 2mg adex AND aromasin for a while?
The saturation dose for clomid is 49 mg per day, so increasing it will only increase bad side effects. It also takes about 10 days of ED dosing to reach a steady state for blood levels.
A normal PCT treatment is also 6 weeks.(In your specific case, i'd argue minimum 8-12 weeks, like an endo would try out....)
After that you check blood works minimum 3 months after discontinuing serms.
Then to be fair, you'd need about 6 more months AFTER discountinung serms to give your body a chance to truly recover... Meaning, this is a year long process... You need to have more patience. Don't forget you were ON for almost 200 fucking weeks bro...
Then and ONLY then can we start talking how your recovery went... Trying to figure it out as you go along with a fuckton of medicine in you, will tell you very little, if anything at all.
D-vitamin(I'd take 10k iu per day for a month) helps boost testo, you could take ZMA, Omega 3, D-vitamin and preferably a B-vitamin complex together.
Also buy NAC/Milk Thistle and help your liver values.
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Mycelium
New member
And neither functions as an AI and the former gives you high estrogen symptoms from long term use. He's also only been on it for 11 days.
Your body strives for a balance or ratio if you will between estrogen and testosterone.
When you're low on either, the other increases. That's why people use aromasin in PCT, at least that's my understanding.
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I should go donate some blood; I haven't done so in probably 4 months. My last test the RBC, hemoglobin, and hematocrit were roughly the same as they are on this test; I thought they would drop off some coming off the AAS. My liver values really jumped from the previous labs; I assume from the clomid/nolva? At any rate; I will get some Milk Thistle and start taking that.
I'm fully agreeing with you that I think I just need more time off AAS to come back. FSH and LH came up from 0; so that's progress in the correct direction at least.
At this point; I am planning to run clomid/nolva out for 8 weeks in the following Manner:
50/20
50/20
50/20
25/20
25/20
25/20
20
20
I have currently been taking ZMA and omega-3 supplements. I will pickup some vitamins also. I haven't taken any AI in the past two weeks since I started Clomid/Nolva.
I believe in Males Testosterone is necessary for Estrogen. The only way Males can create estrogen is through aromatization I think. So tanked Test usually means Tanked estro I think.
Your rbc, hemoglobin and hematocrit will never go down by themselves. Its very important to donate regularly, every third month preferably.
The analogy is that your blood becomes thick like yoghurt and puts tremendous stress on all your organs, which can lead to strokes, brain hemorrhage, blood clots, high blood pressure, death etc etc.
Nah, something else is tanking your liver, are you taking any other medicine? Drinking alcohol? I prefer NAC over milk thistle but I do personally use both for the sake of it. Its mostly cause I have verified blood work that NAC works and works great.
Your body strives for a ratio between testo and estrogen, for example... Having low testo with high estrogen is the main cause for erectile dysfunction.
You are right in that you need aromatase enzyme to convert into estrogen but you are producing testerone bro. Estradiol is also abundant in several areas of your body.
I have always had a rise in estrogen after finishing a cycle, not having it tanked.
The AI is the reason for your crashed estrogen, 2 weeks is nowhere near enough to raise it, especially off cycle.
The analogy is that your blood becomes thick like yoghurt and puts tremendous stress on all your organs, which can lead to strokes, brain hemorrhage, blood clots, high blood pressure, death etc etc.
Nah, something else is tanking your liver, are you taking any other medicine? Drinking alcohol? I prefer NAC over milk thistle but I do personally use both for the sake of it. Its mostly cause I have verified blood work that NAC works and works great.
Your body strives for a ratio between testo and estrogen, for example... Having low testo with high estrogen is the main cause for erectile dysfunction.
You are right in that you need aromatase enzyme to convert into estrogen but you are producing testerone bro. Estradiol is also abundant in several areas of your body.
I have always had a rise in estrogen after finishing a cycle, not having it tanked.
The AI is the reason for your crashed estrogen, 2 weeks is nowhere near enough to raise it, especially off cycle.
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Thanks for taking the time to help me along. I am not taking anything else; and have had 1 glass of wine in the past 3 weeks. I was sick about a week ago; any chance that would effect the liver values?
I guess just waiting for all of the AI to clear and the SERMs to continue working on the LH and FSH levels.
Mycelium
New member
Low T will not cause elevated E as a standard. Dropping gear and not taking and AI while it is clearing and levels are dropping could lead to increase E with no AI but it takes T to make E so crashed or low T will equal low E unless there is a medical reason or something.
Elevated E causes a shut down of the HPTA system. Low T with high E is exactly where my medications had me since the meds make my liver create more P450 enzymes which includes aromatase. I over aromatize so ended up with lowT tits and lnow live that TRT life. All my labs were even withing ranges causing a lack of treatment from the VA.
scorob777
New member
The epidemic of kids confused about their sex or gender is a result of endocrine distrupting chemicals in our diets and environment. Glyphosate is a key one, but there are many others. We will eventually see class action lawsuits similar to asbestos and tobacco for the chemical and food companies that peddle this shit. The Bayer purchase of Monsanto will go down as one of the worst acquisitions in the history of the plant.
OP, you've been told repeatedly that you need more time and what I've seen is you've interrpreted that to mean a couple weeks more. The reality might be that you need to be on 1,500 IU HCG E3D for three months, six months, nine months, etc. Whatever it takes.
You seem to miss that he was taking double AI just 2 weeks ago...
