PCT for coming off of 4 year cycle

[Argon Coagulator]

I'm normally 100% with you, just trying to be cautious after everything I've heard about high estrogen levels being extremely suppressive to endogenous test production. I'm honestly pretty ready to be off the HCG, I feel pretty ok, but I just feel like my mood/levels are always up and down. Maybe that's just me getting used to not being at a baseline of like 2000ng/dl though too...

Yeah welcome back to reality where your mood fluctuates and stuff actually bothers you. Expect to be reminded what it feels like to no longer be impervious to stress. Dr. Rand is awesome, he states that coming off is best for fertility but you can also do well on TRT but maybe lowering the dose from 200mg down to 100mg. 1k iu EOD of HCG is excessive which is why you're experiencing so much estrogenic activity. Dr. Rand cautions against going above 500iu/day. In other words, 500iu per day is better than 1000iu EOD as far as estrogenic activity, but in all reality 500iu EOD is efficacious in his experience.

 

[PapaNoel]

Who is this Dr Rand, nobody has ever mentioned before and why is he the holy grail of bro science?
He has done clinical trials? Peer reviewed? Actual research? Something except his word?

 

[Sharkweek]

Who is this Dr Rand, nobody has ever mentioned before and why is he the holy grail of bro science?
He has done clinical trials? Peer reviewed? Actual research? Something except his word?

https://www.google.com/search?q=dr+...droid-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

He's an MD that specializes in TRT, Fertility, etc. He has also used steroids in the past, and appears to be on a pretty healthy TRT program.

I'm not sure he's the Holy Grail, but he does seem pretty knowledgable with a decent amount of clinical history to back up most of it.

 

[thatotherguy]

Those are good videos.

 

[PapaNoel]

So 5 minutes of reading his bullshit webpage i can tell you, don't take what he says as gospel...
He's just wanting to sell treatment, similar to IMT here, shit, I'm even sure the IMT team is far more knowledge then this dude.

And link the clinical trials, because I can't find any on this own webpage.
Because the only thing I can find is a bunch of people getting together to discuss how to sell more TRT treatment and semi label it as some input in a medical journal, but no clinical trials.

 

[PapaNoel]

Just these 3 statements tells me he's full of shit.

"There is no scientific basis for any age-specific recommendations against the use of testosterone therapy in adult males." Ohh really know? And how did he come to this conclusion? By having a bunch of "experts" decide this is the case with no evidence to support it.
"The evidence does not support increased risks of cardiovascular events with testosterone therapy." Ohh really? How did he come to this conclusion? The same way he did with everything else. Him and his buddies decided this is the case, with no evidence, research or clinical trials to support it.
The evidence does not support increased risk of prostate cancer with testosterone therapy." Do i have to say it again?

And yes, with his 35 years being a doctor in studying nutrition, herbs, supplements, a master of acupuncture and traditional chinese medicine, he should be held to a higher standard than bro science.
I'm sure he believes in the effectiveness of rhino horns, its classic in chinese medicine.

I'm rolling on the floor laughing right now lol....

 

[IMT staff]

I don't know much about the guy but he is right about the evidence not supporting increased cardiovascular risk with testosterone, in fact it actually decreases cardio vascular risk:


Evidence on Testosterone Therapy Does Not Support Cardiac Risk

Study of 83,000 veterans finds cardiovascular benefits to testosterone replacement

Testosterone in men with hypogonadism and high cardiovascular risk, Pros

The BS heart attack studies by et al have been asked to be removed from the literature by 100 different organizations. There are many things wrong with the "retrospective" study but the biggest thing that was found to be incorrect was that 20% of the data actually came from women not men.

He is also right about prostate cancer, not only does proper testosterone levels not cause prostate cancer, it actually decreases your risk of aggressive disease by 50%.

In the study, researchers found that, as a group, men prescribed testosterone for longer than a year had no overall increase in risk of prostate cancer and, in fact, had their risk of aggressive disease reduced by 50 percent.

Study suggests testosterone therapy does not raise risk of aggressive prostate cancer

Not sure what you mean by "just wanna sell programs like IMT here"? I didn't get into this business to sell stuff and make money, I got into this business because we realized all this stuff a long time ago, and we are passionate about it, so we want the truth to be heard and to help men all over the country realize just about everything they have been told about TRT is wrong.