His low T is not the reason for his low estrogen, if anything his very very high doses and duration of hCG would have spiked it regardless..... It's because his insanely high doses of adex and aromasin. Higher than you would take for 500mg / week, off cycle.
Mycelium
New member
I'm talking about your comment of low T causing spiked E not his situation. Testosterone + aromatase = estrogen. If testosterone is low or aromatase is low how can Estogen spike? That's a separate topic I'm talking about. Low T creating a spike in E.
If anything the low E should have caused his HPTA to kick in especially with low T unless there is damage and it isnt firing up to be specific with his case. that's what SERMS/PCT does is send a low/no E signal. It's a negative feedback loop.
If anything the low E should have caused his HPTA to kick in especially with low T unless there is damage and it isnt firing up to be specific with his case. that's what SERMS/PCT does is send a low/no E signal. It's a negative feedback loop.
You are aware the aromatase enzyme is not created from testerone, right? It's the catalyst for the conversion for several things, one being testosterone to estradiol but it exists in various places in your body. And you also have factors that increases the amount of the enzyme.
So that explains your question about "low" aromatase and his testerone? Well, the hCG treatment for one in combination with clomid?
So that explains your question about "low" aromatase and his testerone? Well, the hCG treatment for one in combination with clomid?
Mycelium
New member
Aromatase creates estrogen from testosterone by way of aromatozation. There has to be aromatase as well as testosterone. Testosterone + Aromatase = estrogen production.
Yes factors increase aromatase such as obesity and antiepileptic drugs such as the ones I've taken for 10 years that elevate P450 liver enzymes which include aromatase that led to me growing tits.
His testosterone is low. Less testosterone to interact with aromatase = less aromatozation which = less estrogen.
Clomid competes with estrogen so with low estrogen I'm not sure how that point is even relevant.
I have posted a reference that shows localized estrogen production inside the testicles but states it is for localized use.
""""""In males, E2 production requires aromatase (Cyp19a1), a ubiquitous NADPH cytochrome P450 reductase enzyme (117). The testis was known to be involved in estrogen synthesis for years (769), but early studies focused on various T metabolites (49,*186,*533,*591). Despite descriptions of E2 binding in both testis and epididymis (161–163), well into the 1990s E2 was not considered a major regulator of male reproduction, at least in adults (reviewed in Ref.*292), and estrogen binding activity was considered a remnant of developmental processes influenced by estrogen action (260,*261,*456).
Initial work suggested that FSH-stimulated Sertoli cells are primary sources of estrogen in immature males, while LH-stimulated Leydig cells are the primary source in adult testis, as they express more aromatase than adult Sertoli cells (113,*275,*377,*385,*405,*501,*502,*533,*591,*700). However, in 1993, aromatase expression in adult testicular germ cells was first reported (496). Aromatase was localized in Golgi of round spermatids and throughout the cytoplasm of elongating and late spermatids (Figure 1). Confirmed by Western and Northern analysis, aromatase activity in germ cells was comparable to that in Leydig cells (115,*328,*329,*496). In testis, the proximal promoter II regulates aromatase transcription, but numerous transcription factors drive this expression in a cell-specific manner, with Sertoli and germ cells showing specificity differing from Leydig cells (275).""""""
Estrogens in Male PhysiologyPaul S. Cooke,*Manjunatha K. Nanjappa,*CheMyong Ko,*Gail S. Prins, and*Rex A. Hess
Published Online:24 MAY 2017https://doi.org/10.1152/physrev.00018.2016
Yes factors increase aromatase such as obesity and antiepileptic drugs such as the ones I've taken for 10 years that elevate P450 liver enzymes which include aromatase that led to me growing tits.
His testosterone is low. Less testosterone to interact with aromatase = less aromatozation which = less estrogen.
Clomid competes with estrogen so with low estrogen I'm not sure how that point is even relevant.
I have posted a reference that shows localized estrogen production inside the testicles but states it is for localized use.
""""""In males, E2 production requires aromatase (Cyp19a1), a ubiquitous NADPH cytochrome P450 reductase enzyme (117). The testis was known to be involved in estrogen synthesis for years (769), but early studies focused on various T metabolites (49,*186,*533,*591). Despite descriptions of E2 binding in both testis and epididymis (161–163), well into the 1990s E2 was not considered a major regulator of male reproduction, at least in adults (reviewed in Ref.*292), and estrogen binding activity was considered a remnant of developmental processes influenced by estrogen action (260,*261,*456).
Initial work suggested that FSH-stimulated Sertoli cells are primary sources of estrogen in immature males, while LH-stimulated Leydig cells are the primary source in adult testis, as they express more aromatase than adult Sertoli cells (113,*275,*377,*385,*405,*501,*502,*533,*591,*700). However, in 1993, aromatase expression in adult testicular germ cells was first reported (496). Aromatase was localized in Golgi of round spermatids and throughout the cytoplasm of elongating and late spermatids (Figure 1). Confirmed by Western and Northern analysis, aromatase activity in germ cells was comparable to that in Leydig cells (115,*328,*329,*496). In testis, the proximal promoter II regulates aromatase transcription, but numerous transcription factors drive this expression in a cell-specific manner, with Sertoli and germ cells showing specificity differing from Leydig cells (275).""""""
Estrogens in Male PhysiologyPaul S. Cooke,*Manjunatha K. Nanjappa,*CheMyong Ko,*Gail S. Prins, and*Rex A. Hess
Published Online:24 MAY 2017https://doi.org/10.1152/physrev.00018.2016