We were one of the first ones to call out et al's BS studies:

Testosterones Bad Rap

 

[PapaNoel]

Are you a business or not IMT?
Whats the purpose of the company?
To sell products and directly and indirectly help people?
Just like big pharma and just like this Rand dude, so when I read his bullshit, it's clear that most of the information is biased towards selling more products.
I never implied you do the same, i'm sorry if that's how you took it.

Nothing wrong with making money though

 

[thatotherguy]

I don't know much about the guy but he is right about the evidence not supporting increased cardiovascular risk with testosterone, in fact it actually decreases cardio vascular risk:


Evidence on Testosterone Therapy Does Not Support Cardiac Risk

Study of 83,000 veterans finds cardiovascular benefits to testosterone replacement

Testosterone in men with hypogonadism and high cardiovascular risk, Pros

The BS heart attack studies by et al have been asked to be removed from the literature by 100 different organizations. There are many things wrong with the "retrospective" study but the biggest thing that was found to be incorrect was that 20% of the data actually came from women not men.

He is also right about prostate cancer, not only does proper testosterone levels not cause prostate cancer, it actually decreases your risk of aggressive disease by 50%.



Study suggests testosterone therapy does not raise risk of aggressive prostate cancer

Not sure what you mean by "just wanna sell programs like IMT here"? I didn't get into this business to sell stuff and make money, I got into this business because we realized all this stuff a long time ago, and we are passionate about it, so we want the truth to be heard and to help men all over the country realize just about everything they have been told about TRT is wrong.

We were one of the first ones to call out et al's BS studies:

Testosterones Bad Rap

This is good information.

 

[scorob777]

Everyone has to eat, and we all need to make money.

In my business the standard line is safety is our #1 priority. Bullshit, making enough profit to stay alive and fight another day is the #1 priority. But you can't ever say that.

 

[IMT staff]

No I get it, if it didn't make money I couldn't do it. But I didnt get into the business to make money, I got into the business cause I believe in it, and pride myself in telling people accurate information.

We would never give anyone bad information as implied to make a sale.

Sounds like some are not convinced yet, and need some more experience, and that you don't understand TRT as well as you think you do.

A lot of these people you see have been clients of ours over the years.

 

[casanovaaa]

Are you a business or not IMT?
Whats the purpose of the company?
To sell products and directly and indirectly help people?
Just like big pharma and just like this Rand dude, so when I read his bullshit, it's clear that most of the information is biased towards selling more products.
I never implied you do the same, i'm sorry if that's how you took it.

Nothing wrong with making money though

hes a sponsor numbnuts leave the man be.

 

[thatotherguy]

hes a sponsor numbnuts leave the man be.

Even for me years ago. I thought of TRT and was skeptical. Now I am taking the leap with the board sponsor.

 

[Sharkweek]

Got blood results back. This was from 1000iu/eod of hcg, and 25mg of nolva EOD, along with my AI.

Total test: 359 ng/dl (264-916)
Lh: .1 (1.7-9.6)
FSH: <.02 (1.5-12.4).
Estradiol: 17.3 (7.6-42.6).

Everything is roughly where I expected, I am slightly concerned that total test is on the lower end even with a decent amount of HCG. Though I have no idea what my baseline levels ever were. Does anyone have any thoughts one way or another?

I'm planning to finish out the week on HCG, then begin the nolva/clomid at 50/20. Any thoughts one way or another there?

I feel like my testicles have been basically the same size for about a week now, they don't seem to get sore following the HCG, so I feel like the HCG has basically done what it can at this point, and it makes sense to start the pituitary/hypothalamus side of things.

 

[PapaNoel]

Its pretty low, you are right.
I'm about 450-500 myself. (Which is about 100-150 too low for my age)
Then we have monsters like JP who is at 900 at over the age of 60 lol...

 

[IMT staff]

Why are you taking a SERM with HCG? It is counterproductive. There is no reason to take them together.

Also there is no reason to dose HCG that often, the most you want to ever dose is 3x per week. HCG has a bi-phasic pattern.

Basically what this means is when you inject HCG there is testosterone stimulation and then the testes go in to a refractory period for up to 72 hours. Then from the initial shot, more testosterone will be produced but just a lower amount.

So if you are injecting HCG during that period you are wasting your HCG.

 

[scorob777]

Got blood results back. This was from 1000iu/eod of hcg, and 25mg of nolva EOD, along with my AI.

Total test: 359 ng/dl (264-916)
Lh: .1 (1.7-9.6)
FSH: <.02 (1.5-12.4).
Estradiol: 17.3 (7.6-42.6).

Everything is roughly where I expected, I am slightly concerned that total test is on the lower end even with a decent amount of HCG. Though I have no idea what my baseline levels ever were. Does anyone have any thoughts one way or another?

I think this is valuable information. It shows you are making some test, but not much. Conclusion here is you need a lot more time on HCG. Your balls are only just starting to work again

LH and FSH still about zero. They are not being suppressed by your estrogen or test levels, so to me this says you are still shut down hard. SERMS might help now, but I'd lean toward a lot more time on HCG

Estradiol - I'm surprised you have this much with all the AI you were taking, which was way way too much.

I think you are jumping the gun getting off HCG and going to SERMS, but that is a novice view.

 

[PapaNoel]

Just imagine how high his estro would have been without taking that much.
Aromasin is almost impossible to crash on, 25mg is a lot but not too much with HCG treatment.

 

[Sharkweek]

Why are you taking a SERM with HCG? It is counterproductive. There is no reason to take them together.

Also there is no reason to dose HCG that often, the most you want to ever dose is 3x per week. HCG has a bi-phasic pattern.

Basically what this means is when you inject HCG there is testosterone stimulation and then the testes go in to a refractory period for up to 72 hours. Then from the initial shot, more testosterone will be produced but just a lower amount.

So if you are injecting HCG during that period you are wasting your HCG.

The only reason I am taking the nolvadex is to be preventative for Gyno, I have been pretty sensitive to estrogen in the past, and was concerned about the HCG causing gyno. I have 3 injections of HCG left, you would suggest doing them every 3 days?

Its pretty low, you are right.
I'm about 450-500 myself. (Which is about 100-150 too low for my age)
Then we have monsters like JP who is at 900 at over the age of 60 lol...

I'm hopefuly that it is still on the way up; especially given the above info from IMT.

I think this is valuable information. It shows you are making some test, but not much. Conclusion here is you need a lot more time on HCG. Your balls are only just starting to work again

LH and FSH still about zero. They are not being suppressed by your estrogen or test levels, so to me this says you are still shut down hard. SERMS might help now, but I'd lean toward a lot more time on HCG

Estradiol - I'm surprised you have this much with all the AI you were taking, which was way way too much.

I think you are jumping the gun getting off HCG and going to SERMS, but that is a novice view.

I agree that it is valuable; as I replied above I am hopeful that the extra 10-12 days past that blood sample will have them continuing to rise. I felt wayy more estrogenic on 1000IU of HCG than I ever did on a gram of anabolics. Not sure if that is Atypical, but that is how I felt.

Prior to the blood sample I had run:

5 days at 1000IUday, and then another 10 days at 1000IU/EOD. for a total of 15 days.

Post blood sample I will have ran 4 days at 1000IU EOD, and then another 9 days at 1000IU E3D for a total of 13 days plus an additional couple days for the half-life bleed-down. So the blood sample was (time-wise) really only half-way through my HCG treatment. From your previous comments you would suggest running the HCG out for another month or so? I would be curious on IMT's thoughts on this also. If anyone would want to PM me PSL's info I would consider picking up some more if deemed necessary.

It seems to me that if I get my natural LH and FSH levels up and going here that recovery would continue? Is the HCG that much more potent than natural LH and FSH? Apologize if these are dumb questions. Thank you all for the comments.

 

[IMT staff]

Why are you stopping HCG though if your TT is not optimal yet? As suggested by others, you need to stay on HCG for a while longer and increase the dosage. I wouldn't worry about the whole E2 thing, it is widely touted, but rarely seen clinically. I wouldn't take that until I was done with HCG, if estrogen is a problem, you control it with anastrozole so that it can optimize your free t.

Tamox just blocks the receptors, it doesn't do much and is pretty toxic.